12 ms·

I am so saddened to hear that the country I pledged allegiance to as a child is now being accused of human rights abuses by Amnesty International :(

by pvnick 13y ago

jrockway 13y ago
This is not a new thing. The prisons in the US are used as a model for countries wishing to gain the status "third world".
- SEJeff 13y ago
  You know... Most prisons in the US (non-maximum security) are more like hotels with free gyms, TVs, college class work, and Internet. Some of them where the non-violent white collar criminals go are seen almost (jokingly of course) as resorts. I disagree with your statement.
  - scythe 13y ago
    This is an extremely damaging myth and it needs to die. Prison conditions in the US are, by and large, deplorable. Worse than anywhere in Europe. Worse than most of Latin America. We look like Iran. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States#Prison_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Stat... >Examples of mistreatment claimed include prisoners left naked and exposed in harsh weather or cold air;[120] "routine" use of rubber bullets[121] and pepper spray;,[120][121][121] solitary confinement of violent prisoners in soundproofed cells for 23 or 24 hours a day;[120][122] and a range of injuries from serious injury to fatal gunshot wounds, with force at one California prison "often vastly disproportionate to the actual need or risk that prison staff faced."[121] Such behaviors are illegal, and, "Professional standards clearly limit staff use of force to that which is necessary to control prisoner disorder."[121] >Human Rights Watch raised concerns with prisoner rape and medical care for inmates.[123] In a survey of 1,788 male inmates in Midwestern prisons by Prison Journal, about 21% claimed they had been coerced or pressured into sexual activity during their incarceration and 7% claimed that they had been raped in their current facility.[124] Tolerance of serious sexual abuse and rape in United States prisons are consistently reported as widespread.[citation needed] It has been fought against by organizations such as Stop Prisoner Rape. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confinement-shane-bauer#13721250664231&action=collapse_widget&id=2473056 http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confine... >He's right about that. After being apprehended on the Iran-Iraq border, Sarah Shourd, Josh Fattal, and I were held in Evin Prison's isolation ward for political prisoners. Sarah remained there for 13 months, Josh and I for 26 months. We were held incommunicado. We never knew when, or if, we would get out. We didn't go to trial for two years. When we did we had no way to speak to a lawyer and no means of contesting the charges against us, which included espionage. The alleged evidence the court held was "confidential." >What I want to tell Acosta is that no part of my experience—not the uncertainty of when I would be free again, not the tortured screams of other prisoners—was worse than the four months I spent in solitary confinement. What would he say if I told him I needed human contact so badly that I woke every morning hoping to be interrogated? Would he believe that I once yearned to be sat down in a padded, soundproof room, blindfolded, and questioned, just so I could talk to somebody? >I want to answer his question—of course my experience was different from those of the men at California's Pelican Bay State Prison—but I'm not sure how to do it. How do you compare, when the difference between one person's stability and another's insanity is found in tiny details? Do I point out that I had a mattress, and they have thin pieces of foam; that the concrete open-air cell I exercised in was twice the size of the "dog run" at Pelican Bay, which is about 16 by 25 feet; that I got 15 minutes of phone calls in 26 months, and they get none; that I couldn't write letters, but they can; that we could only talk to nearby prisoners in secret, but they can shout to each other without being punished; that unlike where I was imprisoned, whoever lives here has to shit at the front of his cell, in view of the guards? It is a crazy, awful, and unnecessary black mark on America's human rights record. There is no excuse for this sort of thing, and it happens every day. Other first-world countries get along fine without systematic mistreatment of nearly eight people in a thousand.
  - gaelian 13y ago
    The fact that the US has a ridiculous amount of people in prison[1] seems like a fairly clear example of short sighted third world thinking to me. I know I personally find this fact rather concerning and I'm not even American. Some things should not be run for a profit. Discussion on the conditions of low-security prisons in the US should be secondary to discussions about why so many Americans are in prison in the first place, IMO. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics
    - mnemonicsloth 13y ago
      The US has a lot of people in prison because it's a big rich country with a diverse population. It's easy to commit crimes against people not like you, and easy to vote for stiff sentences against criminals not like you. And we have lots of money for police and prisons. This doesn't happen in Europe, for example, because European countries are ethnically homogeneous. The reason is WWII, which was really just the rest of WWI, which started because of tensions over ethnic minorities -- officially in the Balkans but more so in Austria-Hungary, which was really just a club of little states pretending to be one big one. As Tony Judt put it in his (fantastic) history of Europe after 1945, "The stability of postwar Europe is due in large part to the achievements of Hitler and Stalin."
      - anigbrowl 13y ago
        This doesn't happen in Europe, for example, because European countries are ethnically homogeneous. As a European, I feel pretty sure you've never been to Europe. Your assertions are almost comically inaccurate.
