14 ms·

Malibu homeowners foiled by $30K Kickstarter campaign

596 points by kirillzubovsky 13y ago

ambiate 13y ago
Finally, someone started taking my advice! This is very interesting. I never considered that homeowners might put up fake signs to detour the public. "Special logo thanks! ---> We'll put your logo / icon (280 x 280 px) PLUS a link to your website on a special thank you page in the app! Plus, an advance copy of the app. Estimated delivery: Jun 2013 " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094
- tnorthcutt 13y ago
  Although note that they're only putting the link in the app, not on a website, from what I can tell. So, not really buying a link in the traditional sense.
waterside81 13y ago
Just for a little context for those unfamiliar with Malibu. Some beaches are public, some are private and open only to those who live in particular neighbourhoods. The residents here are remarkably wealthy, we're talking Speilberg, Streisand, Geffen, and at times have hired their own private security to check people's ID to ensure they belong there. Broad Beach (I think) is public, but there's gates that block access to it requiring a key. So this app informs people which gates are legit and which ones are erected under false premise. Malibu problems.
- joonix 13y ago
  This is great. One day I was exploring Malibu and found one of these small narrow entranceways. They had a "guard" (guy in a yellow t-shirt) sitting on a foldable chair telling people it was a private beach. Pay these people no regard. Walk on to any beach you want. If the sand really belongs to the homeowner, they would have a fence surrounding it. Even if it happens to be private, the public should still have an easement to pass through. Remember, if they want to kick you out of their private beach, they need to call the police. They can't eject you with force.
  - gknoy 13y ago
    I imagine they CAN eject you with force, but if they do you will be able to sue them and probably also call the police. Recent events should help us remain mindful of the fact that ability and legality do not always go hand in hand -- be mindful of what can happen, not just what is legal, and you'll be safer. The same goes for being a pedestrian near cars. Physics trumps right of way.
    - jdmichal 13y ago
      I always phrase this as, 3000 pounds of steel always has right of way over 200 pounds of flesh.
      - jlarocco 13y ago
        I always keep this in mind when riding my bike. Just because I may legally have the right of way, it's not worth getting hit by a car to prove the point.
        anakha 13y ago
        Bein' right is not a bulletproof vest, Freddy. - Cop Land
  - adrr 13y ago
    Some of the private communities have fences that extend into the water line. I just walk past them. Fished surf in Malibu for 10 years, never had issues with people telling me i couldn't be there. Don't know why people want to hangout on Malibu beaches, the water smell like sewage since they lack a sewer system so everything is on septic tanks that overflow every time it rains. Also all the home owners let their dogs run free and they defecate everywhere without picking it up.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - 13y ago
- kirillzubovsky 13y ago
  Did you say that even public beaches require a key, which I assume only residents of the 'allowed' neighborhoods are able to attain?
  - waterside81 13y ago
    Yup, Broad Beach at one location has a gate requiring a key.
  - ChuckMcM 13y ago
    Of course keys aren't the only things that open locks. Back in the early 80's the "locks" on these gates were pretty basic 3 pin convenience locks and you could pick them very easily.
- waitwhatwhoa 13y ago
  "some beaches are private" is actually incorrect - all beaches in California are public from the water to the high tide line.
  - awm 13y ago
    I believe the only exception to this rule is Military property. Coronado (off of San Diego) beach is an example. Eventually you hit the navy base...
    - dfc 13y ago
      You were concerned a lot of people were going to read this and then try to have a picnic on the beach and watch the newest BUDS class? I don't know about Coronado but at Dam Neck there is a fence that extends at least 150+ feet into the water clearly delineating the base. If the fence is not a dead give away there are signs every 20 feet on the fence that make it crystal clear that the other side of the fence is not a public beach.
      - mbreese 13y ago
        Right, but it's good to point out the exceptions to the general rule that all beaches are accessible to the public. Especially in the context of Malibu where there are often wrong or misleading signs.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - waterside81 13y ago
    Yeah you're probably right - I've probably been conditioned to think some are private because the access is restricted.
    - beachstartup 13y ago
      he's not probably right, he's right. california beaches are public and protected. anyone can use them as long as they follow state law (regarding alcohol, fires, dogs, trash, etc.) the state takes it very seriously and that's why there's thousands of miles of clean shoreline for everyone to enjoy.
- dmckeon 13y ago
  For large values of "remarkably wealthy" - http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/mapping_15_of_tech_billionaire_larry_ellisons_malibu_properties_1.php http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/mapping_15_of_tech_bil...
  - fakeer 13y ago
    House 1:: Ellison bought his first house on Carbon Beach back in 2002 for $11.750117[1], according to PropertyShark. House 2: He bought Carbon house number two in 2003 for $11.500115[2] [1] & [2] Typo, right?
  - joonix 13y ago
    These properties seem undervalued. We're talking about absolute beachfront property a half hour from the #2 population center of the largest economy in the world in a beautiful area (that's on the US coast that faces Asia) with one of the best and rarest climates in the world. $10 million is chump change to a billionaire; consider the number of billionaires in the world and that the number rises yearly as more and more economies around the world develop and emerge. There are only 70 homes on Carbon Beach. Considering new Manhattan penthouses are selling for $90 million cash, it seems Ellison has spotted a bargain and dived straight in.
    - mturmon 13y ago
      I hate the implications, but you're right. I reached this enlightenment a few years ago after visiting the coastline around Nice and Cannes. It was clear where Malibu was going, eventually. I'm not saying it will be the same, but close enough.
    - dylangs1030 13y ago
      Small nitpick - Manhattan "penthouse" is a very vague term. You can buy penthouses with 10-30k square feet for $10 million or less in Manhattan. This is dependent on location and marketability, but they are still very high class locales. Unless you mean a penthouse literally less than a year old. Just wanted to share this info as a New Yorker.
- algorias 13y ago
  Hiring private security for that purpose is basically vigilantism, this should be illegal in any sane jurisdiction. Has anybody prosecuted this? Being a "Malibu problem" doesn't really make this matter any less relevant. It's precisely this kind of being above the law feeling of the wealthy that's at the root of many much larger problems.
