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Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a

by ebbv 13y ago

Dear fellow HN dwellers, If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that aren't sexual assault that you could do before resorting to that. If you believe that's a reasonable "move" to make, then you not only have no imagination, but your judgment of what's acceptable behavior is way, way off. It doesn't matter if this is a woman who you're behind closed doors with for the first time, that's not a normal, acceptable "move". That kind of thing is for people already in an established, ongoing relationship with a solid foundation of consent. Without that consent, it is assault. I strongly urge all of you who "do not see the problem" with the author's writings to do more research into exactly what consent is, and what women (as a whole, obviously it varies from individual to individual) see as acceptable, expected behavior. If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours. Sincerely, A married, 34 year old HNer who is ashamed of this community right now. EDIT: I thought this was obvious but I have already read all the comments in this thread and all the "context" the excusers are providing. If you think pointing me to that again is refuting my points, then you didn't understand what I wrote.

Metrop0218 13y ago
"it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours." Amen brother.
- Cushman 13y ago
  Just to be clear, because this is something misogynists like to pick on, both matter. The point of this is that you can't assume their consent just because you do. Of course, men who don't have experience with not having the power to consent struggle with this idea.
  - angersock 13y ago
    Well put.
  - tomp 13y ago
    Why do you have to disgrace yourself by using the word "misogynist"?
- tomp 13y ago
  That's true, but if she lacks consent, she should also voice it/make it clear at some point (disregarding obviously illegal power-imbalanced situations such as student/teacher, boss/worker, ...). Someone shouldn't be charged with rape just because their partner, after passionately and vigorously fucking the whole night, says she actually didn't want to the whole time.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Anderkent 13y ago
> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." That quote was never given as 'taking the first step'. It was given as "how to begin when you're finally alone in the bedroom with mutual consent for sex". That is obvious even after only reading the one part of his 'guide' that includes this quote.
throwaway4004 13y ago
You haven't read the material, you took a quote out of context. You don't know what you are talking about. Congrats on being married and 34????
garethadams 13y ago
It's a good job the "pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it" advice comes in the section of things you do after you're hundreds of moves down the line and you're alone in an intimate setting with a girl, after a number of dates then. The counter-article writer doesn't make clear that he's picked quotes from all over the guide, they aren't all "the first thing you should do" quotes
- scarmig 13y ago
  ”5) Get CLOSE to her, damn it! To quote Rob Judge, “Personal space is for pussies.” I already told you that the most successful seducers are those who can’t keep their hands off of women. Well you’re not gonna be able to do that if you aren’t in close! ” “All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye contact, and were shameless in their physicality. Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That’s hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically.” “Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.” I really can't believe I'm getting into this argument when a much more interesting discussion is whether platforms have a responsibility to be open to all comers, but alas. You boys need a lesson in basic empathy. Imagine you're in a bar, and a super built gay guy reeking of booze comes up to you and sits uncomfortably close to you. His face is inches away from yours but as you try to pull away he scoots himself forward. His hand brushes lightly on yours. After a couple minutes of ignoring your obvious lack of interest he places his hand on your inner thigh, which you brush away and tell him he's being a creep, and walk away to a different area. But he KNOWS that even as you reject his advances you're really getting turned on, that you're aroused physically and psychologically. So he follows you, sits next to you, and picks you up and puts you on his lap. Now, don't skip that scenario: I want you to stop and think about it in detail. How would it make you feel? Do you feel turned on? Do you feel violated?
  - Helianthus 13y ago
    >You boys need a lesson in basic empathy. Don't talk down to me. >Now, don't skip that scenario: I want you to stop and think about it in detail. How would it make you feel? Do you feel turned on? Do you feel violated? I take control of the situation by removing myself from the situation or making a scene. And I get over it. Look, I'm queer and I'm actually pretty sympathetic to the anti-seddit et al crowd. But the notion that I'm supposed to care about every person's feelings around me is nonsensical. It's exactly the kind of sentiment that you're violating by lecturing your audience. You're _deliberately_ provoking an uncomfortable reaction and prioritizing your own emotions above those of others. And I'm going to tell you to shove off, and get over it. This isn't about rape, the violent action and definable crime. It's about communication in a social space. And you can't communicate if you can't aggress, as you have _just demonstrated_.
kristofferR 13y ago
You do realize that you're saying exactly the same thing about consent that the book is, right? The misquoted parts is from the chapter about when you're already in a relationship, and ready to get physical.
- ivanca 13y ago
  Correct; this is yet another reaction started by radical feminists and followed by naive no-time-to-read-if-true followers; (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc)
- dwb 13y ago
  The concept of consent does not vanish when you're in a relationship, and if you need a guide – especially one that advocates being dominant – then heaven help you.
shawabawa3 13y ago
> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that aren't sexual assault that you could do before resorting to that. Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years? In many contexts it would be sexual assault, but in many it wouldn't be. I think you're just assuming it's sexual assault because you don't like the idea of a book that teaches people how to "pick up women" FYI, the context behind that sentence is: > offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around
- Metrop0218 13y ago
  "Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years?" It is if she says it is. That's the whole point, you don't decide, the circumstances don't decide, only she can decide.
  - shawabawa3 13y ago
    And the book says "If she says no, stop immediately". My point was that I would hope I don't have to ask permission after 5 years without it being sexual assault, therefore whether that action is sexual assault is context dependent.
    - king_jester 13y ago
      Long term relationships are different from early dating, you have your own communication and boundaries with your long term partner that are really different than when you are first starting out. However, domestic rape is real and yes you can totally sexually assault your partner and you do not have automatic consent just because you've been in a relationship. That said, this book advocates doing physically violating things to all women you would date in a short term time period, which is the kind of thing a serial rapist does.
- nkohari 13y ago
  > Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years? Do you need to read a how-to book in order to seduce your girlfriend of 5 years?
jgh 13y ago
Thank you for more eloquently describing my feelings about this thread than I could have. A fellow married HNer in his 30s.
cm2012 13y ago
First off, I'm also married and have never read a seduction book. However, I'd like to quote some other comments from this thread to refute you. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape. > And all seduction guides do is offer advise on how to do that, but somehow what is acceptable for every issue of Cosmo (and a fair number of mens magazines) isn't acceptable for a guide on kickstarter. Also, would all women who have seen the full story and context call it assault? Would they call it assault in real life? Probably not.
- Cushman 13y ago
  > Also, would all women who have seen the full story and context call it assault? Would they call it assault in real life? Probably not. The point of this exercise is to be proactive about not hurting people. "Would they call it assault?" is a question that should simply not be on the table. This isn't a difficult concept.
  - tomp 13y ago
    Yes, because sensible people (men and women) wouldn't call a well-meaning, but miscalibrated and thus unwelcome kiss sexual assault.
    - king_jester 13y ago
      Survivors of sexual assault and rape may most certainly call an unwelcome kiss sexual assault and it may be a hugely triggering thing that causes a relapse. You don't get to decide what someone's boundaries are just because you want something from them.
      - hackinthebochs 13y ago
angersock 13y ago
Have some context: http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe Sincerely, A HNer who is ashamed of the lack of reading comprehension of this community right now.
- jenius 13y ago
  Woah, really big difference here. I wish this was up towards the top of the comments so people got both sides of the issue before pointing fingers.
  - angersock 13y ago
    To be fair, it could just be some other random jerk on 'net writing something sympathetic. Without the source document, though, it's not really easy to say either way. I'm also not impressed with the author's writing in any event.
    - xtrumanx 13y ago
      > To be fair, it could just be some other random jerk on 'net writing something sympathetic. Nope. The author of the book who was promoting his project on reddit provided the linked the above pastebin text himself. [0] http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_...
  - loumf 13y ago
    To my understanding the two sides of this issue are whether or not Kickstarter has the right to choose what is on their site. I say they do. I do not understand the position that they must allow any project even if they don't want to (as long as they comply with the law) The issue of whether this book is misogynist or not doesn't really matter. You can still buy it if you want or any other legal material you want to buy. Just not on Kickstarter. There are many stores that don't sell things I want to buy.
    - newnewnew 13y ago
knowaveragejoe 13y ago
Good lord, you need to look into the context of the cherry-picked quotes from the guide.
deleted 13y ago
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WA 13y ago
Ask 100 women if they find it romantic to be kissed without being asked or if they want to be asked first. I'm pretty sure the answer is: being kissed, don't ask. The author writes on reddit: IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line: "No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with." Memorize that line. It is your go-to when faced with resistance. Say it genuinely, without presumption. All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable. You'll be no different. If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later. So I really don't see where this is assault by not asking first. Thing is, if you try to kiss her and she doesn't want it, she'll turn away and that's it.
- king_jester 13y ago
  This is such a load of shit. There are so many circumstances in which someone may feel powerless to say something or engage in a resistive act, or may be physically incapable of doing so that the time. Rapists use the justification of lack of "acceptable" resistive force all the time, there is no place for this kind of comment.
  - tomp 13y ago
    There's a big difference between "resistive force" and saying no. Anyone can say no, at least in situations in which both partners are of equal power. In situations where one partner has greater power than the other, it's usually illegal for them to be intimate anyways (teacher/student, employer/employee). Also, if you, say, kiss someone without their explicit consent, I think it's pretty obvious when they are not kissing you back/want to stop (actually, I hope - never been in that situation, really, but at least I have lots of passionate kisses as a benchmark).
    - king_jester 13y ago