        snowwrestler 13y ago
        You don't have to go to Europe to look up population statistics. In fact if you live in a big international city like London or Paris, you might have a skewed perspective on the diversity of European nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe#By_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe#By_coun... Reading down the list, most European nations have around 80% or more majority ethnicity. Even those with lower majorities tend to have closely related minorities, e.g. Belgium with its Flemings and Walloons. By comparison the largest racial/ethnic group in the U.S., non-Latino whites, is under 65% and shrinking. All that said, I personally think the high rate of imprisonment in the U.S. reflects a lot of latent to overt racism and can't be defended. I think that was the GP's point but I'm not sure.
  - jrockway 13y ago
    Over on the other side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff's_Office_controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff's_Offic...
  - samstave 13y ago
    Gunna need actual proof. I do not see any jail anywhere as a "resort"
rdouble 13y ago
Amnesty International has always been critical of human rights abuses in the USA. Guantanamo, prison conditions, death penalty, treatment of refugees and immigrants, etc. http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports?country=334 http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports?country=334
- jonknee 13y ago
  Guantanamo and torture are pretty new for the USA.
  - slapshot 13y ago
    Trail of Tears, internment of the Japanese during World War II, slavery, suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War, Tuskeegee...
    - Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
      Slavery, World War II and Prison Camps in a time of peace! How are they comparable?
zanny 13y ago
Well, you had a lot of peer pressure in that pledge thing. If you sat and didn't pledge (hell, some teachers would force you to stand) your peers would become quite hostile. I find that odd though, since most children love being rebellious over frivolous things like that.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- casual_slacker 13y ago
  I rebelled against the pledge in my freshman year of high school. I don't remember any significant outcomes though, other than sitting through pledges until I started missing homeroom every day from ever-increasing laziness.
  - msutherl 13y ago
    Likewise, I stopped pledging freshman year of high school with no significant consequences. At some point the school stopped doing the pledge. On the other hand, a friend of mine was nearly suspended for wearing a military jacket with an upside-down American flag patch on the shoulder.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  It is so utterly bizarre to ask children that young to "pledge" their allegiance to something. I didn't even have a functional understanding of what those words meant until I was much older, before then they were just words that I had memorized. But because it was introduced so young, it only had the opportunity to appear strange in retrospect...
  - Cobbler 13y ago
    It is amazing how our institutions enroll their new members into their private agenda with intent to promote the longevity of the institution, in the long term, and their immediate survival, in the short term. In some strange way, we feed off our young and consume them, rather than nourish them. Sad
genwin 13y ago
It's cause & effect. Pledging allegiance to a flag rather than the Constitution promotes a 1984-like outcome.
- chc 13y ago
  I fail to see how it's better to pledge allegiance to a piece of paper than a piece of cloth. Surely both are symbolic of the general idea of "America" rather than the actual object.
  - genwin 13y ago
    The kids should be taught about the Constitution and that they should support and defend it (especially the spirit of it) against all enemies foreign and domestic, even the President. That would mean rejecting any obvious wrongdoing and ignoring flag-waving rhetoric. You can see a negative manifestation of the current Pledge when passing by an auto dealership, like this: http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Car-Dealership-with-flags.jpg http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/C...
  - dwd 13y ago
    The constitution is the "legal" document that ratifies the formation of the United States of America so it is far from symbolic. If you do away with it you would effectively dissolve the Union. In pledging allegiance to the constitution Snowdens' actions are only illegal in the sense that the current government has laws against what he did and justify those laws based on its constitutionally granted power. On the other hand every citizen has a responsibility to uphold the constitution, so his actions while illegal under the governments' laws are supported by the constitution and its founding principles. Amnesty is coming from a different position where they are making their judgement based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which the United States is a signatory. Articles 12 through 14 make for interesting reading. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12 http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12 EDIT: grammar
    - jimktrains2 13y ago
silvestrov 13y ago
It seems like the US government has made it into a large-scale version of the Streisand effect. If they had just ignored him, "oh, that crazy guy", ...
- e3pi 13y ago
  My take is the Streisand effect is this his best shield and his strategy spins on it. "Booz, Endgame, etc" are burning night oil, Russia, Beijing, Mossad also, on how to best take advantage with some possibly horrible false flag options as well. I believe all these experienced ``spy craft'' agencies are capable of imagining their own strategic desirable outcomes far greater than you or I, some dangerous, high-risk "ops" of unforeseen consequences not necessarily desirable for Edward.