  - 3pt14159 13y ago
    It depends on authority and proof. It is not vigiantism if the area is private and the guard is given authority by the neighbourhood association (or whoever owns/is in charge of the land). While the wealthy being above the law is a problem, the larger problem is the arbitrary nature of the law and the arbitrary nature of its enforcement. People wouldn't have to hire private guards if the law wasn't enforced. The police would enforce the law if there was less of it wasted on things that moral people do (like smoking pot).
    - algorias 13y ago
      I agree with your sentiment regarding arbitrary law enforcement and the huge waste of times it is to chase people smoking pot and similarly harmless things. However, you seem to imply (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this justifies the vigilantism. I find that idea to be very problematic on many fronts.
      - 3pt14159 13y ago
        Is it vigilantism for you to stop me from walking into your house? That is the crux of my argument. If you, or a group of people, rightfully own land then you should be free to pay guards to stop people to enter it.
        brewdad 13y ago
        But they don't rightfully own the land. This is hiring guards to keep people off the sidewalk in front of your house.
    - 13y ago
- Steko 13y ago
  There are also a lot of public walking paths[1] and unexpected stairways[2] in the Hollywood Hills that homeowners will put gates over or post signs claiming no public access, because, you know, fuck you got mine. - Bunny Ultramod on Metafilter (http://www.metafilter.com/129367/Hiding-Public-Land http://www.metafilter.com/129367/Hiding-Public-Land) http://www.discoverlosangeles.com/blog/hiking-los-angeles-las-best-trails http://www.discoverlosangeles.com/blog/hiking-los-angeles-la... http://www.secretstairs-la.com/welcome.html http://www.secretstairs-la.com/welcome.html
- comrade1 13y ago
  There are no private beaches in California.
fatjokes 13y ago
Tell me that the homeowners who put up the misleading signs get fined, preferably heavily, knowing how wealthy those homeowners likely are.
- beat 13y ago
  Probably not. It's INTENDED to be an exclusive neighborhood. The city government is probably rigged to maximum effectiveness at protecting the interests of the wealthy and exclusive. So doing things that impede the rabble is probably rewarded, not punished.
  - IvyMike 13y ago
    "Keep your ugly, fucking, gold-bricking ass out of my beach community, Lebowski!"
    - baseh 13y ago
      While we are on movie quotes, on similar lines from Supertroopers: College Boy 2: No, man, I'm just saying... I'm sayin', if-if you own beachfront property, right, do you own, like, the sand and the water? College Boy 3: Nobody owns the water. God owns - it's God's water.
    - RDeckard 13y ago
      Haha, golden, classic line! Came here to post it, came into my head seconds after reading the article :)
  - sharkweek 13y ago
    100% Correct -- the reality here is that the city council is likely to respond to the wealthy tax payers. The last thing the city wants is a mass exodus of the wealthy on the hunt for more private beach property.
    - sageikosa 13y ago
      > more private beach property Which would be where exactly?
gorrillamcd 13y ago
Awesome. I've never been to Malibu, but I can definitely see this as a useful app if I ever do decide to go. If the locals have trouble finding the public beaches, I can't imagine I'd be able to do it without some help.
mturmon 13y ago
This app was led in part by an LA journalist and lover of Malibu beaches, Jenny Price. She had been reporting on these public beaches in a series that ran on laobserved.com, a popular LA blog. Here's the first such piece, which I notice ran in 2006: http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hidden_beache.php http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hi... Here's a link to the announcement of the kickstarter campaign: http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_jenny_pr.php http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_j... which contains pointers to some of her other articles. It was a genius idea on someone's part to get her to build an app around this knowledge. She's a journalist, not a computer nerd.
- karmajunkie 13y ago
  Why do you assume that the idea wasn't hers?
  - mturmon 13y ago
    Since this is HN, I was trying to point out that it's a case where latent knowledge was transformed into highly useful software. I do pretty much assume the app wasn't totally her idea. This is because I've been aware of her work (e.g., http://west.stanford.edu/node/901 http://west.stanford.edu/node/901) for probably 10 years now, but hey, I could be wrong. The agency that developed the app is here: http://escapeapps.com/about http://escapeapps.com/about
gkop 13y ago
Here's the Kickstarter campaign - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-this-summer-the-malibu-beaches-0 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-this-...
- MasterScrat 13y ago
  Is it just me or is $30,000 a lot for an app? I know there's some research involved but that still sounds highly expansive.
patrickserrano 13y ago
This a great project. Living on the east end of Long Island, we tend to have similar (although seemingly less extreme) situations with public beaches and waterways. I'd love to see something like this here too, so when I'm getting yelled at I can point out that I am in fact on a public beach.
robomartin 13y ago
The first thought I had was: Why doesn't someone organize an "Occupy Malibu"? Hundreds or thousands of people peacefully (and cleanly) making use of the public beaches in these "exclusive" areas for the entire summer. Keep it clean, civilized, respectable, don't leave trash behind and be considerate. In other words, give absolutely no reason to label you negatively in any way.
- socalnate1 13y ago
  Probably because there are about a million other more important injustices to work on first.
  - redblacktree 13y ago
    Yes, but doesn't this just feel deliciously like "sticking it to the man?" These are public beaches that the most well-off among us would like to keep for themselves. Not only that, they use extremely underhanded tactics to do so.
    - jmduke 13y ago
      "sticking it to the man?" In the grand scheme of things, I'd argue that occupying a beach to stick it to the man isn't a great way to spend time.
      - methodin 13y ago
        If you are going to a beach it's much better to be sticking it to the man while you are there.
        redblacktree 13y ago
        Besides, who doesn't like the beach?
  - saalweachter 13y ago
    Eh, we can do two things at once. An "Occupy Malibu" protest needn't suck resources from cancer research. A few hundred (thousand) people are going to be visiting beaches in the general area of Malibu anyway. A concerted effort by beach-goers to find and use the most egregiously obstructed public beaches (for instance, using this app) could be both satisfying and low-cost.
sixQuarks 13y ago
why does this app cost $30,000? They should be able to get a high quality app like this developed for 1/10th the cost.
- gst 13y ago
  With 1/10th of the cost ($3000) you can pay a good programmer for something like a week at most. Do you think this app will be completely done within one week?
