13 ms·

Battery Swap [video]

289 points by chaz 13y ago

joshdance 13y ago
Cool demo of the technology. Cool technology. But many if not most of electric car owners will never use it. They only travel to a from work, around town, into the city. Road trips are few and far in between. It is nice to know you CAN, not that you will.
- notjustanymike 13y ago
  "...nice to know you can" is exactly the point. You're right about day to day use; what this does is calm the range anxiety.
artificialidiot 13y ago
Nice demo. Can someone more knowledgeable compare the range of that Audi with two Teslas there combined at full juice?
- codfrantic 13y ago
  Not entirely sure which Audi that is. Lets assume: http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-quattro http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-quattro 90 liters at 9.3 km/liter = 837 km. Compared to Tesla's claimed 426 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S)
blackdogie 13y ago
I would like to know is there a capacity for the number of battery replacements they system can do ? I guess they recharge your battery and pass it on to the next person when it's fully charged. How do they insure battery quality for the replacements. Still a F'ing awesome demo.
- calinet6 13y ago
  This is the key reason you'd want to do this in the first place. It not only solves the problem of quickly charging the battery, it solves the problem of battery quality over time! The mere fact that you have batteries being swapped in and out of cars means you can systematically track battery health and refurbish batteries that are getting low, without ever having to bother the customer or affect the driveability of the car. The $40 (or so) battery swap fee is not for the electricity or the infrastructure, it is an insurance payment on the battery itself. You're paying for the collective maintenance of all Tesla batteries, and in turn ensuring the health and ease of your own. The last remaining argument against electric has always been the charge time, and "oh, but the battery costs $15,000 when it finally dies out"—I always knew a system of battery swap was the answer to basically everything, and I thought Tesla was doing it wrong by coming out with a fixed-battery car. Turns out I was wrong. They're doing everything exactly right.
  - lnanek2 13y ago
    Agreed. I never could have bought an electric knowing how batteries die. This eliminates that problem. Now if only my MacBook had battery swap capability...
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    So, $40 times 375 == $15000. That, what, 37500 miles? Sounds worse, not better.
    - calinet6 13y ago
      You're going on long trips every single mile? Otherwise you're charging it at home, at work, or using a supercharger while you eat lunch. You may only swap the batt 10 times or less in those 37,500 miles. And you still get all the battery-quality advantages.
      - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
        You've figured it wrong. After 37500 miles of long-distance driving, you have paid as much as a battery pack. Do you do less than that many long-distance miles in a normal car lifetime?
visakanv 13y ago
Can't wait to see Tesla grow and change the way we think about automobiles, at a species level.
- mtgx 13y ago
  Elon thinks most cars in production will be all-electric by 2030. I think that's achievable.
  - quackerhacker 13y ago
    I really hope that by 2030, we are utilizing Graphite Super capacitors....with everything I remember reading, it sounds like a miracle material.
    - twism 13y ago
      I think wireless charging built into parking spots or even long stretches of highways (charging while driving) would be a lot cooler.
      - quackerhacker 13y ago
        Does sound great, and reminds me alot about the predictions in Popular Mechanics. Unfortunately, the greatest hindrance when it comes to great innovation and progress (that even Tesla is facing in other states) is politics. However, I'm long on Tesla and I don't doubt Elon Musk for a second. He has electrical engineers (Tesla), computer technicians (Paypal...evident in Tesla's software), ..... and something that I can't believe is in his network.... rocket scientist (Space X...remember the saying "it's not rocket science," implies difficulty). To be as successful as he is, I'm sure he has political backing, it's just unfortunate that in politics, the basis is big bank takes little bank.
  - kaushikt 13y ago
    Well, now i certainly think its achievable.
kryten 13y ago
Considering human nature first, and the assumption that these battery swap sites will probably be unattended, I wonder how long before someone will work out how to steal those batteries?
- phreeza 13y ago
  About as easy as stealing gas from a gas station. Slightly higher payoff, but still I don't see that as a huge problem, especially as the batteries probably all have serial numbers.
  - Shivetya 13y ago
    given their size there is more than enough room to put any amount of tracking gear you want into these packs. In fact I would be surprised if they haven't done that. Why shouldn't the pack phone home? Why wait for drop off or exchange to report how it operates? If anything a black box system in one of these packs could provide a wealth of immediate information about operating characteristics that would benefit Tesla and battery manufacturers. It could all be done fully protecting the drivers privacy.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      How would they power the tracking equipm... oh wait.
- noir_lord 13y ago