Zimahl 13y ago
To be fair, it's not like the US hasn't had it share of human-rights abuses before, just historically less than some other countries. As for the Snowden extradition actually being a human-rights issue that's another story. I get that what he did was probably morally right but it was still illegal. I'm not sure why everyone is so shocked (SHOCKED, I say!) at the US wanting to prosecute him. That said, the US would be smart to just forget about the whole thing. The damage has been done and this continued talk about prosecution for Snowden is making him a martyr.
- Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
  It is legal to hang homosexuals in Iran. Jews were legally killed as far as the Nazis were concerned. Just become something is legal - in this case a wrong assertion because spying on citizens is against the constitution so it is illegal - does not mean that it complies with Human Rights.
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Quite a stretch between divulging state secrets to anti-semitism and homophobia combined with murder. The fact is that Snowden had the opportunity to quit when he found out what his work was going to entail or what his work was being applied to if he didn't approve. He continued to work and collect a paycheck. He knew he was breaking the law. As much whining goes on here at HN about the lack of personal responsibility it's ironic that there's a ton of people so willing to not face the facts about the situation.
ngoel36 13y ago
This is such bullshit. Snowden still committed a crime, he leaked confidential information belonging to the United States government. An action he knew was illegal. And this is the _sole_ reason why we revere him and the sacrifice he made. The action still holds consequences. When a piece of information is kept confidential, the US Government makes that initial decision to do so. Just because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak information at will, let alone be pardoned for it. Don't get me wrong. Snowden is a hero, a far braver man than I might have been. But he is still a criminal.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  Just because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak information at will, let alone be pardoned for it. I call bullshit. The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. What is "legal" or "illegal" is bigger than just what Congress, the President or the Supreme Court think. As they say, "An unjust law is no law at all".[1] Certainly an arguable point, but it's one I adhere to, and I think a lot of other HN'ers do as well. As well as a lot of Americans, and, for that matter, a lot of people period. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex
  - pfraze 13y ago
    True, but I'm not sure I'd say the laws against leaking government secrets are unjust. I'd say the various monitoring systems are potentially dangerous and unconstitutional, but those issues are separate from Snowden's charge. Also, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that the nature of the leak will factor into his trial, which is where it should be evaluated (right?).
    - drcube 13y ago
      Because secret treason courts are where justice is best served? In the very country being accused of civil rights violations by the defendant? And besides troop movements, names and locations of undercover operatives, and other specific information that could get people hurt or killed, why should the government keep secrets from its citizens for any reason? Or what does "consent of the governed" mean?
mindcrime 13y ago
Good point, but if anything, this should serve as a reminder of why children, who are probably too young to even really understand what a "pledge of allegiance" even is, should not be being led through such a ritual everytime they turn around in school or whatever. For that matter, it's probably a good warning against the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a nation-state at all.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > a good warning against the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a nation-state at all. Pleading allegiance is an ancient tradition inherited from Kingdoms and Lordships, where the individual was a mere subject of the crown or superior power. Why plead allegiance in our era ?
olalonde 13y ago
Today I learned that American kids need to pledge allegiance to their country. Or were you an immigrant and had to pledge allegiance in order to gain citizenship?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- stinky613 13y ago
  "Congressional sessions open with the recital of the Pledge, as do many government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations. It is also commonly recited in school at the beginning of every school day, although the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge, or punished for not doing so." "According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge of Allegiance reads: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The "under God" part was added to distinguish us from 'godless communists' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegience
- gajomi 13y ago
  It's a grade school ritual that usually takes place once a week or so at the start of the day. Some teachers found this to be silly and were eager to make sure kinds knew it was voluntary or would come up with a better way to spend the three minutes. But some teachers would take it very seriously...
snowwrestler 13y ago
I love the U.S., but it's not a perfect country. And Amnesy International has been pointing it out for as long as I can personally remember being aware of them. (nearing 25 years now) This is not nearly the first time AI has accused the U.S. of human rights abuses. Just look at the history of the death penalty in this country for one example.

