6 ms·

WikiLeaks' Assange urges support for Snowden

90 points by finspin 13y ago

mpyne 13y ago
How did that advice work for McAfee, or the 2 instructors that have been caught in the past year on the FBI Top 10 Most Wanted list?
ownagefool 13y ago
I find it kinda cute that the advice is that in order to get further away from the US, one should move closer.
- dnautics 13y ago
  assuredly, I think it wouldn't be a dumb move for him to wind up in say, northwest idaho, or somewhere seriously remote.
  - rdouble 13y ago
    Like where Ruby Ridge happened?
tptacek 13y ago
Here it would be worth mentioning Ecuador's track record on press freedom, which is among the worst in the world: http://www.cpj.org/americas/ecuador/ http://www.cpj.org/americas/ecuador/
- b6 13y ago
  The issue is independence from the US. I'm sure Assange is painfully aware of Ecuador's deficiencies.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Isn't "this bad thing is OK as long as the good guys are doing it" exactly what Snowden was complaining about?
    - b6 13y ago
      No. Nobody's saying it's OK. We're just talking about what countries are possible refuges from the US.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        If he was willing to stay in a country with poor support for human rights then he could have just stayed in the U.S. and kept his head down. If human rights is really what he's about then I'm not sure how raising Chinese prestige as a refugee while lowering U.S. prestige is really helpful to the overall cause.
        rdouble 13y ago
        He also could have leaked the info anonymously.
        b6 13y ago
        He said exactly why he came forward in the first interview -- that since he was breaking the law, he owed Americans an explanation. The guy is top notch.
        mpyne 13y ago
        So maybe he could have left a README.nfo in with the leaked documents? He wouldn't have needed to unveil himself that way and still been able to explain himself.
        b6 13y ago
        That's true. But this way is much more powerful. He's acting according to his principles, and not sneaking around. He's like the complete opposite of his enemies.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    Is he? For no particular reason, I would be more confident that Sowden is, but I'm not 100% certain about Assange.
- twelvechairs 13y ago
  Its worth noting that most of the press issues in Ecuador centre on national politics. The big news organisations are highly partisan (fox-news like), pro-right wing and anti-Correa. Correa won a big law suit against one last year for libel (mentioned in your link). Is this state-enforced intimidation of journalists? I don't think there is an easy answer... (Not trying to put my own opinion on this, just state some complexities of the issue)
  - tptacek 13y ago
    In other words, there's press freedom in Ecuador, as long as the press doesn't threaten the government of Ecuador.
  - foobarqux 13y ago
    In that case, which was decried by Ecudorean media as a crackdown on press freedom, the journalist wrote Correa "...ordered fire at will and without warning against a hospital full of civilians and innocent people..." and "committed crimes against humanity". Correa later pardoned the defendants. This was in relation to an attempted coup where the police force trapped Correa in a hospital. Also important to note owners of the media in Ecuador are opposed to Correa since he does not support their interests. As Chomsky said about this incident: Can you imagine if a coup against the President, supported by the press and executed by the police occurred in the United States? They would be put against a wall and shot. So while there may be problems with press freedom in Ecuador they should be put in the proper context and investigated more carefully than a "freedom of the press index" can convey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Correa#Lawsuit_against_the_El_Universo_newspaper_and_Big_Brother_authors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Correa#Lawsuit_against_t...
    - tptacek 13y ago
      Correa pardoned the defendants who were later brought back up on civil charges in the same matter.
cpeterso 13y ago
So where is the best refuge for whistleblowers? Is going underground (figuratively!) the best option?
- dhughes 13y ago
  Sealand? Vatican City?
  - krapp 13y ago
    Yeah, no one ever raids Sealand...
throwaway10001 13y ago
No can do. The LatAM will change leadership and he'd be screwed sooner or later. Sadly, USA probably pushed him to commit treason and spill the guts on what USA does to China. He's very valuable to the Chinese; USA should have granted him a pardon, if he stopped talking and secured the materials. Bad precedent but...
- dnautics 13y ago
  how is what he spilled treason? Article III: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
  - joelrunyon 13y ago
    Feinstein accused him of "treason" http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/304573-sen-feinstein-snowdens-leaks-are-treason http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/304... In which case, we're assuming that we're at war with either the entire world or ourselves. Either one puts us in a bad spot.
  - drgath 13y ago
    They don't need to actually convict him, only accuse him so he can be locked up indefinitely.
    - dnautics 13y ago
      point taken
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  He's been charged with espionage, not treason. Feinstein and Boehner's masturbatory public comments don't actually count for anything.
- b6 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
TempleOS 13y ago
Chavez was blaming the US. God said "Japan Industrious." Venezuala would flourish if it were conquered and ruled by white men. If we gave land back to mexico, it would be... MExico. Africans took white owned farms. Ba ha. China put intellectuals in labor camps. God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Esau gaveup his birth right. If God gives you a gift, He fucken hates it if you don't take it and thank Him.
uvdiv 13y ago
Iceland's Pirate Party lawmaker advised him to go to Cuba. "If I was his legal counsel I would urge him to look at many countries, not just Iceland," [Jónsdottír] added. “Maybe New Zealand, Ecuador, Cuba—many countries." http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/icelandic-lawmaker-asylum-for-nsa-leaker-far-from-a-sure-thing/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/icelandic-lawmake...
- danenania 13y ago
  I know little about the legal issues, but that strikes me as ill-advised. It's clear that US intelligence agencies aren't concerned by laws, so the power these organizations are able to project in a country is at least as important as its legal framework for extraditions. Snowden may be safe legally in Cuba, but would he be safe extralegally and safe physically? It seems that Hong Kong was chosen specifically as a place that would present more than just legal obstacles for the US.
  - uvdiv 13y ago
    I'm amazed there's any expectation of ideological commonality with Cuba, a repressive state with near-totalitarian control over information, where connecting to the internet is functionally illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Cuba
gesman 13y ago
This works well for alimony non-payers and for puny tax cheats. For global-scale celebrity like Snowden - anyone's guess. Too much at stake.
SurfScore 13y ago
These two are nowhere near the same. Assange leaked information that actually put people's lives in danger. He directly named operatives undercover in places with governments that wouldn't think twice about chopping their heads off. This gives Snowden a bad name, and in my opinion devalues what he has done.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  That wasn't Assange (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62299.html http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62299.html).
- foobarqux 13y ago
  First, those names were put out by a foolish mistake by a Guardian journalist by releasing the encryption key. Second, as far as I know, no one can point to a single person who was harmed or was even put in danger. And there were risk/damage assessments performed by the government so you would expect the fact that someone, without being specific, had been put in danger to be made public.