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    How long could it take to make an App that says "All the beaches are public, don't believe their lies."?
    - sixQuarks 13y ago
      lol - exactly
  - megablast 13y ago
    As someone who has written many GPS apps like this, once you have the data you could write it in a day. And since there is a free PDF with all the data in it, you just need to extract that data.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      Sounds like you should have started a kickstarter and provided an app for whatever you felt was reasonable. Or even done it for free. But you didn't.
      - megablast 13y ago
        You are right, but I can't do kickstarter because I am not an american. And I missed this issue. But I think these guys are having a huge laugh to the bank, getting such a huge sum.
nakovet 13y ago
Those same things happen in Brazil too, wealthy people put gates, make the entrance hard to find and even do lobby to have people enforcing paid parking to restrain access to public beaches, there is no such a thing as private beach, but somehow they manage to fake the "ownership".
tmarthal 13y ago
It seems to me that if they really wanted to disrupt the Malibu beach scene and provide more access for the public to the beaches, that they would just release the data as an annotated geojson file, rather than raise 30k(!) to create an app that will no longer be updated in a year. Props to them for doing a civil service, but it seems to me that it is also very-much motivated by money.
- mirkules 13y ago
  I don't see anything inherently wrong in building a business around a civil service. Your exclamation mark indicates that 30K is too much for an app like this, but I disagree because someone has to do the research to find each beach access point, identify false ones, organize the data into a database and build a app/web service around it. For an average Silicon Valley salary, $30K is a quarter of a year's worth of salary. My guess is that more than three months of work was put into this.
  - tmarthal 13y ago
    I also have no problem with people building businesses around a civil service. However, this is a kickstarter campaign which seems to be trying to raise money for work that has already been done. I put the exclamation point there because it is my outsider perspective that the data has already been researched and compiled by the California Coastal Commission. An iPhone application has even already been submitted to Apple and approved (that's my understanding, their kickstarter page has changed over the last few weeks). They are raising the money so that they can "release the iPhone app for free", instead of charging for it. That is the reason for my exclamation point -- to believe that the app would compile 30k worth of purchases may be disingenuous.
- mjn 13y ago
  I think it might actually have more impact this way: it's not only information that's lacking, but public awareness of the law on beach access, deliberately muddied by some false information and low-level intimidation from homeowners. By both collecting the information and making an app with some fundraising publicity, they can try to target both angles. That said, I would like to see this information make its way into OpenStreetMap, if it isn't already. In addition to just mapping out the paths, OSM has tags for access rights.
ljoshua 13y ago
I think the real story here is the use of Kickstarter to remove the risk from further developments on the Android app. If you want to go ahead and create something, but are worried about it panning out, this starts to open up new options. It's not the first time it's been done, but it's encouraging to see creators being able to deliver to those who want their products with less question marks in the process.
- HNJohnC 13y ago
  I think the real story is how easy it is to scam people out of 30k for doing what could be done in a weekend with Google maps and some info from the authorities.
johnbender 13y ago
Given that the project goal is to permit as many people as possible to find these beach entrances isn't it a bit odd to target a total of two platforms for the application? I'm surprised they aren't doing something this simple with the web. Put another way, isn't accessibility a prime concern for a beach accessibility application?
- sequoia 13y ago
  > Given that the project goal is to permit as many people as possible to find these beach entrances isn't it a bit odd to target a total of two platforms for the application? What alternative would you suggest? What would meet your criteria of "accessible" for this initiative?
  - sa1f 13y ago
    A web app perhaps?
    - sequoia 13y ago
      It's already free information online; if you're online you can already look at it. What would you like the webapp to do? Bear in mind in the interest of accessibility it must not rely on javascript, and there should be an offline as well as a print version to accomodate those with less internet access or no computer.
- nobodysfool 13y ago
  You can just go here to get the information for free: http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf They are just providing a better user experience and advertising, but it is public information and it is free.
  - mturmon 13y ago
    And moreover, the person who contributed to making the app was a significant force in getting the document you link to, to be written in the first place. She's been working for a decade on clarifying public accessibility to the Malibu beaches.
dot 13y ago
The iPhone app is now live: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-beaches/id565636167?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-beaches/id5656361...
thereallurch 13y ago
Seems like some of these homeowners would pay $30k to not have this program, or for some control over the final product. I could imagine some rich guy paying $15k to keep his section of beach off the program.
- rocky1138 13y ago
  Perhaps this is their idea of monetization for their app! :P
Arjuna 13y ago
Regarding Broad Beach... here is a PDF [1] with some good detail on beach access. There are 2 access points that are open to the public from Broad Beach Road. The PDF also has photos of all of the properties, and detail on what part of the beach is available to the public. [1] http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf
robotcookies 13y ago
Glad that Californians have this option. Beaches should be public on the East coast as well.
peter303 13y ago
This happens too with public land trails in the Rockies (near Boulder). The nearby landoweners remove signs, plant over trails, etc.
whyenot 13y ago
In the comments to the Sean Parker / Big Sur Wedding story that was posted recently, at least one person described the California Coastal Commission as a bunch of thugs. It's largely thanks to the CCC enforcing easement requirements on beach front homeowners, including some very powerful people, that there is any public access at all in places like Malibu.
earbitscom 13y ago
Can they make this app also tell you when valet parking companies are falsely putting cones and signs in front of parking meters, etc? This happens in every area of Santa Monica, Venice, LA, etc. They make it look like several parking spots are legally blocked from 6pm to 2am for their valet service, when in fact they are not. It's a way bigger problem than this beach thing, but seems like it would rely on similar technology.