      1) Power imbalance exists in general between men and women, in favor of men 2) Rapists and society at large often blame rape victims for not resisting enough. Rapists do not have a problem with a lack of consent and relying on victims to stop their own assault is completely unacceptable. The kickstarter project in question advocated for physically violating actions to be undertaken by would-be assaulters and put the burden of stopping assault on victims and should this kind of thing should never be supported period.
rlt 13y ago
If I'm in a club and I pull my dick out and forcibly place a random woman's hand on it, then of course that's sexual assault. If I do the same thing in a bedroom with a woman who I've already been (consensually) fondling, is it?
- BCM43 13y ago
  If you do it without asking, then yes.
  - rlt 13y ago
    Really? Have you explicitly ask for permission every at every step of physical escalation in every relationship you've ever been in? At some point there's implied consent to continue moving forward. If not, then I fear there are hundreds of millions of sexual assaults every day.
- mamoswined 13y ago
  I would personally very much not like that move. If we are fondling, it will get to the point where I'm touching the guy's dick without any sort of prodding on his part, unless he does something to turn me off like forcibly place my hand on his dick.
hacker789 13y ago
"Take your exposed penis, and thrust it into her vagina. Don't wait for her to put it in for you. Be dominant." That could be instructions for rape. Or it could be instructions for the kind of a sex that millions of straight couples have every day. It all depends on the quote's context, right? Right? So stop taking quotes out of context from the author. > If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours. Your language is intentionally misleading. What matters is the woman with whom you're interacting. Feminist internet commenters can neither give consent nor take it away. And the author is severely explicit about respecting consent. His quotes are being butchered.
- angersock 13y ago
  "Take your exposed penis, and thrust it into her vagina." wait wait wait that's what ive been doing wrong this whole time? and here i was thinking i was just sterile! EDIT: Really, folks? No sense of humor here sometimes, I swear. Not to worry--the NSA is keeping record of jokes for all posterity!
  - driverdan 13y ago
    This isn't Reddit. Pointless humor posts are discouraged and downvoted.
    - angersock 13y ago
      Eh, it depends, honestly. HN shouldn't be srs bznz all the time.
- jmduke 13y ago
  Or it could be instructions for the kind of a sex that millions of straight couples have every day. It all depends on the quote's context, right? This is a book on seduction, not a book on long-term relationships. I'm not defending the OP, but don't be intentionally dense.
  - 13y ago
pizza234 13y ago
The same women that scream "assault", are very likely to have taking the of a stranger, consensually, in their hand, at least once in their lives. What you naively don't know, is that in this field, the culture is very far from reality. Some ahem "people" would scream horror to things that they would secretly do. It's nothing new under the sun.
- blocking_io 13y ago
  Are you actually arguing that if a woman has touched a penis in her life before, she is consenting to touching all future penises? Either you mean that or your writing is appalling.
mindcrime 13y ago
If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." Seduction is not inherently misogynistic, even if some seducers are misogynists. And whether an action is "sexual assault" or not is heavily context dependent. Let me ask you this... every time you go to kiss your spouse, do you ask "May I kiss you" first? If not, then by the standard you are setting, you are assaulting them every time you initiate a kiss.
Samuel_Michon 13y ago
> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that aren't sexual assault that you could do before resorting to that. Context: this is part of the penultimate chapter, which is about what to do when you’ve gone on several dates with a woman and now you’re alone with her. Many women expect men to take the first step, the chapter explains how to interpret the signs and act on them. One of the first sentences of the chapter is: “IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately” The part about taking out your dick is after the sections about kissing, fondling and fingering. NOT taking out your dick at this point would be more curious. The chapter in question so you can judge for yourself: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... Now, I don‘t particularly like the tone of this guide and I don’t think it‘s very insightful or well-written, but it’s definitely not anything new or out of line. In the genre, I personally prefer the writings of David DeAngelo.
ownagefool 13y ago
While I agree with the gist of the post, I disagree with this part:- "If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours." We live in a world where not everyone is resonable. Anyone suggesting you forcibly put someones hand on your penis as a courting move is not resonable. However there are also many woman who are also not resonable and you shouldn't simply back them up just because they're woman. I also haven't read the book, so have no real opinion on it's content.
gregd 13y ago
And since nobody is mentioning this, women should be very afraid of the 800 or so individuals who purchased this vile piece of crap.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
aeorgnoieang 13y ago
There is no obvious fact of the matter about "exactly what consent is, and what women (as a whole, obviously it varies from individual to individual) see as acceptable, expected behavior". Your own words contradict themselves; should we research what women "as a whole" think or judge or should we research individual women? Should we consult you personally if there is any disagreement or conflict among the results of these two lines of research?
tomjen3 13y ago
I don't believe you have actually understood the arguments put forth against your position, even if you have read the comments, but please even if you disagree with us, don't go around and mindlessly brand us as evil (or "you have a problem"). It only needlessly devides and cheapens the discussion.
malandrew 13y ago