90 points by finspin 13y ago

mpyne 13y ago

How did that advice work for McAfee, or the 2 instructors that have been caught in the past year on the FBI Top 10 Most Wanted list?

ownagefool 13y ago

I find it kinda cute that the advice is that in order to get further away from the US, one should move closer.

dnautics 13y ago
assuredly, I think it wouldn't be a dumb move for him to wind up in say, northwest idaho, or somewhere seriously remote.
- rdouble 13y ago
  Like where Ruby Ridge happened?

tptacek 13y ago

Here it would be worth mentioning Ecuador's track record on press freedom, which is among the worst in the world: http://www.cpj.org/americas/ecuador/ http://www.cpj.org/americas/ecuador/

b6 13y ago
The issue is independence from the US. I'm sure Assange is painfully aware of Ecuador's deficiencies.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Isn't "this bad thing is OK as long as the good guys are doing it" exactly what Snowden was complaining about?
  - b6 13y ago
    No. Nobody's saying it's OK. We're just talking about what countries are possible refuges from the US.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      If he was willing to stay in a country with poor support for human rights then he could have just stayed in the U.S. and kept his head down. If human rights is really what he's about then I'm not sure how raising Chinese prestige as a refugee while lowering U.S. prestige is really helpful to the overall cause.
      - rdouble 13y ago
        He also could have leaked the info anonymously.
        b6 13y ago
        He said exactly why he came forward in the first interview -- that since he was breaking the law, he owed Americans an explanation. The guy is top notch.
        mpyne 13y ago
        So maybe he could have left a README.nfo in with the leaked documents? He wouldn't have needed to unveil himself that way and still been able to explain himself.
        b6 13y ago
        That's true. But this way is much more powerful. He's acting according to his principles, and not sneaking around. He's like the complete opposite of his enemies.
- dnautics 13y ago
  Is he? For no particular reason, I would be more confident that Sowden is, but I'm not 100% certain about Assange.
twelvechairs 13y ago
Its worth noting that most of the press issues in Ecuador centre on national politics. The big news organisations are highly partisan (fox-news like), pro-right wing and anti-Correa. Correa won a big law suit against one last year for libel (mentioned in your link). Is this state-enforced intimidation of journalists? I don't think there is an easy answer... (Not trying to put my own opinion on this, just state some complexities of the issue)
- tptacek 13y ago
  In other words, there's press freedom in Ecuador, as long as the press doesn't threaten the government of Ecuador.
- foobarqux 13y ago
  In that case, which was decried by Ecudorean media as a crackdown on press freedom, the journalist wrote Correa "...ordered fire at will and without warning against a hospital full of civilians and innocent people..." and "committed crimes against humanity". Correa later pardoned the defendants. This was in relation to an attempted coup where the police force trapped Correa in a hospital. Also important to note owners of the media in Ecuador are opposed to Correa since he does not support their interests. As Chomsky said about this incident: Can you imagine if a coup against the President, supported by the press and executed by the police occurred in the United States? They would be put against a wall and shot. So while there may be problems with press freedom in Ecuador they should be put in the proper context and investigated more carefully than a "freedom of the press index" can convey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Correa#Lawsuit_against_the_El_Universo_newspaper_and_Big_Brother_authors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Correa#Lawsuit_against_t...
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Correa pardoned the defendants who were later brought back up on civil charges in the same matter.