  First why would you make the battery sites unattended anymore than the average petrol (gas) station is unattended? (particularly in the near term where these are essentially prototypes). Secondly here in the UK we have fully automated petrol stations and they have a low theft rate, high quality CCTV plus the need to put in a credit/debit card before it'll start pumping makes sure of that. There are other issues with this technology but theft I can't see becoming a major one.
  - arethuza 13y ago
nexneo 13y ago
"Faster or Free". Nice!
Swizec 13y ago
To me, the most surprising part is: Holy fuck, Audi's have huge petrol tanks! I usually fill up my reasonably priced car in like a minute or so and it gets a range of some 700 kilometers on a ~40 liter gas tank. 5 minutes for a petrol stop? That's insane.
- lnanek2 13y ago
  Seemed normal to me. I think my wife's BMW SUV thingie fits like 90 liters.
  - Swizec 13y ago
    At 10 gallons per minute, that's still just 2 minutes pumping time. (23 gallons) Edit: I checked again, he pumps for 2.5 minutes and gets exactly 23 gallons. So I guess the pump isn't as fast as Elon says on stage. But it still surprised me because, well, that's about twice as long as what I'm used to :)
    - lnanek2 13y ago
      Did you watch the video? Not all of the time at the gas station is spent pumping.
    - calinet6 13y ago
      This is a ridiculous discussion. It takes about 3-5 minutes to fill up a large-tank performance car, similar in features and trim to the Model S. It takes about 2-4 minutes to fill up a smaller car. It takes less than 2 minutes to "fill up" a Model S. It takes about 10 minutes if you also use the restroom. Are we going to start factoring that into the comparison? If not, I'm out.
      - Swizec 13y ago
        Well it does seem that most of the time saved when filling up the Model S comes from not having to get out of the car in the first place. And I guess the credit card gets used from within the car?
pbreit 13y ago
Im assuming this will work on all the Model S's that have already been produced? Was that mentioned?
- calinet6 13y ago
  Everything seems to indicate that this is in reference to all Model S's.
- supersystem 13y ago
  "Battery pack swap works with all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was always there." https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794
quackerhacker 13y ago
I think the greatest thing to take out of the presentation is... 1. The Tesla driver does NOT need to get out of the car (screw rain and bugs). 2. It IS a reasonable time (no need to sit in a diner and wait) 3. The mileage limitation is becoming less limiting (no different than making sure a long trip has a gas station on the way).
- lttlrck 13y ago
  Still need to get out to clean the windshield. Whats the big deal with getting out anyway?
  - quackerhacker 13y ago
    I only brought that up since here where I'm at in NorCal, there were tons of bugs when I filed my tank recently. Also if you have kids in the car, it's convenient, it's like asking why are there drive thru's at restaurants, car washes, and atm machines. Not sure that #1 applies to everyone...I remember on a road trip, in Oregon it's against the law for me to fill my OWN tank. EDIT: Added wife's 2 cents
    - carbocation 13y ago
      I actively avoid running low on fuel in New Jersey (compulsory full-service stations). I don't mind getting out of my car to get gas; the station attendant is doing nothing of value for me. I'm neither done faster not is the fuel in some way better than if I filled the car myself. In contrast, I do see the value in having a battery exchange (it's something they can do better for me than I could do myself). In that case, not getting out of the car is still essentialy a non-factor for me, but it does end up being a tiny perk.
      - mkopinsky 13y ago
        Living in NYC, I actively aim to run low on fuel in New Jersey so I can save $.50 a gallon.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
I saw it and wondered "what about dirt"? Dust, gravel, spilled oil, the stray coke can. Rain (yes it does sometimes rain in California). This is a fine stage demo, but really? We're talking enormous sealed electric bombs, swapped out by automated wrench and jack platforms, then a subterranean battery-storage-and-recharge system. The bigger technology than 'doing it at all' is 'keeping it working under environmental conditions'. Any info about that?
- calinet6 13y ago
  Please, you think they haven't thought of those problems? I'm sure it's a sealed system designed for real-world use. Otherwise why would they even create it? You could say the same about the car itself, but that appears to work just fine in the elements.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Generally, doing open-heart surgery on a car requires a clean environment, a careful mechanic, and lots of attention to detail. A subterranean automated wrench platform is a whole 'nother thing.
    - forrestthewoods 13y ago
      There are many words I'd use to describe an auto-shop. Clean is not among them.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        A good shop is clean. Not hospital room clean, not eat-off-the-floor clean, but clean. Floors swept and rinsed, fluids captured in drain pains, etc.
        chockablock 13y ago
        This changing station could well be inside such a tidy and enclosed area at the Tesla Station.
swalsh 13y ago
Between cars sexier than swimsuit models, and owning all the infrastructure to support them Tesla has a real potential to be a giant company. I don't usually buy individual stocks, but Tesla keeps looking more lucrative in the long term. If he can survive in the short term, there's a great future.
- leephillips 13y ago