"Without that consent, it is assault." I hate to be contrarian, because by the standards in most cultural spaces in the US I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, but I've traveled enough to know that there are exceptions to the exceptions people are taking with this material when you take culture differences into account. The majority of women in the majority of cultural spaces we on HN frequent of are saying it is assault. In those spaces and for those women it is. However this is not a universal truth. I've lived abroad several times in different places and the behavior of women in certain culture actively promotes/encourages the behavior being promoted by this book. For example, I've lived in Rio de Janeiro (and several places in the US) and there in particular you are expected, by the women, to behave in the manner promoted by this book otherwise you simply won't meet women when going out to many night venues. Seriously, the nice guy approach will net you not one number in a nightclub/dance club in Rio, you actually have to "manhandle" women to enter into a conversation. I'm a decent looking guy and normally don't have too much difficulty meeting women, but when I was in Rio, my US-acceptable "passivity" relative to the culture norm in Rio, got me absolutely no where there. It was only when I forced myself to be physically assertive that women started responding well and flirting back and I started getting dates. With this in mind, I honestly would not be surprised if the backlash we are seeing here is indicative of a cultural echo chamber that finds this behavior reprehensible that is also ignorant of of the existance of cultural spaces in the US where this behavior is not only acceptable but welcomed by women, and that this guide is geared towards men who frequent those cultural spaces. Examples of cultural spaces in the US where this behavior is expected by women are probably the same spaces that the cast of Jersey Shore and their real life analogues frequent. Watch this video of interviews with people on a certain beach on the Jersey shore and try to tell me that these assertive "mating practices" are not only acceptable but welcome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5weU2olAl-E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5weU2olAl-E . What is unfortunate is that behavior that is acceptable in those spaces bleeds intquo the common cultural spaces where this is not acceptable behavior. Anyways, I'm neither defending nor supporting this kickstarter, but merely saying that a lot of the people on their high horse need to realize the relativism of culture and that some things that may be wildly offensive to many women may actually be encouraged by certain subsets of women in certain cultural spaces. With this in mind, public outcry and censorship of material you may find objectional can sometimes suppress culture and you need to be aware of when you may be doing so. I think Neil Gaiman's thoughts "Why defend freedom of icky speech" is particularly relevant here. http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... I personally would prefer that this speech be protected even if I don't agree with it, but that Kickstarter require that the author write a chapter on the importance of being discriminatory in practicing this behavior in cultural spaces where it is not acceptable and helping them identify women that don't welcome these advances in those cultural spaces where they may be acceptable.
newslyhorrified 13y ago
>If you believe that's a reasonable "move" to make, then you not only have no imagination, but your judgment of what's acceptable behavior is way, way off. It doesn't matter if this is a woman who you're behind closed doors with for the first time, that's not a normal, acceptable "move". That kind of thing is for people already in an established, ongoing relationship with a solid foundation of consent. Reading these comments has absolutely horrified me. I just realized that I have been sexually assaulted dozens of times and even raped on multiple occasions. I was raped by a 17 year old girl when I was just 16 - and a virgin. She bought me alcohol, got me drunk, and while I was laying on my back on the couch, she got on top of me and without asking, pulled my pants down and enveloped my penis with her vagina. She didn't even ask my consent, which I did not give. On more than one occasion, I have had a woman, without asking, touch my penis through my clothes and even put her hand down my pants. I remember one incident now in which, while confined in a car where I could not easily escape, a woman started grabbing my legs and crotch and although I repeatedly and seriously protested, she did not stop. Multiple times a woman has grabbed my hand and forcibly moved it to her breasts, buttocks, and crotch, without seeking consent. More than one woman has sat down on my lap without asking permission. Numerous times women at bars have kissed me without asking permission. When people talk about a Rape Culture, I guess this is what they mean. Should I seek counselling?
__--__ 13y ago
"I thought this was obvious but I have already read all the comments in this thread and all the "context" the excusers are providing. If you think pointing me to that again is refuting my points, then you didn't understand what I wrote." There's a difference between understanding and agreeing. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your flawed, poorly thought out emotion based opinion doesn't mean they don't understand where it comes from. You're doing what so many people accuse conservative christians of doing - you're trying to silence a dissenting opinion because it makes you feel bad. That makes you an authoritarian of the worst sort; the kind that would gladly burn any book you find offensive.
malandrew 13y ago
"all the "context" the excusers are providing." To call everyone participating in civil discourse in this thread as merely "the excusers" is an admission of dogmatism, regardless of your statement of "having already read of all the comments in this thread". The discussion does not end because you say it ends with your comment as the last word on the matter. dogmatism - "the tendency to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true, without consideration of evidence or opinion of others"
riggins 13y ago
this reminds me of this chris rock skit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIv4phFcAAs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIv4phFcAAs
dwb 13y ago
Very well articulated. Thank $deity this is the top comment. I was about to turn away from HN in disgust. Agreed with every word.

