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Snowden's destination is Venezuela through Havana
- pitiburi 13y agoIt seems to me he had to board a plane quite in a hurry, and only after that they looked for a proper destination. This story is just beginning.
- declan 13y agoOn the other hand, Edward Snowden didn't have much to do in the last month except spend a few hours talk to reporters -- and plan just this. If Venezuela is his final destination, going by way of Moscow and Cuba is clever. It avoids going through any countries that would honor an INTERPOL Red Notice or a "diffusion" notice for his detention.
- pitiburi 13y agoIn fact the source reported that “He chose such a complicated route in the hope that he would not be arrested on the way to his final destination of Venezuela,”
- angerman 13y agoWhy would one go to Venezuela in his situation? What am I missing here? Or is that just a transit location towards Ecuador?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- jzwinck 13y agoVenezuela's recent former president, Hugo Chávez, was broadly and openly against the United States. His successor is relatively untested, having been in office only two months. If Snowden stays in Venezuela, it could be an interesting gauge of sentiment there. In any case, there's not much of a working relationship between Venezuela and the US, which is desirable for Snowden.
- angerman 13y agoThanks. That kind of explains things a little, I did remember Hugo Chavez being quite vocal against the US. But was under the impression that the new government was less vocal in that regard. I guess I'm wrong. And probably Mr. Snowden would be the one to know.
- _delirium 13y agoThe new government does seem to be less vocal so far. But the person who (narrowly) won the last election was Chavez's preferred successor, so there hasn't been a major change in policies. I think it's still an open question how their policies will developer longer-term.
- jzwinck 13y agoIn March, Maduro accused the US of trying to kill his opponent in the bid for President, right after accusing the US of giving Chávez cancer that led to the seat being empty in the first place. Some US politicians asked for a recount after the Venezuelan election, as has become customary. There was no recount. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/17/us-venezuela-election-idUSBRE92G0AR20130317 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/17/us-venezuela-elect... http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-c...
- pitiburi 13y agoPlease correct yourself. There was a recount, and it ended up showing there was no irregularities. And No, it is not a partisan opinion. Unless you think Jimmy Carter and hundreds of other organizations controlling the vote AND the recount are part of a communist plot.
- thepumpkin1979 13y agoWhat recount? I'm Venezuelan, there was no recount.
- tome 13y agoSeems like he's actually anti-US, rather than just pro-US-citizen.
- pyvpx 13y agoyeah, these days any one promoting the Constitution and the values contained therein are anti-US /s
- a3n 13y agoI was stationed at Pearl Harbor fairly far back in the previous century. There was a group of protesters just outside one of the gates, doing nothing but handing out copies of the Constitution to people leaving the base. They were arrested for trespassing, as they were standing on usgov property. But they were really arrested because they were making trouble. No, I don't remember their affiliation or what they were trying to accomplish. Maybe they actually were just troublemakers, which has never been against the law but which will always attract a smackdown.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- yeezus 13y agoBecause they have no extradition treaty with the US. That's why George Clooney fled there.
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- jzwinck 13y agoThis is slightly strange: the best onward flight to Havana is Aeroflot 150, which departed Moscow SVO 30 minutes ago. This makes Snowden's layover in Moscow likely to be over 20 hours, so one must wonder if he plans to stay there a while. http://flightaware.com/live/findflight/UUEE/MUHA/ http://flightaware.com/live/findflight/UUEE/MUHA/ If he will indeed fly HK-Moscow-Havana-Caracas without delay, he may finish with flight V04101 on Monday at 23:50 Venezuela time (21:20 California time).
- pitiburi 13y agoThat wouldn't be a problem, it is reported that "Nobody will detain Snowden at Sheremetyevo, if his visa is alright - police", so he is not in danger while waiting.
- uvdiv 13y agoRussia Today reports: "Citing a source close to Snowden, Russian news agency Interfax reported that the whistleblower’s final destination will be Venezuela with a transfer in Havana, Cuba. He will reportedly be on flight SU150 to Havana, leaving Moscow on Monday and then on flight V-04101 to Caracas." http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-aeroflot-125/ http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-aeroflot-125/
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agohttp://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130623/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130623/1... Is this it? He's about to enter US airspace, if so.
- jusben1369 13y agoI just loved that article a few days back about how brilliant he was for picking HK.
- lignuist 13y agoAt least it was possible for him to leave.