- wilfra 13y ago
  Why are the cops letting them do that?
tlrobinson 13y ago
Ah yes. I remember in 2005 some friends and I hung out at Carbon Beach in front of David Geffen's house soon after he lost a court battle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles edit: photo http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg
michaelwww 13y ago
I read this as Malibu homeowners scammed by $30K Kickstarter campaign.
lurker14 13y ago
I love this use of Threshold pledge system... Using Kickstarter as a way to "ransom" software for a communal total price, and then making it free when the ransom is paid -- that's a great idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system
taude 13y ago
Why does this need to be an app? Seems like building out a website to distribute the information would be better.
- dagw 13y ago
  Websites already exists and have been linked to by other people. This app just makes it easier to find and use that info from a mobile phone.
brownbat 13y ago
99% Invisible had a story on secret staircases in California, left over from the WPA, and a time when public infrastructure projects for pedestrians was a thing. Thing about the WPA, it had a lot of really talented artists and sculptors contributed to public works, so you get some magnificently beautiful constructions, if you can find them. Apparently a lot of landowners try to fence off or discourage access to the public walkways though, and there's an underground movement to keep access open to these public city spaces. http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-secret-staircases http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-se...
joshuaheard 13y ago
Beaches in California are public only by historical accident. There are plenty of public beaches with facilities for visitors like lots of beach space, parking, restrooms, and restaurants. Santa Monica, for instance is about 15 minutes from Malibu and has all that. Why is the homeowner the bad guy for wanting a little privacy without hordes of people partying all night in his back yard, blocking his parking, leaving fast food trash everywhere, and pissing in his bushes?
- comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
  While I do sympathize with the homeowners when it comes to resenting poor behavior by visitors, that thing you are calling "his backyard" is not his. He never paid for it. English Common Law encodes many centuries of traditions about easement for travel. This topic is not a new thing. That an area might bear ever more visitors over the march of years is just a fact of life.
towski 13y ago
Why would you drive all the way up to Malibu when LA has an uninterrupted stretch of beach that is 50 miles long?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
kristopolous 13y ago
This has been thoroughly covered in the NYT, on BBC, and NPR weeks ago. Is this news to anyone still?
unclebucknasty 13y ago
I'm thinking if you pay me $30K to port a relatively simple IOS UI to Android, then that is the business. No need to sell anything (else).
buza 13y ago
"Malibu homeowners intentionally obscure public beach access areas with fake signs and hidden access. This is not only ridiculously selfish, it is illegal." Better or worse than just flat out preventing access whatsoever? http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-to-Billionaire-Vinod-Khosla-s-Beach.html http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-to...
jmspring 13y ago
Reminds me of the challenges Half Moon Bay is having with Vihnod Kholsa and beach access. At least, when they sue, the Malibu residents own up to it -- see Streisand vs Adelman. Vihnod is hiding behind things. sad. http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-takes-ubervc-vinod-khosla/ http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-tak...
bonchibuji 13y ago
'Right to roam' in Nordic countries comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
- arethuza 13y ago
  Not just Nordic countries, we have in Scotland as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland
victorology 13y ago
Wow, they could use this for Hawaii. We deal with a lot of the same stuff here.
wilfra 13y ago
I'm in Santa Monica (just down the road from Malibu) right now and decided to go checkout the public access path next to David Geffen's house[1] after reading this today. I was able to park across the street with no problem (plenty of spaces) and walk alongside his house onto the beach. I walked really far and passed many people who I assume were homeowners based on how they were dressed (no shoes/bags/purses or beach toys) and acting (walking close to the houses etc). All offered polite smiles and several let their dogs run up to me and seemed to expect me to pet/play with them. Not a single person gave me an odd or disapproving look - though one couple (really old white guy with a 20-something black girl) went pretty far out of their way to avoid the path I was walking on. I figured at least one of them was famous or something, as the reason. When I was leaving though, I went back past Geffen's house (only way out) and what I assume was his private security guard (plainclothes but looked like a Marine) came walking straight at me staring at me and then got in a car in the driveway. I look across the street to my car and I see a cop car parked in the turning late in the middle of the road with two cops in it. I decided to take an extra long time wiping the sand off of my feet to soak it all in. The security guy eventually pulled the car out of the driveway and alongside the cops, I assume they were talking through open windows but with traffic and distance couldn't hear. Then the guy pulls his car in front of the cops in the turning lane, does a U-Turn and parks right in front of my car on the opposite side of the street. There was no cross-walk and I didn't want to give the cops a reason to legally harass me, so I walked on the sidewalk right in front of David Geffen's house and gestured to the cops asking if I could cross the street illegally. They both just sorta shrugged and looked back at traffic and nodded - meaning if you want to risk getting hit by a car, go for it. So after a couple of minutes with these cops staring right at me, I find an opening and dart over to my car. The whole time the security dude is still sitting there parked in front of my car. I put my stuff inside and pull away, on the left two cops are staring at me driving off and on the right the security dude is also staring at me. I waved to all three of them and drove away. So I can confirm the beach is public and the homeowners seem like really nice people who don't mind that at all - other than David Geffen, who seems to try to use his private security and the police to intimidate people into not using the path. I'm taking a date back there tomorrow. [1]http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05beach.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05bea...
thehme 13y ago
When access is blocked illegally, it is just totally wrong and this app will certainly help those who just want to enjoy some beach time. It would be nice if the entire coast could have an app like this, on both East and West...oh and South.