by ebbv 13y ago

Metrop0218 13y ago

"it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours." Amen brother.

Cushman 13y ago
Just to be clear, because this is something misogynists like to pick on, both matter. The point of this is that you can't assume their consent just because you do. Of course, men who don't have experience with not having the power to consent struggle with this idea.
- angersock 13y ago
  Well put.
- tomp 13y ago
  Why do you have to disgrace yourself by using the word "misogynist"?
tomp 13y ago
That's true, but if she lacks consent, she should also voice it/make it clear at some point (disregarding obviously illegal power-imbalanced situations such as student/teacher, boss/worker, ...). Someone shouldn't be charged with rape just because their partner, after passionately and vigorously fucking the whole night, says she actually didn't want to the whole time.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Anderkent 13y ago

> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." That quote was never given as 'taking the first step'. It was given as "how to begin when you're finally alone in the bedroom with mutual consent for sex". That is obvious even after only reading the one part of his 'guide' that includes this quote.

throwaway4004 13y ago

You haven't read the material, you took a quote out of context. You don't know what you are talking about. Congrats on being married and 34????

garethadams 13y ago

It's a good job the "pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it" advice comes in the section of things you do after you're hundreds of moves down the line and you're alone in an intimate setting with a girl, after a number of dates then. The counter-article writer doesn't make clear that he's picked quotes from all over the guide, they aren't all "the first thing you should do" quotes

scarmig 13y ago
”5) Get CLOSE to her, damn it! To quote Rob Judge, “Personal space is for pussies.” I already told you that the most successful seducers are those who can’t keep their hands off of women. Well you’re not gonna be able to do that if you aren’t in close! ” “All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye contact, and were shameless in their physicality. Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That’s hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically.” “Decide that you’re going to sit in a position where you can rub her leg and back. Physically pick her up and sit her on your lap. Don’t ask for permission. Be dominant. Force her to rebuff your advances.” I really can't believe I'm getting into this argument when a much more interesting discussion is whether platforms have a responsibility to be open to all comers, but alas. You boys need a lesson in basic empathy. Imagine you're in a bar, and a super built gay guy reeking of booze comes up to you and sits uncomfortably close to you. His face is inches away from yours but as you try to pull away he scoots himself forward. His hand brushes lightly on yours. After a couple minutes of ignoring your obvious lack of interest he places his hand on your inner thigh, which you brush away and tell him he's being a creep, and walk away to a different area. But he KNOWS that even as you reject his advances you're really getting turned on, that you're aroused physically and psychologically. So he follows you, sits next to you, and picks you up and puts you on his lap. Now, don't skip that scenario: I want you to stop and think about it in detail. How would it make you feel? Do you feel turned on? Do you feel violated?
- Helianthus 13y ago
  >You boys need a lesson in basic empathy. Don't talk down to me. >Now, don't skip that scenario: I want you to stop and think about it in detail. How would it make you feel? Do you feel turned on? Do you feel violated? I take control of the situation by removing myself from the situation or making a scene. And I get over it. Look, I'm queer and I'm actually pretty sympathetic to the anti-seddit et al crowd. But the notion that I'm supposed to care about every person's feelings around me is nonsensical. It's exactly the kind of sentiment that you're violating by lecturing your audience. You're _deliberately_ provoking an uncomfortable reaction and prioritizing your own emotions above those of others. And I'm going to tell you to shove off, and get over it. This isn't about rape, the violent action and definable crime. It's about communication in a social space. And you can't communicate if you can't aggress, as you have _just demonstrated_.

kristofferR 13y ago

You do realize that you're saying exactly the same thing about consent that the book is, right? The misquoted parts is from the chapter about when you're already in a relationship, and ready to get physical.

ivanca 13y ago
Correct; this is yet another reaction started by radical feminists and followed by naive no-time-to-read-if-true followers; (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2KPeMcYsuc)
dwb 13y ago
The concept of consent does not vanish when you're in a relationship, and if you need a guide – especially one that advocates being dominant – then heaven help you.

shawabawa3 13y ago

> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that aren't sexual assault that you could do before resorting to that. Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years? In many contexts it would be sexual assault, but in many it wouldn't be. I think you're just assuming it's sexual assault because you don't like the idea of a book that teaches people how to "pick up women" FYI, the context behind that sentence is: > offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around

Metrop0218 13y ago
"Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years?" It is if she says it is. That's the whole point, you don't decide, the circumstances don't decide, only she can decide.
- shawabawa3 13y ago
  And the book says "If she says no, stop immediately". My point was that I would hope I don't have to ask permission after 5 years without it being sexual assault, therefore whether that action is sexual assault is context dependent.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    Long term relationships are different from early dating, you have your own communication and boundaries with your long term partner that are really different than when you are first starting out. However, domestic rape is real and yes you can totally sexually assault your partner and you do not have automatic consent just because you've been in a relationship. That said, this book advocates doing physically violating things to all women you would date in a short term time period, which is the kind of thing a serial rapist does.
nkohari 13y ago
> Is it sexual assault if I do that to my girlfriend of 5 years? Do you need to read a how-to book in order to seduce your girlfriend of 5 years?

