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NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY
- baddox 13y agoGood old competition.
- jpdoctor 13y agoIn this case, competition between campaign donors for state senators in NY.
- untog 13y agoAny evidence to back up Musk's claim? Being a Senator's employee must be annoying sometimes. "Hi, I'm calling to defend Telsa Motors because its CEO told me to. No, I do not know anything more about the topic I am calling about"
- agildehaus 13y agoHe referenced the bill shortly thereafter: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...
- cobrausn 13y agoThanks for finding that. At the time I posted this, he hadn't linked the bill.
- just2n 13y agoEnglish, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?
- epoxyhockey 13y agoLaw is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Because lawyers love buggy code.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 13y ago> English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Compared to what, exactly? > Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. That's a really common problem. > Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Mostly, because there is no first party money in it, and there's considerable expense to do it as a third-party solution, because of exactly the problem that this is directed at solving. There's quite a bit of money in third-party solutions, which are provided by several vendors to the people who have the money and motivation to pay for them (people who professionally deal with the law), as components of wider research suites that cover more than just statute law (including many copyright-protected sources). Third-party solutions that use only the free-of-copyright public information don't have a lot of market, and would have a lot of expense to create and maintain (not the system, so much as keeping the data current.)
- nawitus 13y agoEnglish is not the problem here. You can write sufficiently clear language (which is not formated with caps lock..) in English. The problem is just the custom in United States of writing complex laws instead of writing the main points and letting the courts interpret it. For example, here's[1] a reasonably sane-looking law written in English. 1. http://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/1994/en19940543.pdf http://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/1994/en19940543.pdf
- ttcbj 13y agoI recently read Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses. RM built most major highways and parks in NY state, and effectively became an absolute ruler in his domain. For 40 years he exercised near total control. It made me understand the political process completely different way. For RM, the 'broken' differencing format was a feature, not a bug. It allowed him to slip though all kinds of law changes without people understanding what he was up to. The book has many, many examples of exactly this differencing format being put to use to gain power. The point about the differencing format is more broadly true - prior to reading the book, I thought politics was about having the right ideas, and explaining them clearly. But the book compellingly argues that politics is really about obtaining and wielding power. The people who thrive in politics are more interested in power than ideas. It is a book that is well worth reading, especially if you are an idealistic programmer (like I was) who cannot understand why we can't just 'clean politics up.' (Also, Caro's LBJ biography is awesome, with similar themes.)
- doughj3 13y agoJust wanted to also share the link on NY's OpenLegislation[1], an open source project[2]. [1] http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/A7844A-2013 http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/A7844A-2013 [2] https://github.com/nysenate/OpenLegislation https://github.com/nysenate/OpenLegislation
- CatMtKing 13y agoSo.. what part of it specifically is anti-Tesla? That is one painful read. I need an abstract or some annotations.
- uptown 13y agoAdditional details about the situation: "Tesla Clashes With Car Dealers" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324049504578541902814606098.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732404950457854... or http://bit.ly/16UCd7s http://bit.ly/16UCd7s
- SomeCallMeTim 13y agoWSJ is behind a paywall. :(
- danielweber 13y agoI read it just fine, no special tricks on my part.
- sfall 13y agothey let you read a few a month at no cost
- rgraham 13y agoIncognito window + Google search the text for the article title
- SomeCallMeTim 13y agoThanks for the hint. :)
- CatMtKing 13y agoThanks. That helped me figure out what the bill was about. So basically the status quo is that manufacturers are legally forced to go through franchised car dealers to sell their cars. And this is because Ford used independent car dealers to sell their cars initially; but as time went on and manufacturers wanted to sell directly, these laws were passed to protect existing franchised car dealerships.
- leephillips 13y agoI bet it does get annoying trying to find ways to spin your boss's servitude to a cartel of car dealerships as somehow being for the benefit of the public.
