6 ms·

My thought exactly. Fuck work, we can have a lifestyle driven by curiosity and cooperation, full of open research and celebration; Imagine constantly living lik

by phryk 13y ago

My thought exactly. Fuck work, we can have a lifestyle driven by curiosity and cooperation, full of open research and celebration; Imagine constantly living like you do at hacker cons and camps. When talking about this I often encounter people going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE FAT LAZY SLOBS WHO WON'T DO ANYTHING?!1!?" to which I can only reply: What about them? So a few people will sit around and do nothing. What's so bad about that if their labor isn't needed? It's not like a few lazy people will bring about the end of our civilization…

m0nty 13y ago
> THOSE FAT LAZY SLOBS WHO WON'T DO ANYTHING To the people who hold that view (not you, clearly) I would say, I have never met anyone who doesn't do anything; the hopelessly unemployable people I've met have usually been a really poor match to the workplace. They don't like the 9-5, they don't like being told what to do, they don't like hierarchy. They tend to invest heavily in their hobbies and non-work interests. This is probably something which hackers and entrepreneurs can relate to, btw. Of course, it makes no sense to people who feel comfortable and warm inside a hierarchy, like to know their place, and like being told what to do (and, hopefully, acquiring a coterie which they in turn can tell what to do). Personally I share your vision of a more interesting and stimulating future free from the shackles of mandatory work and based around willing collaboration. I'm not sure it will happen though, if a small group of people with wealth can opt out of society altogether, except for using it as a source of greater wealth, on which they refuse to pay any tax. I'm not opposed to capitalism, btw, I just feel it should serve everyone, not just the few.
- phryk 13y ago
  I'm not opposed to capitalism, btw, I just feel it should serve everyone, not just the few. Then that wouldn't be capitalism. Sounds like you want some sort of democratic economy. I personally am against capitalism, I think we don't even need money in the long run. I'm pretty sure we could obsolete it within the next few decades. Just distribute goods according to need…
  - sageikosa 13y ago
    I need a Porsche.
  - m0nty 13y ago
    Yes, I probably want a more democratic economy. A more democratic everything, in fact.
michaelochurch 13y ago
When talking about this I often encounter people going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE FAT LAZY SLOBS WHO WON'T DO ANYTHING?!1!?" to which I can only reply: What about them? So a few people will sit around and do nothing. What's so bad about that if their labor isn't needed? It's not like a few lazy people will bring about the end of our civilization… It's always important to remind those people that it's better to have some parasites at the bottom of society (under basic income) than to have parasites at the top of it (under the current corporate elite). I support BI because it will change the workplace dynamic outright. It will be focused more on getting things done and improving the world and less on servility.
- mattm 13y ago
  It's also better to have them being given some income instead of having to steal for it which generally costs way more than if the money was just given to them directly in the first place.
- chii 13y ago
  The parasites at the top will not want the parasites at the bottom, because without the parasites at the bottom, they get a bigger slice of the pie! Basic income, whether its a good idea (for society in general or not), will not come to be. Those who have something to lose with BI will certainly oppose it, and they are the people who have real voting power (or should i say lobby/political power). Unless, the west turns on its head and adopt communism...but i highly doubt that.
  - phryk 13y ago
    If ~all the goods are produced automatically we are all parasites living off of the labor of the machines, if you really want to use that word. The way I think about it it's simply taking away the necessity to labor for your survival. I guess most people will spend a very large chunk of their newly won time socializing and I don't see anything wrong with that. If everyone can celebrate each and every day of their lives, I'm strongly in favor of it. :)
    - 13y ago
jcfrei 13y ago
you do realize that the constant evolution of smart computers would eventually remove the need of you as a researcher and leave absolutely everyone unemployed? would you know what to do when all of your work would essentially be shallow and useless? can you entertain yourself 24h?
- rjtavares 13y ago
  I certainly can. Just thinking of the movies and TV shows I missed, the books I never read, essays I never wrote, recipes I never tried, places I didn't visit... (of course, I would procrastinate all of these things even if I had the time to do them...)
  - return0 13y ago
    I don't know, i believep eople generally don't live on hedonism alone
    - phryk 13y ago
      Well, it doesn't really matter if even if we can't supply a way to keep everyone busy right now. We'll have enough time on our hands to figure that out when the time comes around. ;)
- phryk 13y ago
  Actually I'm totally amazed when thinking about the possibilities we might get with supportive AIs and implants to boost our neural power. And even if we're not needed for research it doesn't take the joy out of doing it anyways; Learning is pretty much self-rewarding. Plus there will always be enough projects to keep yourself busy, even if it's "just" organizing the next rave, party or other social event. But before that happens we will have plenty of new frontiers to conquer.
- James_Duval 13y ago
  I imagine that small enclaves and communes with DIY aesthetics would start to spring up everywhere. Look at the Raspberry Pi - only today a tutorial on creating a basic Pi command-line OS was front page of Hacker News. And yet we all have access to highly sophisticated operating systems with slick GUIs. Discovery and exploration is its own reward. It doesn't matter if someone or something else has already discovered it.
lmm 13y ago
We've adapted to a life of work, both positively and negatively. Culturally and socially our jobs validate and define us. Think about people who are already in the situation of not having to work, e.g. those with large trust funds from their parents - my impression is that while they have more free time than those who have to work they often find their lives less fulfilling. I'm not saying we shouldn't remove work, but culture will need time to adapt. Maybe we should try to reduce working hours and days - move to a 4-day week, then a 3-day - rather than abolishing work all in one go.