jgh 13y ago

Thank you for more eloquently describing my feelings about this thread than I could have. A fellow married HNer in his 30s.

cm2012 13y ago

First off, I'm also married and have never read a seduction book. However, I'd like to quote some other comments from this thread to refute you. > The thing that the commenters on social media are leaving out is that the advice was taken from a section in the guide offering advice on what to do AFTER a man has met a cute girl, gotten her phone number, gone on dates, spent time getting to know her, and now are alone behind closed doors fooling around. If "Don't wait for signs, make the first move" promotes sexual assault, then "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid was a song about rape. > And all seduction guides do is offer advise on how to do that, but somehow what is acceptable for every issue of Cosmo (and a fair number of mens magazines) isn't acceptable for a guide on kickstarter. Also, would all women who have seen the full story and context call it assault? Would they call it assault in real life? Probably not.

Cushman 13y ago
> Also, would all women who have seen the full story and context call it assault? Would they call it assault in real life? Probably not. The point of this exercise is to be proactive about not hurting people. "Would they call it assault?" is a question that should simply not be on the table. This isn't a difficult concept.
- tomp 13y ago
  Yes, because sensible people (men and women) wouldn't call a well-meaning, but miscalibrated and thus unwelcome kiss sexual assault.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    Survivors of sexual assault and rape may most certainly call an unwelcome kiss sexual assault and it may be a hugely triggering thing that causes a relapse. You don't get to decide what someone's boundaries are just because you want something from them.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago

angersock 13y ago

Have some context: http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe http://pastebin.com/zwHYzCZe Sincerely, A HNer who is ashamed of the lack of reading comprehension of this community right now.

jenius 13y ago
Woah, really big difference here. I wish this was up towards the top of the comments so people got both sides of the issue before pointing fingers.
- angersock 13y ago
  To be fair, it could just be some other random jerk on 'net writing something sympathetic. Without the source document, though, it's not really easy to say either way. I'm also not impressed with the author's writing in any event.
  - xtrumanx 13y ago
    > To be fair, it could just be some other random jerk on 'net writing something sympathetic. Nope. The author of the book who was promoting his project on reddit provided the linked the above pastebin text himself. [0] http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_...
- loumf 13y ago
  To my understanding the two sides of this issue are whether or not Kickstarter has the right to choose what is on their site. I say they do. I do not understand the position that they must allow any project even if they don't want to (as long as they comply with the law) The issue of whether this book is misogynist or not doesn't really matter. You can still buy it if you want or any other legal material you want to buy. Just not on Kickstarter. There are many stores that don't sell things I want to buy.
  - newnewnew 13y ago

knowaveragejoe 13y ago

Good lord, you need to look into the context of the cherry-picked quotes from the guide.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

WA 13y ago

Ask 100 women if they find it romantic to be kissed without being asked or if they want to be asked first. I'm pretty sure the answer is: being kissed, don't ask. The author writes on reddit: IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately and say this line: "No problem. I don't want you to do anything you aren't comfortable with." Memorize that line. It is your go-to when faced with resistance. Say it genuinely, without presumption. All master seducers are also masters at making women feel comfortable. You'll be no different. If a woman isn't comfortable, take a break and try again later. So I really don't see where this is assault by not asking first. Thing is, if you try to kiss her and she doesn't want it, she'll turn away and that's it.

king_jester 13y ago
This is such a load of shit. There are so many circumstances in which someone may feel powerless to say something or engage in a resistive act, or may be physically incapable of doing so that the time. Rapists use the justification of lack of "acceptable" resistive force all the time, there is no place for this kind of comment.
- tomp 13y ago
  There's a big difference between "resistive force" and saying no. Anyone can say no, at least in situations in which both partners are of equal power. In situations where one partner has greater power than the other, it's usually illegal for them to be intimate anyways (teacher/student, employer/employee). Also, if you, say, kiss someone without their explicit consent, I think it's pretty obvious when they are not kissing you back/want to stop (actually, I hope - never been in that situation, really, but at least I have lots of passionate kisses as a benchmark).
  - king_jester 13y ago
    1) Power imbalance exists in general between men and women, in favor of men 2) Rapists and society at large often blame rape victims for not resisting enough. Rapists do not have a problem with a lack of consent and relying on victims to stop their own assault is completely unacceptable. The kickstarter project in question advocated for physically violating actions to be undertaken by would-be assaulters and put the burden of stopping assault on victims and should this kind of thing should never be supported period.

rlt 13y ago

If I'm in a club and I pull my dick out and forcibly place a random woman's hand on it, then of course that's sexual assault. If I do the same thing in a bedroom with a woman who I've already been (consensually) fondling, is it?