I am so saddened to hear that the country I pledged allegiance to as a child is now being accused of human rights abuses by Amnesty International :(

by pvnick 13y ago

I am so saddened to hear that the country I pledged allegiance to as a child is now being accused of human rights abuses by Amnesty International :(

jrockway 13y ago

This is not a new thing. The prisons in the US are used as a model for countries wishing to gain the status "third world".

SEJeff 13y ago
You know... Most prisons in the US (non-maximum security) are more like hotels with free gyms, TVs, college class work, and Internet. Some of them where the non-violent white collar criminals go are seen almost (jokingly of course) as resorts. I disagree with your statement.
- scythe 13y ago
  This is an extremely damaging myth and it needs to die. Prison conditions in the US are, by and large, deplorable. Worse than anywhere in Europe. Worse than most of Latin America. We look like Iran. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States#Prison_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_Stat... >Examples of mistreatment claimed include prisoners left naked and exposed in harsh weather or cold air;[120] "routine" use of rubber bullets[121] and pepper spray;,[120][121][121] solitary confinement of violent prisoners in soundproofed cells for 23 or 24 hours a day;[120][122] and a range of injuries from serious injury to fatal gunshot wounds, with force at one California prison "often vastly disproportionate to the actual need or risk that prison staff faced."[121] Such behaviors are illegal, and, "Professional standards clearly limit staff use of force to that which is necessary to control prisoner disorder."[121] >Human Rights Watch raised concerns with prisoner rape and medical care for inmates.[123] In a survey of 1,788 male inmates in Midwestern prisons by Prison Journal, about 21% claimed they had been coerced or pressured into sexual activity during their incarceration and 7% claimed that they had been raped in their current facility.[124] Tolerance of serious sexual abuse and rape in United States prisons are consistently reported as widespread.[citation needed] It has been fought against by organizations such as Stop Prisoner Rape. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confinement-shane-bauer#13721250664231&action=collapse_widget&id=2473056 http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confine... >He's right about that. After being apprehended on the Iran-Iraq border, Sarah Shourd, Josh Fattal, and I were held in Evin Prison's isolation ward for political prisoners. Sarah remained there for 13 months, Josh and I for 26 months. We were held incommunicado. We never knew when, or if, we would get out. We didn't go to trial for two years. When we did we had no way to speak to a lawyer and no means of contesting the charges against us, which included espionage. The alleged evidence the court held was "confidential." >What I want to tell Acosta is that no part of my experience—not the uncertainty of when I would be free again, not the tortured screams of other prisoners—was worse than the four months I spent in solitary confinement. What would he say if I told him I needed human contact so badly that I woke every morning hoping to be interrogated? Would he believe that I once yearned to be sat down in a padded, soundproof room, blindfolded, and questioned, just so I could talk to somebody? >I want to answer his question—of course my experience was different from those of the men at California's Pelican Bay State Prison—but I'm not sure how to do it. How do you compare, when the difference between one person's stability and another's insanity is found in tiny details? Do I point out that I had a mattress, and they have thin pieces of foam; that the concrete open-air cell I exercised in was twice the size of the "dog run" at Pelican Bay, which is about 16 by 25 feet; that I got 15 minutes of phone calls in 26 months, and they get none; that I couldn't write letters, but they can; that we could only talk to nearby prisoners in secret, but they can shout to each other without being punished; that unlike where I was imprisoned, whoever lives here has to shit at the front of his cell, in view of the guards? It is a crazy, awful, and unnecessary black mark on America's human rights record. There is no excuse for this sort of thing, and it happens every day. Other first-world countries get along fine without systematic mistreatment of nearly eight people in a thousand.
- gaelian 13y ago
  The fact that the US has a ridiculous amount of people in prison[1] seems like a fairly clear example of short sighted third world thinking to me. I know I personally find this fact rather concerning and I'm not even American. Some things should not be run for a profit. Discussion on the conditions of low-security prisons in the US should be secondary to discussions about why so many Americans are in prison in the first place, IMO. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Population_statistics
  - mnemonicsloth 13y ago
    The US has a lot of people in prison because it's a big rich country with a diverse population. It's easy to commit crimes against people not like you, and easy to vote for stiff sentences against criminals not like you. And we have lots of money for police and prisons. This doesn't happen in Europe, for example, because European countries are ethnically homogeneous. The reason is WWII, which was really just the rest of WWI, which started because of tensions over ethnic minorities -- officially in the Balkans but more so in Austria-Hungary, which was really just a club of little states pretending to be one big one. As Tony Judt put it in his (fantastic) history of Europe after 1945, "The stability of postwar Europe is due in large part to the achievements of Hitler and Stalin."
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      This doesn't happen in Europe, for example, because European countries are ethnically homogeneous. As a European, I feel pretty sure you've never been to Europe. Your assertions are almost comically inaccurate.
      - snowwrestler 13y ago
        You don't have to go to Europe to look up population statistics. In fact if you live in a big international city like London or Paris, you might have a skewed perspective on the diversity of European nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe#By_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe#By_coun... Reading down the list, most European nations have around 80% or more majority ethnicity. Even those with lower majorities tend to have closely related minorities, e.g. Belgium with its Flemings and Walloons. By comparison the largest racial/ethnic group in the U.S., non-Latino whites, is under 65% and shrinking. All that said, I personally think the high rate of imprisonment in the U.S. reflects a lot of latent to overt racism and can't be defended. I think that was the GP's point but I'm not sure.
- jrockway 13y ago
  Over on the other side: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff's_Office_controversies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maricopa_County_Sheriff's_Offic...
- samstave 13y ago
  Gunna need actual proof. I do not see any jail anywhere as a "resort"