  I have little doubt. I live in Virginia, one of the states whose government (or whose county governments) has been conspiring with a cartel of car dealers to try to forbid Tesla from selling their cars. Something happened, because I was in a mall yesterday and suddenly found myself next to a Tesla store. Those cars are stunning in person, inside and out. It was low key, like an Apple store. I don't usually get excited about cars and things, but if I had had $86,000 in my pocket I would have bought one. There was an emotional attraction that was very surprising. It felt like I was looking at a better future.
  - leephillips 13y ago
    This article [0] explains it: what I saw was a showroom; actual purchase must be completed over the internet. [0] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324049504578541902814606098.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732404950457854...
btucker 13y ago
The swap will cost between $60 & $80[1]. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUSBRE95K07H20130621 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUS...
- a-priori 13y ago
  The cost is fine, about what it costs to fill a gas tank, give or take. But what about this: "Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack." That seems... inconvenient.
  - artursapek 13y ago
    That answers the one question I had watching that video: does this mean we just freely circulate battery packs with varying amounts of usage?
    - calinet6 13y ago
      Ideally the system would be extremely smart: not just freely circulating anything, but tracking the health of each and every battery, doing automated maintenance as much as possible, and circulating certain batteries out for refurb if they get too low. It should be like battery insurance: you'd just never have to worry about it, and there would be an extremely smart system ensuring the health of every Tesla battery on the road. "Should" being the key word here... but maybe that's the plan, hard to say.
      - rattray 13y ago
        Paying the difference between the two packs seems like it is that insurance, you just have to pay for it. Of course, we don't know what that difference is going to be so, so it's hard to say if it's a fair price at all...
  - calinet6 13y ago
    Oooh... that's not good. I envisioned it as an insurance-like system: you pay for battery swaps, which cost X amount, which goes toward the collective maintenance of all the batteries in the whole system. Thus you don't have to worry about which battery is yours, or the health of your battery, or anything about the battery anymore. That simplicity alone makes it worth the price of admission. If they're worried about specific batteries and specific costs and specific maintenance tied to you, then I think they system has too many complex details to make it an easy snap decision. UX won't be as good, not as smooth, and it'll deter people from using the service... I think they need to go the collective route to make this work.
prawks 13y ago
Better Place has been trying to do the same in Israel and Denmark, and is looking to expand into the US eventually: http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-car-battery-just-change-it http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-...
- nicolasp 13y ago
  Better Place actually filed for bankruptcy about a month ago: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/another-clean-tech-startup-goes-down-better-place-is-bankrupt/276257/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/anothe...
  - prawks 13y ago
    Oops, somehow I missed that. Thanks.
lttlrck 13y ago
That was very long winded given that it was promoting speed. Would an A8 Audi owner pay more to fill up faster? Nope. Because it doesn't actually take very long.
- codeulike 13y ago
  The point is, an electrical charge can take 30 minutes or so, not that a petrol stop takes too long.
joeblau 13y ago
I never actually realized how much time it took to fill up a tank of gas! The next step is to get this working via a Knight Rider style truck so you never even have to stop moving.
- marshray 13y ago
  Well you wouldn't need to pull into the truck to recharge, just dock with some electrodes on the back. Other cars could daisy-chain off of you. Or even without a truck, if you weren't going as far, you could sell some of your energy to other cars behind you. WCPGW?
chiph 13y ago
Instead of the requirement for the owners to return & pick up their battery, why not charge $750 yearly for the privilege of swap and forget? If you swap, it's the luck of the draw whether you get a brand-new battery or a used one. But Tesla could use that money to cycle in new batteries to the pool, so your chances of getting a brand-new battery remain decent.
- timdorr 13y ago
  There is no requirement to return the swapped battery. If you want to keep the new one you can. It works exactly the way you describe.
Flemlord 13y ago
Does anybody know if you can swap a 60kw battery for the 85kw?
brosephius 13y ago
US Cellular has a program where you can bring your phone to any retail store and swap out your battery for a charged one. No need to return to pick up your original. Granted, that's for a $10 battery, but why wouldn't this work for Tesla? Charging an extra fee is fine too - it's the price for convenience, vs waiting for a full charge of your own battery pack.
- timdorr 13y ago
  Because its a $10 battery and people don't often take advantage of the deal, US Cellular is able to easily eat the degradation cost. But on a $40k battery pack, where swapping happens potentially far more often, that cost is too significant to ignore. Hence they're charging a reasonable amount for it.
  - joezydeco 13y ago
    That $10 battery costs US Cellular $2. A cheap price for some positive P/R and customer retention.
rattray 13y ago