BCM43 13y ago
If you do it without asking, then yes.
- rlt 13y ago
  Really? Have you explicitly ask for permission every at every step of physical escalation in every relationship you've ever been in? At some point there's implied consent to continue moving forward. If not, then I fear there are hundreds of millions of sexual assaults every day.
mamoswined 13y ago
I would personally very much not like that move. If we are fondling, it will get to the point where I'm touching the guy's dick without any sort of prodding on his part, unless he does something to turn me off like forcibly place my hand on his dick.

hacker789 13y ago

"Take your exposed penis, and thrust it into her vagina. Don't wait for her to put it in for you. Be dominant." That could be instructions for rape. Or it could be instructions for the kind of a sex that millions of straight couples have every day. It all depends on the quote's context, right? Right? So stop taking quotes out of context from the author. > If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours. Your language is intentionally misleading. What matters is the woman with whom you're interacting. Feminist internet commenters can neither give consent nor take it away. And the author is severely explicit about respecting consent. His quotes are being butchered.

angersock 13y ago
"Take your exposed penis, and thrust it into her vagina." wait wait wait that's what ive been doing wrong this whole time? and here i was thinking i was just sterile! EDIT: Really, folks? No sense of humor here sometimes, I swear. Not to worry--the NSA is keeping record of jokes for all posterity!
- driverdan 13y ago
  This isn't Reddit. Pointless humor posts are discouraged and downvoted.
  - angersock 13y ago
    Eh, it depends, honestly. HN shouldn't be srs bznz all the time.
jmduke 13y ago
Or it could be instructions for the kind of a sex that millions of straight couples have every day. It all depends on the quote's context, right? This is a book on seduction, not a book on long-term relationships. I'm not defending the OP, but don't be intentionally dense.
- 13y ago

pizza234 13y ago

The same women that scream "assault", are very likely to have taking the of a stranger, consensually, in their hand, at least once in their lives. What you naively don't know, is that in this field, the culture is very far from reality. Some ahem "people" would scream horror to things that they would secretly do. It's nothing new under the sun.

blocking_io 13y ago
Are you actually arguing that if a woman has touched a penis in her life before, she is consenting to touching all future penises? Either you mean that or your writing is appalling.

mindcrime 13y ago

If you read the writings of the Guide's author and do not recognize that it is misogynistic and advocating sexual assault, you have a problem. That problem is that you are mistaking sexual assault for "taking the first step." Seduction is not inherently misogynistic, even if some seducers are misogynists. And whether an action is "sexual assault" or not is heavily context dependent. Let me ask you this... every time you go to kiss your spouse, do you ask "May I kiss you" first? If not, then by the standard you are setting, you are assaulting them every time you initiate a kiss.

Samuel_Michon 13y ago

> You do not need to resort to pulling out your dick and forcibly placing the woman's hand on it in order to "make a move." There's literally hundreds of other things that aren't sexual assault that you could do before resorting to that. Context: this is part of the penultimate chapter, which is about what to do when you’ve gone on several dates with a woman and now you’re alone with her. Many women expect men to take the first step, the chapter explains how to interpret the signs and act on them. One of the first sentences of the chapter is: “IMPORTANT NOTE ON RESISTANCE: If at any point a girl wants you to stop, she will let you know. If she says "STOP," or "GET AWAY FROM ME," or shoves you away, you know she is not interested. It happens. Stop escalating immediately” The part about taking out your dick is after the sections about kissing, fondling and fingering. NOT taking out your dick at this point would be more curious. The chapter in question so you can judge for yourself: http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_game_part_7_physical_escalation_sex/ http://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1dvnem/above_the_... Now, I don‘t particularly like the tone of this guide and I don’t think it‘s very insightful or well-written, but it’s definitely not anything new or out of line. In the genre, I personally prefer the writings of David DeAngelo.

ownagefool 13y ago

While I agree with the gist of the post, I disagree with this part:- "If women are loudly saying "This is assault.", you need to take them at their word, because it is their judgment, it is their consent that matters. Not yours." We live in a world where not everyone is resonable. Anyone suggesting you forcibly put someones hand on your penis as a courting move is not resonable. However there are also many woman who are also not resonable and you shouldn't simply back them up just because they're woman. I also haven't read the book, so have no real opinion on it's content.

gregd 13y ago

And since nobody is mentioning this, women should be very afraid of the 800 or so individuals who purchased this vile piece of crap.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

aeorgnoieang 13y ago

There is no obvious fact of the matter about "exactly what consent is, and what women (as a whole, obviously it varies from individual to individual) see as acceptable, expected behavior". Your own words contradict themselves; should we research what women "as a whole" think or judge or should we research individual women? Should we consult you personally if there is any disagreement or conflict among the results of these two lines of research?

tomjen3 13y ago

I don't believe you have actually understood the arguments put forth against your position, even if you have read the comments, but please even if you disagree with us, don't go around and mindlessly brand us as evil (or "you have a problem"). It only needlessly devides and cheapens the discussion.