cpeterso 13y ago

So where is the best refuge for whistleblowers? Is going underground (figuratively!) the best option?

dhughes 13y ago
Sealand? Vatican City?
- krapp 13y ago
  Yeah, no one ever raids Sealand...

throwaway10001 13y ago

No can do. The LatAM will change leadership and he'd be screwed sooner or later. Sadly, USA probably pushed him to commit treason and spill the guts on what USA does to China. He's very valuable to the Chinese; USA should have granted him a pardon, if he stopped talking and secured the materials. Bad precedent but...

dnautics 13y ago
how is what he spilled treason? Article III: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."
- joelrunyon 13y ago
  Feinstein accused him of "treason" http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/304573-sen-feinstein-snowdens-leaks-are-treason http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/policy-and-strategy/304... In which case, we're assuming that we're at war with either the entire world or ourselves. Either one puts us in a bad spot.
- drgath 13y ago
  They don't need to actually convict him, only accuse him so he can be locked up indefinitely.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    point taken
anigbrowl 13y ago
He's been charged with espionage, not treason. Feinstein and Boehner's masturbatory public comments don't actually count for anything.
b6 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

TempleOS 13y ago

Chavez was blaming the US. God said "Japan Industrious." Venezuala would flourish if it were conquered and ruled by white men. If we gave land back to mexico, it would be... MExico. Africans took white owned farms. Ba ha. China put intellectuals in labor camps. God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Esau gaveup his birth right. If God gives you a gift, He fucken hates it if you don't take it and thank Him.

uvdiv 13y ago

Iceland's Pirate Party lawmaker advised him to go to Cuba. "If I was his legal counsel I would urge him to look at many countries, not just Iceland," [Jónsdottír] added. “Maybe New Zealand, Ecuador, Cuba—many countries." http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/icelandic-lawmaker-asylum-for-nsa-leaker-far-from-a-sure-thing/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/icelandic-lawmake...

danenania 13y ago
I know little about the legal issues, but that strikes me as ill-advised. It's clear that US intelligence agencies aren't concerned by laws, so the power these organizations are able to project in a country is at least as important as its legal framework for extraditions. Snowden may be safe legally in Cuba, but would he be safe extralegally and safe physically? It seems that Hong Kong was chosen specifically as a place that would present more than just legal obstacles for the US.
- uvdiv 13y ago
  I'm amazed there's any expectation of ideological commonality with Cuba, a repressive state with near-totalitarian control over information, where connecting to the internet is functionally illegal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Cuba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Cuba

gesman 13y ago

This works well for alimony non-payers and for puny tax cheats. For global-scale celebrity like Snowden - anyone's guess. Too much at stake.

SurfScore 13y ago

These two are nowhere near the same. Assange leaked information that actually put people's lives in danger. He directly named operatives undercover in places with governments that wouldn't think twice about chopping their heads off. This gives Snowden a bad name, and in my opinion devalues what he has done.

jjoonathan 13y ago
That wasn't Assange (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62299.html http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62299.html).
foobarqux 13y ago
First, those names were put out by a foolish mistake by a Guardian journalist by releasing the encryption key. Second, as far as I know, no one can point to a single person who was harmed or was even put in danger. And there were risk/damage assessments performed by the government so you would expect the fact that someone, without being specific, had been put in danger to be made public.