- Shivetya 13y agoThe current arrangement came about as a means to benefit the manufacturers. The carrot was that they in turn would not attempt to circumvent the dealer system. Hence manufactures would produce cars in volume and sell them to the dealers. The dealers who made that investment in buying those cars then sold them for a profit. Dealers are protected by these same laws usually geographically. This in some way insulated the manufacturers from market fluctuations and allowed more efficient factories. Plus you cannot pass up the test drive. Really, would you buy a car without a test drive? Dealers took that job which does incur some risk of loss. It was a good idea at the time. Society was not as integrated as it now, you could not just look up your car in any sense of the word we do now. Just like other franchise setups, they are entrenched and not necessarily bad. Would you rather be beholden to a large auto maker or have a small shop to talk to in the event of a problem? A sole dealership will be more likely want to create a long term relationship and would work to solve you problems, a distant manufacturer who is large could afford to blow you off.
- cobrausn 13y agoNone of your arguments tell me why this kind of relationship should be enforced by law, only why you might want to buy from a dealer and not a manufacturer directly.
- frogpelt 13y agoNot now. But his arguments might tell you why the laws were created in the first place. Protection of consumers like you and me. I honestly I can't see a good reason for labor unions to exist anymore either, but they're still around and have plenty of politicians on their side.
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- echohack 13y agoHow does this bill effect Telsa? Does Telsa have it's own company run franchises in New York or something? I've read the bill (http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term=2013&Summary=Y&Text=Y http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...) several times now, and it only seems to prohibit the franchisor from forcing franchisees from doing certain things. I'm not seeing text in here like, "We hereby force all franchisors to sell cars through franchisees." or "Selling directly to consumers is prohibited." or anything of the sort. I am not a lawyer, perhaps someone more familiar with how selling cars works want to explain?
- muzz 13y agoPlanet Money had a good article on this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-buying-a-car-never-changes http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/19/172402376/why-buyi... Basically dealers have codified protections via the franchise laws(even in places like Texas, North Carolina, etc), and this hinders the direct sale of autos. Not just from Tesla, but also CarsDirect, Costco, etc.
- echohack 13y agoTo help answer my own question, I think I get it, maybe... "The commissioner shall not issue any certificate of registration authorized by this section to any franchisor, MANUFACTURER, DISTRIBUTOR BRANCH OR FACTORY BRANCH..." The rest of bill then talks all about franchisors, and mentions manufacturers very little. So perhaps there's something in here that doesn't allow New York to give registration to manufacturers, and only makes rules for franchisors. Still, this stuff is arcane. It's like reading assembly code.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- revelation 13y agoI think it might be this? The format is terrible. The commissioner shall not issue any certificate of registration authorized by this section to any franchisor, MANUFACTURER, DISTRIBUTOR BRANCH OR FACTORY BRANCH, (caps are additions) I think the way Tesla has been doing business in many states is that they have just applied for dealership licenses.
- larrys 13y agoIs this the way "it's" really supposed to work? Someone everyone "knows" says something and people immediately spring into action on the social media machine. Without considering anything about the situation. Just "it's the old way, we are new, this must be bad" please help us. Pretty soon things like this will become so commonplace they will be ignored (by people or the people being contacted) the same way 10 tornados a day would fail to get the attention of anyone but those directly impacted.
- bconway 13y agoIt would be interesting to hear the other side of the story here.
- leetrout 13y agoBecause the government is completely ran by corporations and Musk isn't in "the club" (yet). Gone are the days where the consumer is uneducated and the supplier doesn't have a way to easily and effectively communicate with customers everywhere from anywhere. There's a pretty good doc on Netflix, "Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream", which covers some of the financial backing of congress and how it affects things (although that's not the primary focus). I'm sure this plays out at a state level, too. I witnessed it first hand growing up in Eastern Kentucky and how the coal companies threw their money and weight around.
- revelation 13y agoNo need to bring out the big conspiracy guns, this is just good olde' local corruption.
- pygy_ 13y agoYou restated his point, less dramatically.
- Symmetry 13y agoNot at all. This isn't "corporations" but a coalition of small businesses.
- Pwnguinz 13y agoHuh? "Corporation" is merely a registration status. A small-time business/startup may very well be incorporated as a Delaware C Corp.