- adventured 13y agoIt was brilliant. Hong Kong didn't immediately jump when the US Government said to jump. It enabled Snowden to get away. So let's take score. US military has over a hundred bases globally. The CIA operates in over a hundred countries. The US intelligence budget is over $80 billion. The NSA can 'see' practically everything. And there goes Snowden, escaping on a common commercial flight out of Hong Kong. If anybody looks stupid, it's clearly the US Government.
- rdouble 13y agoOr maybe the USG doesn't really think he's all that important.
- vidarh 13y agoMaybe, but then their posturing still makes them look stupid.
- wavefunction 13y agoMaybe. Maybe they're just playing coy.
- vinceguidry 13y agoFrom watching CNN, the tone I get from the government is that they mainly want him so they can send a message to other potential leakers that this sort of behavior won't be tolerated. Is he important enough to move heaven and earth for? I didn't get that. The Obama administration needs to tread very carefully here, which is why, so long as Snowden doesn't make a stupid mistake, which it looks like he won't, he'll be able to squirrel himself away in Latin America. Obama, as head of state, needs to at least make the appearance he's protecting the power and prestige of the government. But he also needs to avoid looking like the terroristic assholes we're at war with. It's a very thin line, and I'm actually a little impressed with how he's handling this.
- crimsonzagar 13y agoOne question that I saw floating around on Twitter is how could the US Gov charge Snowden on espionage? Espionage doesn't apply or does it? Let's say you and I share some secret. When I pass that information you trusted in me to a third party (who is interested in acquiring that information) secretly for some favor (cash/kind) only then it becomes a case of espionage no? When I share facts that were meant to be confidential according to you with everyone through a public channel then how does it become a case of espionage? It's only a revelation albeit a forced one. How are we placed on this?
- pyre 13y agoEspionage is probably being defined in this instance as "aiding the enemy." It doesn't matter if you secretly divulge information. If you release information publicly that could be used by 'the enemy' then you have helped 'the enemy.'
- nknighthb 13y agoI haven't seen the indictment, but I assume he's been charged under one or more provisions of 18 USC Ch. 37[1], otherwise known as the Espionage Act of 1917, which covers things like "Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information". Dictionaries are not the final arbiter of criminal law. [1]http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-37 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-37 Edit: Criminal complaint here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20news/US-news-PDFs/Snowden-Complaint.pdf http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/A_U.S.%20new... As I expected, there are two Espionage Act charges, specifically: 18 USC 793(d) Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information 18 USC 798(a)(3) Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person
- wavefunction 13y ago"losing defense information" Funny how none of the defense contractors that were hacked by the Chinese had to face these charges. Some rules for some, other rules for the rest of us.
- Mahn 13y agoIs this a good idea for him anyway, to openly divulgue every step he takes? Or did the information just leak?
- lignuist 13y agoSince it is next to impossible to fly anonymously these days, being open about his route might actually protect him.
- rdouble 13y agoI wonder who is funding all of this travel.
- C1D 13y agoHim, probably. As he said he was getting paid allot to work for the NSA.
- visarga 13y agoIt's not so expensive.
- rdouble 13y agoYou're right, of course. It's only $450 to go direct from Hong Kong to Moscow on Aeroflot. Perhaps I should reconsider my summer vacation plans. It costs more to visit my parents in Minnesota. Ugh.
- maneesh 13y agoOn the downside you have to fly Aeroflot. I saw a flight attendant take a passenger's finished water cup, and reuse it to serve to another passenger. Classy.
- rheide 13y agoWhy do we know all this? If he had such a perfect plan why does the whole world know where he's headed? Or maybe he's just really bad at keeping secrets.
- Ihmahr 13y ago> Or maybe he's just really bad at keeping secrets. hihi.
- nknighthb 13y agoDo you think anyone taking a commercial flight is going to be able to hide that from US intelligence? Since there's no one else for him to hide from, what's the point of not telling the public? On the contrary, he probably feels much safer knowing it's impossible for US agents to silently intercept him en route.
- crocowhile 13y agoWe know all this because this is a message from those countries. It's big middle finger to the USA. They are saying: we know exactly where he is and what he is doing but we are not going to stop him - because fuck you. If you read the HK press release, this is so well stated actually "Snowden is going to russia and we are not going to do anything about it. BTW, what about you spying our embassy again?".
- vidarh 13y agoThe HK press release is a beautifully crafted example of how to give a giant middle finger without any bad language.