by phryk 13y ago

m0nty 13y ago

> THOSE FAT LAZY SLOBS WHO WON'T DO ANYTHING To the people who hold that view (not you, clearly) I would say, I have never met anyone who doesn't do anything; the hopelessly unemployable people I've met have usually been a really poor match to the workplace. They don't like the 9-5, they don't like being told what to do, they don't like hierarchy. They tend to invest heavily in their hobbies and non-work interests. This is probably something which hackers and entrepreneurs can relate to, btw. Of course, it makes no sense to people who feel comfortable and warm inside a hierarchy, like to know their place, and like being told what to do (and, hopefully, acquiring a coterie which they in turn can tell what to do). Personally I share your vision of a more interesting and stimulating future free from the shackles of mandatory work and based around willing collaboration. I'm not sure it will happen though, if a small group of people with wealth can opt out of society altogether, except for using it as a source of greater wealth, on which they refuse to pay any tax. I'm not opposed to capitalism, btw, I just feel it should serve everyone, not just the few.

phryk 13y ago
I'm not opposed to capitalism, btw, I just feel it should serve everyone, not just the few. Then that wouldn't be capitalism. Sounds like you want some sort of democratic economy. I personally am against capitalism, I think we don't even need money in the long run. I'm pretty sure we could obsolete it within the next few decades. Just distribute goods according to need…
- sageikosa 13y ago
  I need a Porsche.
- m0nty 13y ago
  Yes, I probably want a more democratic economy. A more democratic everything, in fact.

michaelochurch 13y ago

When talking about this I often encounter people going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE FAT LAZY SLOBS WHO WON'T DO ANYTHING?!1!?" to which I can only reply: What about them? So a few people will sit around and do nothing. What's so bad about that if their labor isn't needed? It's not like a few lazy people will bring about the end of our civilization… It's always important to remind those people that it's better to have some parasites at the bottom of society (under basic income) than to have parasites at the top of it (under the current corporate elite). I support BI because it will change the workplace dynamic outright. It will be focused more on getting things done and improving the world and less on servility.

mattm 13y ago
It's also better to have them being given some income instead of having to steal for it which generally costs way more than if the money was just given to them directly in the first place.
chii 13y ago
The parasites at the top will not want the parasites at the bottom, because without the parasites at the bottom, they get a bigger slice of the pie! Basic income, whether its a good idea (for society in general or not), will not come to be. Those who have something to lose with BI will certainly oppose it, and they are the people who have real voting power (or should i say lobby/political power). Unless, the west turns on its head and adopt communism...but i highly doubt that.
- phryk 13y ago
  If ~all the goods are produced automatically we are all parasites living off of the labor of the machines, if you really want to use that word. The way I think about it it's simply taking away the necessity to labor for your survival. I guess most people will spend a very large chunk of their newly won time socializing and I don't see anything wrong with that. If everyone can celebrate each and every day of their lives, I'm strongly in favor of it. :)
  - 13y ago

jcfrei 13y ago

you do realize that the constant evolution of smart computers would eventually remove the need of you as a researcher and leave absolutely everyone unemployed? would you know what to do when all of your work would essentially be shallow and useless? can you entertain yourself 24h?

rjtavares 13y ago
I certainly can. Just thinking of the movies and TV shows I missed, the books I never read, essays I never wrote, recipes I never tried, places I didn't visit... (of course, I would procrastinate all of these things even if I had the time to do them...)
- return0 13y ago
  I don't know, i believep eople generally don't live on hedonism alone
  - phryk 13y ago
    Well, it doesn't really matter if even if we can't supply a way to keep everyone busy right now. We'll have enough time on our hands to figure that out when the time comes around. ;)
phryk 13y ago
Actually I'm totally amazed when thinking about the possibilities we might get with supportive AIs and implants to boost our neural power. And even if we're not needed for research it doesn't take the joy out of doing it anyways; Learning is pretty much self-rewarding. Plus there will always be enough projects to keep yourself busy, even if it's "just" organizing the next rave, party or other social event. But before that happens we will have plenty of new frontiers to conquer.
James_Duval 13y ago
I imagine that small enclaves and communes with DIY aesthetics would start to spring up everywhere. Look at the Raspberry Pi - only today a tutorial on creating a basic Pi command-line OS was front page of Hacker News. And yet we all have access to highly sophisticated operating systems with slick GUIs. Discovery and exploration is its own reward. It doesn't matter if someone or something else has already discovered it.

lmm 13y ago

We've adapted to a life of work, both positively and negatively. Culturally and socially our jobs validate and define us. Think about people who are already in the situation of not having to work, e.g. those with large trust funds from their parents - my impression is that while they have more free time than those who have to work they often find their lives less fulfilling. I'm not saying we shouldn't remove work, but culture will need time to adapt. Maybe we should try to reduce working hours and days - move to a 4-day week, then a 3-day - rather than abolishing work all in one go.