596 points by kirillzubovsky 13y ago

Finally, someone started taking my advice! This is very interesting. I never considered that homeowners might put up fake signs to detour the public. "Special logo thanks! ---> We'll put your logo / icon (280 x 280 px) PLUS a link to your website on a special thank you page in the app! Plus, an advance copy of the app. Estimated delivery: Jun 2013 " https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5794094

tnorthcutt 13y ago
Although note that they're only putting the link in the app, not on a website, from what I can tell. So, not really buying a link in the traditional sense.

waterside81 13y ago

Just for a little context for those unfamiliar with Malibu. Some beaches are public, some are private and open only to those who live in particular neighbourhoods. The residents here are remarkably wealthy, we're talking Speilberg, Streisand, Geffen, and at times have hired their own private security to check people's ID to ensure they belong there. Broad Beach (I think) is public, but there's gates that block access to it requiring a key. So this app informs people which gates are legit and which ones are erected under false premise. Malibu problems.

joonix 13y ago
This is great. One day I was exploring Malibu and found one of these small narrow entranceways. They had a "guard" (guy in a yellow t-shirt) sitting on a foldable chair telling people it was a private beach. Pay these people no regard. Walk on to any beach you want. If the sand really belongs to the homeowner, they would have a fence surrounding it. Even if it happens to be private, the public should still have an easement to pass through. Remember, if they want to kick you out of their private beach, they need to call the police. They can't eject you with force.
- gknoy 13y ago
  I imagine they CAN eject you with force, but if they do you will be able to sue them and probably also call the police. Recent events should help us remain mindful of the fact that ability and legality do not always go hand in hand -- be mindful of what can happen, not just what is legal, and you'll be safer. The same goes for being a pedestrian near cars. Physics trumps right of way.
  - jdmichal 13y ago
    I always phrase this as, 3000 pounds of steel always has right of way over 200 pounds of flesh.
    - jlarocco 13y ago
      I always keep this in mind when riding my bike. Just because I may legally have the right of way, it's not worth getting hit by a car to prove the point.
      - anakha 13y ago
        Bein' right is not a bulletproof vest, Freddy. - Cop Land
- adrr 13y ago
  Some of the private communities have fences that extend into the water line. I just walk past them. Fished surf in Malibu for 10 years, never had issues with people telling me i couldn't be there. Don't know why people want to hangout on Malibu beaches, the water smell like sewage since they lack a sewer system so everything is on septic tanks that overflow every time it rains. Also all the home owners let their dogs run free and they defecate everywhere without picking it up.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- 13y ago
kirillzubovsky 13y ago
Did you say that even public beaches require a key, which I assume only residents of the 'allowed' neighborhoods are able to attain?
- waterside81 13y ago
  Yup, Broad Beach at one location has a gate requiring a key.
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  Of course keys aren't the only things that open locks. Back in the early 80's the "locks" on these gates were pretty basic 3 pin convenience locks and you could pick them very easily.
waitwhatwhoa 13y ago
"some beaches are private" is actually incorrect - all beaches in California are public from the water to the high tide line.
- awm 13y ago
  I believe the only exception to this rule is Military property. Coronado (off of San Diego) beach is an example. Eventually you hit the navy base...
  - dfc 13y ago
    You were concerned a lot of people were going to read this and then try to have a picnic on the beach and watch the newest BUDS class? I don't know about Coronado but at Dam Neck there is a fence that extends at least 150+ feet into the water clearly delineating the base. If the fence is not a dead give away there are signs every 20 feet on the fence that make it crystal clear that the other side of the fence is not a public beach.
    - mbreese 13y ago
      Right, but it's good to point out the exceptions to the general rule that all beaches are accessible to the public. Especially in the context of Malibu where there are often wrong or misleading signs.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- waterside81 13y ago
  Yeah you're probably right - I've probably been conditioned to think some are private because the access is restricted.
  - beachstartup 13y ago
    he's not probably right, he's right. california beaches are public and protected. anyone can use them as long as they follow state law (regarding alcohol, fires, dogs, trash, etc.) the state takes it very seriously and that's why there's thousands of miles of clean shoreline for everyone to enjoy.
dmckeon 13y ago
For large values of "remarkably wealthy" - http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/mapping_15_of_tech_billionaire_larry_ellisons_malibu_properties_1.php http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/05/mapping_15_of_tech_bil...
- fakeer 13y ago
  House 1:: Ellison bought his first house on Carbon Beach back in 2002 for $11.750117[1], according to PropertyShark. House 2: He bought Carbon house number two in 2003 for $11.500115[2] [1] & [2] Typo, right?
- joonix 13y ago
  These properties seem undervalued. We're talking about absolute beachfront property a half hour from the #2 population center of the largest economy in the world in a beautiful area (that's on the US coast that faces Asia) with one of the best and rarest climates in the world. $10 million is chump change to a billionaire; consider the number of billionaires in the world and that the number rises yearly as more and more economies around the world develop and emerge. There are only 70 homes on Carbon Beach. Considering new Manhattan penthouses are selling for $90 million cash, it seems Ellison has spotted a bargain and dived straight in.
  - mturmon 13y ago
    I hate the implications, but you're right. I reached this enlightenment a few years ago after visiting the coastline around Nice and Cannes. It was clear where Malibu was going, eventually. I'm not saying it will be the same, but close enough.
  - dylangs1030 13y ago
    Small nitpick - Manhattan "penthouse" is a very vague term. You can buy penthouses with 10-30k square feet for $10 million or less in Manhattan. This is dependent on location and marketability, but they are still very high class locales. Unless you mean a penthouse literally less than a year old. Just wanted to share this info as a New Yorker.
algorias 13y ago
Hiring private security for that purpose is basically vigilantism, this should be illegal in any sane jurisdiction. Has anybody prosecuted this? Being a "Malibu problem" doesn't really make this matter any less relevant. It's precisely this kind of being above the law feeling of the wealthy that's at the root of many much larger problems.
- 3pt14159 13y ago
  It depends on authority and proof. It is not vigiantism if the area is private and the guard is given authority by the neighbourhood association (or whoever owns/is in charge of the land). While the wealthy being above the law is a problem, the larger problem is the arbitrary nature of the law and the arbitrary nature of its enforcement. People wouldn't have to hire private guards if the law wasn't enforced. The police would enforce the law if there was less of it wasted on things that moral people do (like smoking pot).
  - algorias 13y ago
    I agree with your sentiment regarding arbitrary law enforcement and the huge waste of times it is to chase people smoking pot and similarly harmless things. However, you seem to imply (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this justifies the vigilantism. I find that idea to be very problematic on many fronts.
    - 3pt14159 13y ago
      Is it vigilantism for you to stop me from walking into your house? That is the crux of my argument. If you, or a group of people, rightfully own land then you should be free to pay guards to stop people to enter it.
      - brewdad 13y ago
        But they don't rightfully own the land. This is hiring guards to keep people off the sidewalk in front of your house.
  - 13y ago
Steko 13y ago
There are also a lot of public walking paths[1] and unexpected stairways[2] in the Hollywood Hills that homeowners will put gates over or post signs claiming no public access, because, you know, fuck you got mine. - Bunny Ultramod on Metafilter (http://www.metafilter.com/129367/Hiding-Public-Land http://www.metafilter.com/129367/Hiding-Public-Land) http://www.discoverlosangeles.com/blog/hiking-los-angeles-las-best-trails http://www.discoverlosangeles.com/blog/hiking-los-angeles-la... http://www.secretstairs-la.com/welcome.html http://www.secretstairs-la.com/welcome.html
comrade1 13y ago
There are no private beaches in California.