malandrew 13y ago

"Without that consent, it is assault." I hate to be contrarian, because by the standards in most cultural spaces in the US I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, but I've traveled enough to know that there are exceptions to the exceptions people are taking with this material when you take culture differences into account. The majority of women in the majority of cultural spaces we on HN frequent of are saying it is assault. In those spaces and for those women it is. However this is not a universal truth. I've lived abroad several times in different places and the behavior of women in certain culture actively promotes/encourages the behavior being promoted by this book. For example, I've lived in Rio de Janeiro (and several places in the US) and there in particular you are expected, by the women, to behave in the manner promoted by this book otherwise you simply won't meet women when going out to many night venues. Seriously, the nice guy approach will net you not one number in a nightclub/dance club in Rio, you actually have to "manhandle" women to enter into a conversation. I'm a decent looking guy and normally don't have too much difficulty meeting women, but when I was in Rio, my US-acceptable "passivity" relative to the culture norm in Rio, got me absolutely no where there. It was only when I forced myself to be physically assertive that women started responding well and flirting back and I started getting dates. With this in mind, I honestly would not be surprised if the backlash we are seeing here is indicative of a cultural echo chamber that finds this behavior reprehensible that is also ignorant of of the existance of cultural spaces in the US where this behavior is not only acceptable but welcomed by women, and that this guide is geared towards men who frequent those cultural spaces. Examples of cultural spaces in the US where this behavior is expected by women are probably the same spaces that the cast of Jersey Shore and their real life analogues frequent. Watch this video of interviews with people on a certain beach on the Jersey shore and try to tell me that these assertive "mating practices" are not only acceptable but welcome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5weU2olAl-E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5weU2olAl-E . What is unfortunate is that behavior that is acceptable in those spaces bleeds intquo the common cultural spaces where this is not acceptable behavior. Anyways, I'm neither defending nor supporting this kickstarter, but merely saying that a lot of the people on their high horse need to realize the relativism of culture and that some things that may be wildly offensive to many women may actually be encouraged by certain subsets of women in certain cultural spaces. With this in mind, public outcry and censorship of material you may find objectional can sometimes suppress culture and you need to be aware of when you may be doing so. I think Neil Gaiman's thoughts "Why defend freedom of icky speech" is particularly relevant here. http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-... I personally would prefer that this speech be protected even if I don't agree with it, but that Kickstarter require that the author write a chapter on the importance of being discriminatory in practicing this behavior in cultural spaces where it is not acceptable and helping them identify women that don't welcome these advances in those cultural spaces where they may be acceptable.

newslyhorrified 13y ago

>If you believe that's a reasonable "move" to make, then you not only have no imagination, but your judgment of what's acceptable behavior is way, way off. It doesn't matter if this is a woman who you're behind closed doors with for the first time, that's not a normal, acceptable "move". That kind of thing is for people already in an established, ongoing relationship with a solid foundation of consent. Reading these comments has absolutely horrified me. I just realized that I have been sexually assaulted dozens of times and even raped on multiple occasions. I was raped by a 17 year old girl when I was just 16 - and a virgin. She bought me alcohol, got me drunk, and while I was laying on my back on the couch, she got on top of me and without asking, pulled my pants down and enveloped my penis with her vagina. She didn't even ask my consent, which I did not give. On more than one occasion, I have had a woman, without asking, touch my penis through my clothes and even put her hand down my pants. I remember one incident now in which, while confined in a car where I could not easily escape, a woman started grabbing my legs and crotch and although I repeatedly and seriously protested, she did not stop. Multiple times a woman has grabbed my hand and forcibly moved it to her breasts, buttocks, and crotch, without seeking consent. More than one woman has sat down on my lap without asking permission. Numerous times women at bars have kissed me without asking permission. When people talk about a Rape Culture, I guess this is what they mean. Should I seek counselling?

__--__ 13y ago

"I thought this was obvious but I have already read all the comments in this thread and all the "context" the excusers are providing. If you think pointing me to that again is refuting my points, then you didn't understand what I wrote." There's a difference between understanding and agreeing. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your flawed, poorly thought out emotion based opinion doesn't mean they don't understand where it comes from. You're doing what so many people accuse conservative christians of doing - you're trying to silence a dissenting opinion because it makes you feel bad. That makes you an authoritarian of the worst sort; the kind that would gladly burn any book you find offensive.

malandrew 13y ago

"all the "context" the excusers are providing." To call everyone participating in civil discourse in this thread as merely "the excusers" is an admission of dogmatism, regardless of your statement of "having already read of all the comments in this thread". The discussion does not end because you say it ends with your comment as the last word on the matter. dogmatism - "the tendency to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true, without consideration of evidence or opinion of others"

riggins 13y ago

this reminds me of this chris rock skit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIv4phFcAAs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIv4phFcAAs

dwb 13y ago

Very well articulated. Thank $deity this is the top comment. I was about to turn away from HN in disgust. Agreed with every word.