Better Place, which offered batter swapping for electric cars, announced bankruptcy about a month ago. I wonder if there's any connection? Assuaging fears that battery swapping will no longer be available? Tesla can now use technology that had been patented by Better Place?
- umsm 13y ago
  It appears like they were communicating together 4 years ago to allow for swap-style batteries: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12374 http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12...
EEGuy 13y ago
In terms of energy delivery: ( 85 KWhr / 90 sec) * ( 3600 sec / hr ) = 3400 KW = 3.4 MW 3.4 megawatts, not bad.
alainbryden 13y ago
I wonder if anyone has considered buying a Tesla (free recharges for life), driving home every day and finding a way to discharge the battery back into the grid through their meter to negate their home electricity bill.
- gmaslov 13y ago
  This idea might be up there with saving on your electric bill by installing little turbines on all your water faucets.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    For awhile you could buy a natural gas burning Stirling engine that would provide electricity while heating your water with the waste heat.
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    The idea here is that you "bring free energy home" from Tesla's solar-panel-powered stations (leaving you car battery empty), not that you get to use it twice.
- schainks 13y ago
  utilities have looked into this "smart grid" application for a while. The bigger issue, I think, is what's the likelihood that your house/grid will drain your car battery before it can be recharged enough for you to be able to drive somewhere? And you just _know_ someone is going to complain about "my car battery was drained without my permission! privacy rights! privacy rights!"
- wmf 13y ago
  That's why the free superchargers are not located along your commute.
loceng 13y ago
Good music at the end of the video.
coherentpony 13y ago
Man, Tesla are just incredible. Some day I'll be able to afford a Model S and do my part in getting us less dependent on oil.
joshmlewis 13y ago
On a side note, did you see all the people in the audience taking pictures/videos? This really bugs me nowadays. I used to be like that but then I realize a.) I'll probably never watch this and b.) they are more than likely already capturing this moment and it is guaranteed to be better than my crappy handheld phone video. Same goes for concerts and other events.
andyjsong 13y ago
Does anyone else want to see a closer look of the battery getting swapped out? I don't think it was necessary to see a dude filling up his car with gas.
btbuildem 13y ago
What I especially liked about this demo is how it antiquated, dated, obsolete and generally uncool the current refuelling process appears in comparison.
robomartin 13y ago
As an engineer I would have preferred to have seen a shot from under the car showing the actual process. It's unfortunate that they chose to record it from a hundred feet away. As for the reality of this swap deal. Well, it sounds like a logistical pain in the ass. You are required to come back and get your original battery pack back or pay the difference in cost for the new one. Option number two could be in the thousands of dollars. That means your trip logistics now have to adjust to the location of that particular station or else. Hypothetically, say you travel from LA to SFO and stay there for work for three months. Will they hold your original battery pack or will it be used to swap into other cars? Your battery could end-up in Nebraska. Then what? How many stations will have this tech and when? Are they, perhaps, going to charge and store your pack and then somehow ship it to a station near you for reclaiming? If that's the case that would make for a very expensive power-up. At the end of the day I fail to see how this might convince skeptics unless they suck at math and logical reasoning. Sadly this is very much like their creative financing scheme. Cool tech but it would have been nice to have gotten far more detail on all points. Don't get me wrong. I really like Tesla. I am waiting for the SUV and will more than likely buy two of them.
- lotu 13y ago
  Well if we assume you only do battery swaps then the cost of your "old" battery would be almost the cost of a new battery so that case you would be paying only small amount for each battery swap. The reason they do this would be because otherwise someone with a 3 year old battery that needs replacement would be able to get a new battery effectively for free.
  - arthulia 13y ago
    If you swapped batteries for a recurring subscription fee, it would help to offset the cost of batteries wearing out. Battery replacement is a huge problem with electric and hybrid vehicles right now. The cost of replacing the battery is similar to the cost of replacing a combustion engine, yet the battery will wear out considerably sooner. A good system like this could remove that factor entirely. A company called BetterPlace[0] has/had plans to do this. [0] http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stations http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stati...
stcredzero 13y ago
From this, we might infer that the upcoming lower priced models either use the same battery pack or will not have the option to swap packs. Or, maybe the system is designed to accomodate packs of different lengths. The 1st and 3rd seem the most likely.
spullara 13y ago
The amazing part is that people without a Tesla think that the battery swap stuff is anymore than just window dressing. You charge the car at night and it is full every morning. The times you would use this are vanishingly few. Even on those occasions, unless I am in a huge, huge hurry, I would still take the supercharger over this option.