fatjokes 13y ago

Tell me that the homeowners who put up the misleading signs get fined, preferably heavily, knowing how wealthy those homeowners likely are.

beat 13y ago
Probably not. It's INTENDED to be an exclusive neighborhood. The city government is probably rigged to maximum effectiveness at protecting the interests of the wealthy and exclusive. So doing things that impede the rabble is probably rewarded, not punished.
- IvyMike 13y ago
  "Keep your ugly, fucking, gold-bricking ass out of my beach community, Lebowski!"
  - baseh 13y ago
    While we are on movie quotes, on similar lines from Supertroopers: College Boy 2: No, man, I'm just saying... I'm sayin', if-if you own beachfront property, right, do you own, like, the sand and the water? College Boy 3: Nobody owns the water. God owns - it's God's water.
  - RDeckard 13y ago
    Haha, golden, classic line! Came here to post it, came into my head seconds after reading the article :)
- sharkweek 13y ago
  100% Correct -- the reality here is that the city council is likely to respond to the wealthy tax payers. The last thing the city wants is a mass exodus of the wealthy on the hunt for more private beach property.
  - sageikosa 13y ago
    > more private beach property Which would be where exactly?

gorrillamcd 13y ago

Awesome. I've never been to Malibu, but I can definitely see this as a useful app if I ever do decide to go. If the locals have trouble finding the public beaches, I can't imagine I'd be able to do it without some help.

mturmon 13y ago

This app was led in part by an LA journalist and lover of Malibu beaches, Jenny Price. She had been reporting on these public beaches in a series that ran on laobserved.com, a popular LA blog. Here's the first such piece, which I notice ran in 2006: http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hidden_beache.php http://www.laobserved.com/intell/2006/08/guide_to_malibus_hi... Here's a link to the announcement of the kickstarter campaign: http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_jenny_pr.php http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2013/05/time_ticking_for_j... which contains pointers to some of her other articles. It was a genius idea on someone's part to get her to build an app around this knowledge. She's a journalist, not a computer nerd.

karmajunkie 13y ago
Why do you assume that the idea wasn't hers?
- mturmon 13y ago
  Since this is HN, I was trying to point out that it's a case where latent knowledge was transformed into highly useful software. I do pretty much assume the app wasn't totally her idea. This is because I've been aware of her work (e.g., http://west.stanford.edu/node/901 http://west.stanford.edu/node/901) for probably 10 years now, but hey, I could be wrong. The agency that developed the app is here: http://escapeapps.com/about http://escapeapps.com/about

gkop 13y ago

Here's the Kickstarter campaign - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-this-summer-the-malibu-beaches-0 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/escapeapps/opening-this-...

MasterScrat 13y ago
Is it just me or is $30,000 a lot for an app? I know there's some research involved but that still sounds highly expansive.

patrickserrano 13y ago

This a great project. Living on the east end of Long Island, we tend to have similar (although seemingly less extreme) situations with public beaches and waterways. I'd love to see something like this here too, so when I'm getting yelled at I can point out that I am in fact on a public beach.

robomartin 13y ago

The first thought I had was: Why doesn't someone organize an "Occupy Malibu"? Hundreds or thousands of people peacefully (and cleanly) making use of the public beaches in these "exclusive" areas for the entire summer. Keep it clean, civilized, respectable, don't leave trash behind and be considerate. In other words, give absolutely no reason to label you negatively in any way.

socalnate1 13y ago
Probably because there are about a million other more important injustices to work on first.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  Yes, but doesn't this just feel deliciously like "sticking it to the man?" These are public beaches that the most well-off among us would like to keep for themselves. Not only that, they use extremely underhanded tactics to do so.
  - jmduke 13y ago
    "sticking it to the man?" In the grand scheme of things, I'd argue that occupying a beach to stick it to the man isn't a great way to spend time.
    - methodin 13y ago
      If you are going to a beach it's much better to be sticking it to the man while you are there.
      - redblacktree 13y ago
        Besides, who doesn't like the beach?
- saalweachter 13y ago
  Eh, we can do two things at once. An "Occupy Malibu" protest needn't suck resources from cancer research. A few hundred (thousand) people are going to be visiting beaches in the general area of Malibu anyway. A concerted effort by beach-goers to find and use the most egregiously obstructed public beaches (for instance, using this app) could be both satisfying and low-cost.

