5 ms·

I think he's a better storyteller than thinker.

by noaharc 17y ago

SwellJoe 17y ago
But, man, what a story! I totally want to watch those girls play, and I hate spectator sports. Interesting statistics, though, and certainly a nice bit of motivation for those of us arming for our own battles with Goliaths in the near future (which, I would think, would be pretty much everyone here with a startup).
rdr 17y ago
could you please provide some examples of logical flaws or careless conclusions that the author has made in this particular story? i just read the article, but sorry i still don't quite understand what you mean by that assertion.
- lacker 17y ago
  One example is he could have asked any college or NBA coach why more teams don't run the press when they're down. You're likely to give up easy layups, for one. Instead he concludes it's because of social reasons forbidding it.
  - ellyagg 17y ago
    Right. A weak team that presses a strong team in college will lose by a devastating amount.
    - wildwood 17y ago
      Exactly. Reading this article, I kept thinking of the 2000 NCAA tournament, where Florida was pressing hard and winning, and seeming unstoppable. Until MSU stopped them pretty emphatically.
  - JoelSutherland 17y ago
    There are also great statistics on offensive/devensive efficiency rates given how quickly a team shoots in the shot clock: http://82games.com http://82games.com The reason there isn't much pressing in the NBA is because of the ball handling ability of an NBA point guard. Teams press at the end of a game to either manage the clock when ahead or as a desperate move when behind. Otherwise, NBA players are good enough to ensure easy baskets against a press. A great article about the Stat Movement in the NBA was written by Michael Lewis a few weeks back: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      I just love this image of Battier defending Bryant: http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/0903mailbag_battierkobe.jpg http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/0903mailbag_battierkobe.jpg Getting a "hand in the face" of a shooter is rarely more literal than that. It must drive Kobe nuts (though he would never admit it). Will be interesting to see if Battier can disrupt Kobe in the upcoming series.
  - neilk 17y ago
    Yeah, that is a flaw in the article. Possibly because it can't work against a coach who halfway understands his or her job. No chance of that in the pro leagues. But in the world of middle-school girls' basketball? Ranadivé might have hit on a strategy that works brilliantly... for middle school... if your goal is to place highly, and not to actually be champions. But that does underscore the point of the article, which is to understand the game that you are playing, your strengths, and your goals.
    - jcdreads 17y ago
      It's a strategy that probably also works brilliantly for helping the kids you coach have a lot more fun than they'd have if they got beaten soundly in every game they played.
  - jcl 17y ago
    He did interview a college coach: Rick Pitino. From what is said in the article, the press worked there, too.
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      What I found interesting, is that he did not include Rick Pitino's pro coaching career. I dug this up googling 'Pitino Knicks full court press': http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-pitino-confronting-hard-night-s-work.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/P/Pitino,%20Rick http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-piti... "Virtually everything that could go wrong for New York today did go wrong. The Knicks were outrebounded, 55-34. They shot 38.5 percent from the field. Johnny Newman, their second-leading playoff scorer, shot 0 for 8 from the field and did not score. And Chicago had little trouble dissecting New York's full-court press." This correlates with the other comment about the press not working in the NBA because the point guards are too good. The press did work for awhile for Pitino when he coached the Knicks, but evidently the other teams eventually developed counter measures that worked. He also coached the Celtics with an overall losing record. I'm not sure how much he pressed with the Celtics. I suppose the overall moral is that unconventional tactics work for awhile, but if the opponent is also willing to innovate eventually skill, strength and other traits will prevail. The full court press is predicated on out working your opponents, but no one in the history of the NBA worked harder than Michael Jordan, who had some talent and skill to go with it.
mynameishere 17y ago
He's an armchair psychologist. You get what you get.

I think he's a better storyteller than thinker.

by noaharc 17y ago

I think he's a better storyteller than thinker.

But, man, what a story! I totally want to watch those girls play, and I hate spectator sports. Interesting statistics, though, and certainly a nice bit of motivation for those of us arming for our own battles with Goliaths in the near future (which, I would think, would be pretty much everyone here with a startup).

rdr 17y ago

could you please provide some examples of logical flaws or careless conclusions that the author has made in this particular story? i just read the article, but sorry i still don't quite understand what you mean by that assertion.

lacker 17y ago
One example is he could have asked any college or NBA coach why more teams don't run the press when they're down. You're likely to give up easy layups, for one. Instead he concludes it's because of social reasons forbidding it.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  Right. A weak team that presses a strong team in college will lose by a devastating amount.
  - wildwood 17y ago
    Exactly. Reading this article, I kept thinking of the 2000 NCAA tournament, where Florida was pressing hard and winning, and seeming unstoppable. Until MSU stopped them pretty emphatically.
- JoelSutherland 17y ago
  There are also great statistics on offensive/devensive efficiency rates given how quickly a team shoots in the shot clock: http://82games.com http://82games.com The reason there isn't much pressing in the NBA is because of the ball handling ability of an NBA point guard. Teams press at the end of a game to either manage the clock when ahead or as a desperate move when behind. Otherwise, NBA players are good enough to ensure easy baskets against a press. A great article about the Stat Movement in the NBA was written by Michael Lewis a few weeks back: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    I just love this image of Battier defending Bryant: http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/0903mailbag_battierkobe.jpg http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/0903mailbag_battierkobe.jpg Getting a "hand in the face" of a shooter is rarely more literal than that. It must drive Kobe nuts (though he would never admit it). Will be interesting to see if Battier can disrupt Kobe in the upcoming series.
- neilk 17y ago
  Yeah, that is a flaw in the article. Possibly because it can't work against a coach who halfway understands his or her job. No chance of that in the pro leagues. But in the world of middle-school girls' basketball? Ranadivé might have hit on a strategy that works brilliantly... for middle school... if your goal is to place highly, and not to actually be champions. But that does underscore the point of the article, which is to understand the game that you are playing, your strengths, and your goals.
  - jcdreads 17y ago
    It's a strategy that probably also works brilliantly for helping the kids you coach have a lot more fun than they'd have if they got beaten soundly in every game they played.
- jcl 17y ago
  He did interview a college coach: Rick Pitino. From what is said in the article, the press worked there, too.
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    What I found interesting, is that he did not include Rick Pitino's pro coaching career. I dug this up googling 'Pitino Knicks full court press': http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-pitino-confronting-hard-night-s-work.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/P/Pitino,%20Rick http://www.nytimes.com/1989/05/14/sports/pro-basketball-piti... "Virtually everything that could go wrong for New York today did go wrong. The Knicks were outrebounded, 55-34. They shot 38.5 percent from the field. Johnny Newman, their second-leading playoff scorer, shot 0 for 8 from the field and did not score. And Chicago had little trouble dissecting New York's full-court press." This correlates with the other comment about the press not working in the NBA because the point guards are too good. The press did work for awhile for Pitino when he coached the Knicks, but evidently the other teams eventually developed counter measures that worked. He also coached the Celtics with an overall losing record. I'm not sure how much he pressed with the Celtics. I suppose the overall moral is that unconventional tactics work for awhile, but if the opponent is also willing to innovate eventually skill, strength and other traits will prevail. The full court press is predicated on out working your opponents, but no one in the history of the NBA worked harder than Michael Jordan, who had some talent and skill to go with it.

mynameishere 17y ago

He's an armchair psychologist. You get what you get.