rdouble 13y ago

Amnesty International has always been critical of human rights abuses in the USA. Guantanamo, prison conditions, death penalty, treatment of refugees and immigrants, etc. http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports?country=334 http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports?country=334

jonknee 13y ago
Guantanamo and torture are pretty new for the USA.
- slapshot 13y ago
  Trail of Tears, internment of the Japanese during World War II, slavery, suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War, Tuskeegee...
  - Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
    Slavery, World War II and Prison Camps in a time of peace! How are they comparable?

zanny 13y ago

Well, you had a lot of peer pressure in that pledge thing. If you sat and didn't pledge (hell, some teachers would force you to stand) your peers would become quite hostile. I find that odd though, since most children love being rebellious over frivolous things like that.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
casual_slacker 13y ago
I rebelled against the pledge in my freshman year of high school. I don't remember any significant outcomes though, other than sitting through pledges until I started missing homeroom every day from ever-increasing laziness.
- msutherl 13y ago
  Likewise, I stopped pledging freshman year of high school with no significant consequences. At some point the school stopped doing the pledge. On the other hand, a friend of mine was nearly suspended for wearing a military jacket with an upside-down American flag patch on the shoulder.
jlgreco 13y ago
It is so utterly bizarre to ask children that young to "pledge" their allegiance to something. I didn't even have a functional understanding of what those words meant until I was much older, before then they were just words that I had memorized. But because it was introduced so young, it only had the opportunity to appear strange in retrospect...
- Cobbler 13y ago
  It is amazing how our institutions enroll their new members into their private agenda with intent to promote the longevity of the institution, in the long term, and their immediate survival, in the short term. In some strange way, we feed off our young and consume them, rather than nourish them. Sad

genwin 13y ago

It's cause & effect. Pledging allegiance to a flag rather than the Constitution promotes a 1984-like outcome.

chc 13y ago
I fail to see how it's better to pledge allegiance to a piece of paper than a piece of cloth. Surely both are symbolic of the general idea of "America" rather than the actual object.
- genwin 13y ago
  The kids should be taught about the Constitution and that they should support and defend it (especially the spirit of it) against all enemies foreign and domestic, even the President. That would mean rejecting any obvious wrongdoing and ignoring flag-waving rhetoric. You can see a negative manifestation of the current Pledge when passing by an auto dealership, like this: http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Car-Dealership-with-flags.jpg http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/C...
- dwd 13y ago
  The constitution is the "legal" document that ratifies the formation of the United States of America so it is far from symbolic. If you do away with it you would effectively dissolve the Union. In pledging allegiance to the constitution Snowdens' actions are only illegal in the sense that the current government has laws against what he did and justify those laws based on its constitutionally granted power. On the other hand every citizen has a responsibility to uphold the constitution, so his actions while illegal under the governments' laws are supported by the constitution and its founding principles. Amnesty is coming from a different position where they are making their judgement based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which the United States is a signatory. Articles 12 through 14 make for interesting reading. http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12 http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12 EDIT: grammar
  - jimktrains2 13y ago

silvestrov 13y ago

It seems like the US government has made it into a large-scale version of the Streisand effect. If they had just ignored him, "oh, that crazy guy", ...

e3pi 13y ago
My take is the Streisand effect is this his best shield and his strategy spins on it. "Booz, Endgame, etc" are burning night oil, Russia, Beijing, Mossad also, on how to best take advantage with some possibly horrible false flag options as well. I believe all these experienced ``spy craft'' agencies are capable of imagining their own strategic desirable outcomes far greater than you or I, some dangerous, high-risk "ops" of unforeseen consequences not necessarily desirable for Edward.