- Symmetry 13y agoYes, some of those dealerships (but not all) are probably organized as corporations, but most people (and clearly the OP with his reference to that documentary) mean it to refer to joint stock corporations.
- smackfu 13y agoTitle should really say "NY State Senators." (It used to say NY Senators which I would assume is NY US Senators, but it's been changed.)
- peterwwillis 13y ago"NY State Senators allegedly trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY" would be nice too. Though really, even that's incorrect: it's the automakers who are alleged to be doing this, not state senators. But screw it, let's spread some FUD. Let me go post on Facebook about how the government is trying to destroy Elon Musk.
- cobrausn 13y agoLast I checked, bills get introduced by representatives, not auto dealers.
- peterwwillis 13y agoCongratulations, you missed the point.
- cobrausn 13y agoFeel free to restate it in such a way that it isn't so easily missed.
- peterwwillis 13y agoHis tweet makes the claim that 'auto dealers' specifically are the ones trying to get the bill passed. I was even so quick as to use the wrong terminology 'automaker', which is a different thing entirely. Auto dealers are basically the guys trying to screw you over on the price of a new car. In other words, NOT Ford, or Toyota, or Volvo. But the guys selling the cars. This is equivalent to, for example, mistaking the guy who runs a BP gas station with BP the company. Boycotting the gas station does jack shit to the bottom line of BP, though it does make for nasty public relations. On top of that, he does so with no evidence that 'auto dealers' are even behind this bill being pushed through. Maybe it is the auto makers and not the dealers. Maybe it's a different source entirely, like the oil industry. Who the fuck knows? And that's my point - this is an ambiguous incendiary tweet alleging something we don't know and can't prove. The only thing that's a real fact is there's a bill in New York and Elon Musk wants you to get mad about it.
- paddy_m 13y agohttp://www.latfor.state.ny.us/maps/?sec=2012s http://www.latfor.state.ny.us/maps/?sec=2012s seems to be the best place to figure out what district you are in. While you are at it, ask your senator to protect pedestrians. http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/06/21/marty-golden-needs-to-hear-from-new-yorkers-who-want-speed-cameras/ http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/06/21/marty-golden-needs-to-...
- shmerl 13y agoA source? Is it a proposed bill or a rumor?
- CrunchyJams 13y agoMy favorite part is when he didn't say how or why
- ceejayoz 13y agoSure he did, in subsequent tweets.
- shmerl 13y agoI general, I find it bizarre that a law should exist, that protects some middleman position. Isn't it nonsense to protect such monopoly through the law? How can it coexist with the antitrust regulations?
- jusben1369 13y agoIf you find a law that's been on the books for a long time "bizarre" show some restraint. There is likely a very good set of reasons for its existence. Go and research those and see if you agree with them or not. But these "I'm totally bewildered how could this possibly be?!" comments add very little.
- shmerl 13y agoIf instead of brushing it off you could explain what those reasons are, it could be more helpful. Thus my question. If you don't know them and assume they exist - I'm not convinced. There are bad laws which are pushed in by various lobbies (like DMCA). The fact that they can exist long is not a proof of the sanity of such laws.
- joezydeco 13y agoThis Planet Money podcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/12/171814201/episode-435-why-buying-a-car-is-so-awful http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/12/171814201/episode-... and this paper (PDF) http://faculty.som.yale.edu/FionaScottMorton/documents/StateFranchiseLawsDealerTerminationsandtheAutoCrisis.pdf http://faculty.som.yale.edu/FionaScottMorton/documents/State... Should be a useful primer. It explains how the dealership/franchise structure came to be, and why automakers prefer this model today.
- shmerl 13y agoI listened to the podcast. So it boils down to the fact that in the past manufacturers had really rough relations with dealers, and the later passed tons of protection laws which gave them essentially a solid monopoly. And most of those reasons have no meaning today. Though I didn't get the part that fighting that now is futile (there were not enough details in the story). If enough people will be against these laws - they'll be cancelled, no matter how much power these dealers wield.