sixQuarks 13y ago

why does this app cost $30,000? They should be able to get a high quality app like this developed for 1/10th the cost.

gst 13y ago
With 1/10th of the cost ($3000) you can pay a good programmer for something like a week at most. Do you think this app will be completely done within one week?
- jlgreco 13y ago
  How long could it take to make an App that says "All the beaches are public, don't believe their lies."?
  - sixQuarks 13y ago
    lol - exactly
- megablast 13y ago
  As someone who has written many GPS apps like this, once you have the data you could write it in a day. And since there is a free PDF with all the data in it, you just need to extract that data.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    Sounds like you should have started a kickstarter and provided an app for whatever you felt was reasonable. Or even done it for free. But you didn't.
    - megablast 13y ago
      You are right, but I can't do kickstarter because I am not an american. And I missed this issue. But I think these guys are having a huge laugh to the bank, getting such a huge sum.

nakovet 13y ago

Those same things happen in Brazil too, wealthy people put gates, make the entrance hard to find and even do lobby to have people enforcing paid parking to restrain access to public beaches, there is no such a thing as private beach, but somehow they manage to fake the "ownership".

tmarthal 13y ago

It seems to me that if they really wanted to disrupt the Malibu beach scene and provide more access for the public to the beaches, that they would just release the data as an annotated geojson file, rather than raise 30k(!) to create an app that will no longer be updated in a year. Props to them for doing a civil service, but it seems to me that it is also very-much motivated by money.

mirkules 13y ago
I don't see anything inherently wrong in building a business around a civil service. Your exclamation mark indicates that 30K is too much for an app like this, but I disagree because someone has to do the research to find each beach access point, identify false ones, organize the data into a database and build a app/web service around it. For an average Silicon Valley salary, $30K is a quarter of a year's worth of salary. My guess is that more than three months of work was put into this.
- tmarthal 13y ago
  I also have no problem with people building businesses around a civil service. However, this is a kickstarter campaign which seems to be trying to raise money for work that has already been done. I put the exclamation point there because it is my outsider perspective that the data has already been researched and compiled by the California Coastal Commission. An iPhone application has even already been submitted to Apple and approved (that's my understanding, their kickstarter page has changed over the last few weeks). They are raising the money so that they can "release the iPhone app for free", instead of charging for it. That is the reason for my exclamation point -- to believe that the app would compile 30k worth of purchases may be disingenuous.
mjn 13y ago
I think it might actually have more impact this way: it's not only information that's lacking, but public awareness of the law on beach access, deliberately muddied by some false information and low-level intimidation from homeowners. By both collecting the information and making an app with some fundraising publicity, they can try to target both angles. That said, I would like to see this information make its way into OpenStreetMap, if it isn't already. In addition to just mapping out the paths, OSM has tags for access rights.

ljoshua 13y ago

I think the real story here is the use of Kickstarter to remove the risk from further developments on the Android app. If you want to go ahead and create something, but are worried about it panning out, this starts to open up new options. It's not the first time it's been done, but it's encouraging to see creators being able to deliver to those who want their products with less question marks in the process.

HNJohnC 13y ago
I think the real story is how easy it is to scam people out of 30k for doing what could be done in a weekend with Google maps and some info from the authorities.

johnbender 13y ago

Given that the project goal is to permit as many people as possible to find these beach entrances isn't it a bit odd to target a total of two platforms for the application? I'm surprised they aren't doing something this simple with the web. Put another way, isn't accessibility a prime concern for a beach accessibility application?

sequoia 13y ago
> Given that the project goal is to permit as many people as possible to find these beach entrances isn't it a bit odd to target a total of two platforms for the application? What alternative would you suggest? What would meet your criteria of "accessible" for this initiative?
- sa1f 13y ago
  A web app perhaps?
  - sequoia 13y ago
    It's already free information online; if you're online you can already look at it. What would you like the webapp to do? Bear in mind in the interest of accessibility it must not rely on javascript, and there should be an offline as well as a print version to accomodate those with less internet access or no computer.
nobodysfool 13y ago
You can just go here to get the information for free: http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf They are just providing a better user experience and advertising, but it is public information and it is free.
- mturmon 13y ago
  And moreover, the person who contributed to making the app was a significant force in getting the document you link to, to be written in the first place. She's been working for a decade on clarifying public accessibility to the Malibu beaches.

dot 13y ago

The iPhone app is now live: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-beaches/id565636167?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/our-malibu-beaches/id5656361...

thereallurch 13y ago

Seems like some of these homeowners would pay $30k to not have this program, or for some control over the final product. I could imagine some rich guy paying $15k to keep his section of beach off the program.

rocky1138 13y ago
Perhaps this is their idea of monetization for their app! :P

Arjuna 13y ago

Regarding Broad Beach... here is a PDF [1] with some good detail on beach access. There are 2 access points that are open to the public from Broad Beach Road. The PDF also has photos of all of the properties, and detail on what part of the beach is available to the public. [1] http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf http://www.coastal.ca.gov/access/BroadBeachCoastalAccess.pdf

robotcookies 13y ago

Glad that Californians have this option. Beaches should be public on the East coast as well.

peter303 13y ago

This happens too with public land trails in the Rockies (near Boulder). The nearby landoweners remove signs, plant over trails, etc.

whyenot 13y ago

In the comments to the Sean Parker / Big Sur Wedding story that was posted recently, at least one person described the California Coastal Commission as a bunch of thugs. It's largely thanks to the CCC enforcing easement requirements on beach front homeowners, including some very powerful people, that there is any public access at all in places like Malibu.

earbitscom 13y ago

Can they make this app also tell you when valet parking companies are falsely putting cones and signs in front of parking meters, etc? This happens in every area of Santa Monica, Venice, LA, etc. They make it look like several parking spots are legally blocked from 6pm to 2am for their valet service, when in fact they are not. It's a way bigger problem than this beach thing, but seems like it would rely on similar technology.