- nayefc 13y agoWe are all sick of the US acting like the big boss around the world. +1 to Hong Kong, Russia and the rest giving it the big middle finger.
- amorphid 13y agoMy step-father told me a great story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. While Washington and Moscow at each other's throats, he was on a US Navy warship turning away freighters carrying missiles bound for Cuba. As his boat got close to the Russian ships, the crews on either side would wave at each other and take pictures. Regular ol' people to be friendly no matter their background and are not representative of how their governments operate! Please remember the difference between us Americans and the policy makers who represent us :)
- Thiz 13y agoSo you fight for a better world seeking protection from the scum of the world? Damn contradiction.
- adventured 13y agoNot a contradiction in the least. The US is plenty scummy these days. It's busy completely violating the rights of its citizens, ignoring its own governing documents, acting just like a violent, thuggish 3rd world banana government. In fact, its behavior is exactly what I would expect out of someone like Hugo Chavez. Enemy of thy enemy. It makes perfect sense. What you've got now is a showdown between scumbag nations.
- lhnz 13y agoWhy are you so sure? [0] [0] http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-d...
- alan_cx 13y agoWho defines the scum of the earth? You? The so called leaders of the free world? Anything non western or not allied to the US is scum? If you are fighting against the hypocrisy and frankly tyranny of the west, where would you go to be protected? All that's left is allies, like the UK who will just hand you over, or as you put it, "scum". Whether you like it or not, he has very little choice, the US has too many countries in its pocket. You argument is down there with the other weasel language (hero, patriot, anti-American, what have you got to hide, etc) deployed against whistle blowers. So, where you go to try to be safe? Or are you too "patriotic", or is it scared, to ever criticize or expose the US? You want "damn contradiction"? How about claiming to be leaders of the free world while industrially mass spying on the so called free citizens you claim to lead?
- dasil003 13y agoThe thing that makes the American propoganda so powerful is that the US Constitution really is an amazing document created with the best of intents. So much so that it becomes very easy to whitewash the universal and permanent truth that government power is dangerous and corrupting.
- JulianMorrison 13y agoHe's structured his journey so that if the USA tries to force the plane to Havana down in a US airport, it will create an international incident with Russia. The USA could give two shits about antagonizing Cuba, but Russia is still scary.
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- Ihmahr 13y agoIf he wants to escape US law enforcement he should try to go to Guantanamo bay.
- epo 13y agos/escape US law enforcement/evade US law/ otherwise a rare touch of wit in this debate.
- codex 13y agoIt's ironic that Snowden's destination, Venezuela, is fairly authoritarian itself: the 2008 Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index rated Venezuela as a "Hybrid Regime", and as the least democratic state in South America. His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. I guess Snowden doesn't have a problem getting help from, or possibly living under, an authoritarian régime, if it suits his interests. Not a terribly principled man. Indeed, it would be better for the cause of domestic surveillance were he to subject himself to the mega-press event that would be a criminal trial in the U.S. Obviously the outcome would be much worse for him in that case.
- AJ007 13y agoIts a giant red flag that he fears the US more than any of these countries -- which, as Americans, would assume would happily interrogate him for years to get the valuable intelligence he allegedly holds. Watching very closely.
- Tloewald 13y agoIt's not a red flag. He's committed a crime in the US. If I shot someone in Australia and fled to Iran that wouldn't be a "red flag" about Australia. (I'm not saying Snowden did anything wrong, but he definitely committed crimes under US law.)
- Ihmahr 13y ago> His countries of aid so far (China, Russia, possibly Cuba) have a similarly poor record. How poor is their record (including foreign policy) compared with the US?
- wazoox 13y agoHonestly, China and Russia fare extremely bad. Cuba has been better these last few years, but still is a single party undemocratic regime. Venezuela OTOH seems quite reasonable.
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- ck2 13y agoTraveling within a few hundreds miles of Gitmo. The movie of this is going to be amazing. It's like a world tour of US foreign failures under Bush's fourth term. Can we start a whitehouse petition for Obama to give back his Nobel Prize?
- surfearth 13y agoI am curious to know how Snowden is financing his travel, lodgings and meals at this point since, presumably, his access to US financial accounts has been cut off. Does a warrant for arrest enable US authorities to place a hold on his accounts? Without a residency visa of some kind, it is difficult to open foreign financial accounts abroad. Perhaps he has a bag full of cash although that may create some issues of its own with various immigration authorities.