Zimahl 13y ago

To be fair, it's not like the US hasn't had it share of human-rights abuses before, just historically less than some other countries. As for the Snowden extradition actually being a human-rights issue that's another story. I get that what he did was probably morally right but it was still illegal. I'm not sure why everyone is so shocked (SHOCKED, I say!) at the US wanting to prosecute him. That said, the US would be smart to just forget about the whole thing. The damage has been done and this continued talk about prosecution for Snowden is making him a martyr.

Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
It is legal to hang homosexuals in Iran. Jews were legally killed as far as the Nazis were concerned. Just become something is legal - in this case a wrong assertion because spying on citizens is against the constitution so it is illegal - does not mean that it complies with Human Rights.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  Quite a stretch between divulging state secrets to anti-semitism and homophobia combined with murder. The fact is that Snowden had the opportunity to quit when he found out what his work was going to entail or what his work was being applied to if he didn't approve. He continued to work and collect a paycheck. He knew he was breaking the law. As much whining goes on here at HN about the lack of personal responsibility it's ironic that there's a ton of people so willing to not face the facts about the situation.

ngoel36 13y ago

This is such bullshit. Snowden still committed a crime, he leaked confidential information belonging to the United States government. An action he knew was illegal. And this is the _sole_ reason why we revere him and the sacrifice he made. The action still holds consequences. When a piece of information is kept confidential, the US Government makes that initial decision to do so. Just because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak information at will, let alone be pardoned for it. Don't get me wrong. Snowden is a hero, a far braver man than I might have been. But he is still a criminal.

mindcrime 13y ago
Just because it pisses the public off, that is no excuse for anyone to leak information at will, let alone be pardoned for it. I call bullshit. The government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. What is "legal" or "illegal" is bigger than just what Congress, the President or the Supreme Court think. As they say, "An unjust law is no law at all".[1] Certainly an arguable point, but it's one I adhere to, and I think a lot of other HN'ers do as well. As well as a lot of Americans, and, for that matter, a lot of people period. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_iniusta_non_est_lex
- pfraze 13y ago
  True, but I'm not sure I'd say the laws against leaking government secrets are unjust. I'd say the various monitoring systems are potentially dangerous and unconstitutional, but those issues are separate from Snowden's charge. Also, I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that the nature of the leak will factor into his trial, which is where it should be evaluated (right?).
  - drcube 13y ago
    Because secret treason courts are where justice is best served? In the very country being accused of civil rights violations by the defendant? And besides troop movements, names and locations of undercover operatives, and other specific information that could get people hurt or killed, why should the government keep secrets from its citizens for any reason? Or what does "consent of the governed" mean?

mindcrime 13y ago

Good point, but if anything, this should serve as a reminder of why children, who are probably too young to even really understand what a "pledge of allegiance" even is, should not be being led through such a ritual everytime they turn around in school or whatever. For that matter, it's probably a good warning against the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a nation-state at all.

ekianjo 13y ago
> a good warning against the whole idea of pledging allegiance to a nation-state at all. Pleading allegiance is an ancient tradition inherited from Kingdoms and Lordships, where the individual was a mere subject of the crown or superior power. Why plead allegiance in our era ?

olalonde 13y ago

Today I learned that American kids need to pledge allegiance to their country. Or were you an immigrant and had to pledge allegiance in order to gain citizenship?

deleted 13y ago
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stinky613 13y ago
"Congressional sessions open with the recital of the Pledge, as do many government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations. It is also commonly recited in school at the beginning of every school day, although the Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions that students cannot be compelled to recite the Pledge, or punished for not doing so." "According to the United States Flag Code, the Pledge of Allegiance reads: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The "under God" part was added to distinguish us from 'godless communists' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegience http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegience
gajomi 13y ago
It's a grade school ritual that usually takes place once a week or so at the start of the day. Some teachers found this to be silly and were eager to make sure kinds knew it was voluntary or would come up with a better way to spend the three minutes. But some teachers would take it very seriously...

snowwrestler 13y ago

I love the U.S., but it's not a perfect country. And Amnesy International has been pointing it out for as long as I can personally remember being aware of them. (nearing 25 years now) This is not nearly the first time AI has accused the U.S. of human rights abuses. Just look at the history of the death penalty in this country for one example.