wilfra 13y ago
Why are the cops letting them do that?

tlrobinson 13y ago

Ah yes. I remember in 2005 some friends and I hung out at Carbon Beach in front of David Geffen's house soon after he lost a court battle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Geffen#Court_battles edit: photo http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg http://i.imgur.com/zCQEfZY.jpg

michaelwww 13y ago

I read this as Malibu homeowners scammed by $30K Kickstarter campaign.

lurker14 13y ago

I love this use of Threshold pledge system... Using Kickstarter as a way to "ransom" software for a communal total price, and then making it free when the ransom is paid -- that's a great idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_pledge_system

taude 13y ago

Why does this need to be an app? Seems like building out a website to distribute the information would be better.

dagw 13y ago
Websites already exists and have been linked to by other people. This app just makes it easier to find and use that info from a mobile phone.

brownbat 13y ago

99% Invisible had a story on secret staircases in California, left over from the WPA, and a time when public infrastructure projects for pedestrians was a thing. Thing about the WPA, it had a lot of really talented artists and sculptors contributed to public works, so you get some magnificently beautiful constructions, if you can find them. Apparently a lot of landowners try to fence off or discourage access to the public walkways though, and there's an underground movement to keep access open to these public city spaces. http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-secret-staircases http://99percentinvisible.org/post/45876810693/episode-75-se...

joshuaheard 13y ago

Beaches in California are public only by historical accident. There are plenty of public beaches with facilities for visitors like lots of beach space, parking, restrooms, and restaurants. Santa Monica, for instance is about 15 minutes from Malibu and has all that. Why is the homeowner the bad guy for wanting a little privacy without hordes of people partying all night in his back yard, blocking his parking, leaving fast food trash everywhere, and pissing in his bushes?

comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
While I do sympathize with the homeowners when it comes to resenting poor behavior by visitors, that thing you are calling "his backyard" is not his. He never paid for it. English Common Law encodes many centuries of traditions about easement for travel. This topic is not a new thing. That an area might bear ever more visitors over the march of years is just a fact of life.

towski 13y ago

Why would you drive all the way up to Malibu when LA has an uninterrupted stretch of beach that is 50 miles long?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

kristopolous 13y ago

This has been thoroughly covered in the NYT, on BBC, and NPR weeks ago. Is this news to anyone still?

unclebucknasty 13y ago

I'm thinking if you pay me $30K to port a relatively simple IOS UI to Android, then that is the business. No need to sell anything (else).

buza 13y ago

"Malibu homeowners intentionally obscure public beach access areas with fake signs and hidden access. This is not only ridiculously selfish, it is illegal." Better or worse than just flat out preventing access whatsoever? http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-to-Billionaire-Vinod-Khosla-s-Beach.html http://www.indiawest.com/news/9799-Surfers-Sue-for-Access-to...

jmspring 13y ago

Reminds me of the challenges Half Moon Bay is having with Vihnod Kholsa and beach access. At least, when they sue, the Malibu residents own up to it -- see Streisand vs Adelman. Vihnod is hiding behind things. sad. http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-takes-ubervc-vinod-khosla/ http://www.pehub.com/2013/03/15/the-surfrider-foundation-tak...

bonchibuji 13y ago

'Right to roam' in Nordic countries comes to mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

arethuza 13y ago
Not just Nordic countries, we have in Scotland as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam#Scotland

victorology 13y ago

Wow, they could use this for Hawaii. We deal with a lot of the same stuff here.

wilfra 13y ago

I'm in Santa Monica (just down the road from Malibu) right now and decided to go checkout the public access path next to David Geffen's house[1] after reading this today. I was able to park across the street with no problem (plenty of spaces) and walk alongside his house onto the beach. I walked really far and passed many people who I assume were homeowners based on how they were dressed (no shoes/bags/purses or beach toys) and acting (walking close to the houses etc). All offered polite smiles and several let their dogs run up to me and seemed to expect me to pet/play with them. Not a single person gave me an odd or disapproving look - though one couple (really old white guy with a 20-something black girl) went pretty far out of their way to avoid the path I was walking on. I figured at least one of them was famous or something, as the reason. When I was leaving though, I went back past Geffen's house (only way out) and what I assume was his private security guard (plainclothes but looked like a Marine) came walking straight at me staring at me and then got in a car in the driveway. I look across the street to my car and I see a cop car parked in the turning late in the middle of the road with two cops in it. I decided to take an extra long time wiping the sand off of my feet to soak it all in. The security guy eventually pulled the car out of the driveway and alongside the cops, I assume they were talking through open windows but with traffic and distance couldn't hear. Then the guy pulls his car in front of the cops in the turning lane, does a U-Turn and parks right in front of my car on the opposite side of the street. There was no cross-walk and I didn't want to give the cops a reason to legally harass me, so I walked on the sidewalk right in front of David Geffen's house and gestured to the cops asking if I could cross the street illegally. They both just sorta shrugged and looked back at traffic and nodded - meaning if you want to risk getting hit by a car, go for it. So after a couple of minutes with these cops staring right at me, I find an opening and dart over to my car. The whole time the security dude is still sitting there parked in front of my car. I put my stuff inside and pull away, on the left two cops are staring at me driving off and on the right the security dude is also staring at me. I waved to all three of them and drove away. So I can confirm the beach is public and the homeowners seem like really nice people who don't mind that at all - other than David Geffen, who seems to try to use his private security and the police to intimidate people into not using the path. I'm taking a date back there tomorrow. [1]http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05beach.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/05/fashion/sundaystyles/05bea...

thehme 13y ago

When access is blocked illegally, it is just totally wrong and this app will certainly help those who just want to enjoy some beach time. It would be nice if the entire coast could have an app like this, on both East and West...oh and South.