- jusben1369 13y agoI applaud Tesla for trying super hard to disrupt the current selling model that's existed for decades. I understand why existing participants in the market wonder why this new competitor can play by a different set of rules. The irony is that once (if) Tesla starts selling cars in significant volume their purely direct/internet/word of mouth model will break down and they'll probably find themselves....... establishing dealerships!
- pedrocr 13y ago>The irony is that once (if) Tesla starts selling cars in significant volume their purely direct/internet/word of mouth model will break down and they'll probably find themselves....... establishing dealerships! How come? In my experience dealerships provide a horrible experience, where you're always thinking "how am I being ripped off here?". What value do they provide that is suddenly required once you reach scale?
- jusben1369 13y agoShort answer: Think "the Apple Store" of car dealerships. Long answer: I don't think the mass market is in Tesla's future anymore. They're too late. There are too many competitive new entry level entrants from Honda, Nissan, Ford etc. I don't think Musk cares. He strikes me as a guy with a mission - to get us off fossil fuels - and he's doing that. I think his deal to supply the motor industry shows you where Tesla will be. Kind of like an "Intel Inside" strategy (total wild guess)
- nrivadeneira 13y agoHow is the Apple Store an analogy to Tesla establishing dealerships? As far as I know, Apple Stores are owned and operated directly by Apple and are thus direct sales, while dealerships are third-parties/franchisees that buy from the manufacturer and re-sell to the consumer.
- jusben1369 13y ago
- frogpelt 13y agoDealers in North Carolina are attempting a similar tactic. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/13/north_carolina_tesla_ban_bill_would_prevent_unfair_competition_with_car.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/13/north_car... UPDATE: Actually it appears Tesla is having a rough go of it in a lot of states, Colorado being the first one to oppose their efforts: http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20130525/APF/1305250680 http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20130525/APF/130525068...
- cobrausn 13y agoStatus update: The NY State Senate appears to be unconvinced. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/348157673944014848 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/348157673944014848
- ggamecrazy 13y agoIf you live in New York, please contact your senator and let him know what you think, regardless of your opinion. http://www.nysenate.gov/senators http://www.nysenate.gov/senators
- meerita 13y agoI will appreciate if anyone can address me some explanation about this matter. Personally I want to know why auto dealers want to shut down Tesla, aren't they just dealers, are they?
- sigil 13y ago"My dear colleagues, every day great quantities of wood come into Paris, and draw out of it large sums of money. If this goes on, we shall all be ruined in three years, and what will become of the poor people? [Bravo.] Let us prohibit foreign wood. I am not speaking for myself, for you could not make a tooth-pick out of all the wood I own. I am, therefore, perfectly disinterested. [Good, good.] But here is Pierre, who has a park, and he will keep our fellow-citizens from freezing. They will no longer be in a state of dependence on the charcoal dealers of the Yonne. Have you ever thought of the risk we run of dying of cold, if the proprietors of these foreign forests should take it into their heads not to bring any more wood to Paris? Let us, therefore, prohibit wood. By this means we shall stop the drain of specie, we shall start the wood-chopping business, and open to our workmen a new source of labor and wages. [Applause.]" -- Bastiat, Sophisms of the Protectionists http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20161/20161-h/20161-h.htm http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20161/20161-h/20161-h.htm
- dram 13y agoMay I add: "To rob the public, it is necessary to deceive them. To deceive them, it is necessary to persuade them that they are robbed for their own advantage, and to induce them to accept in exchange for their property, imaginary services, and often worse. Hence spring Sophisms in all their varieties. Then, since Force is held in check, Sophistry is no longer only an evil; it is the genius of evil, and requires a check in its turn. This check must be the enlightenment of the public, which must be rendered more subtle than the subtle, as it is already stronger than the strong." -- Bastiat, Sophisms of the Protectionists
- notdrunkatall 13y agoDamn.
- rorrr2 13y agoI don't understand why Elon can't register another corp to be an exclusive dealer for Tesla? Or not an exclusive, but add an outrageous fee to become a member of "Tesla Dealer" club.