289 points by chaz 13y ago

Cool demo of the technology. Cool technology. But many if not most of electric car owners will never use it. They only travel to a from work, around town, into the city. Road trips are few and far in between. It is nice to know you CAN, not that you will.

notjustanymike 13y ago
"...nice to know you can" is exactly the point. You're right about day to day use; what this does is calm the range anxiety.

artificialidiot 13y ago

Nice demo. Can someone more knowledgeable compare the range of that Audi with two Teslas there combined at full juice?

codfrantic 13y ago
Not entirely sure which Audi that is. Lets assume: http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-quattro http://www.autoweek.nl/auto/58469/audi-a8-l-30-tfsi-quattro 90 liters at 9.3 km/liter = 837 km. Compared to Tesla's claimed 426 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S)

blackdogie 13y ago

I would like to know is there a capacity for the number of battery replacements they system can do ? I guess they recharge your battery and pass it on to the next person when it's fully charged. How do they insure battery quality for the replacements. Still a F'ing awesome demo.

calinet6 13y ago
This is the key reason you'd want to do this in the first place. It not only solves the problem of quickly charging the battery, it solves the problem of battery quality over time! The mere fact that you have batteries being swapped in and out of cars means you can systematically track battery health and refurbish batteries that are getting low, without ever having to bother the customer or affect the driveability of the car. The $40 (or so) battery swap fee is not for the electricity or the infrastructure, it is an insurance payment on the battery itself. You're paying for the collective maintenance of all Tesla batteries, and in turn ensuring the health and ease of your own. The last remaining argument against electric has always been the charge time, and "oh, but the battery costs $15,000 when it finally dies out"—I always knew a system of battery swap was the answer to basically everything, and I thought Tesla was doing it wrong by coming out with a fixed-battery car. Turns out I was wrong. They're doing everything exactly right.
- lnanek2 13y ago
  Agreed. I never could have bought an electric knowing how batteries die. This eliminates that problem. Now if only my MacBook had battery swap capability...
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  So, $40 times 375 == $15000. That, what, 37500 miles? Sounds worse, not better.
  - calinet6 13y ago
    You're going on long trips every single mile? Otherwise you're charging it at home, at work, or using a supercharger while you eat lunch. You may only swap the batt 10 times or less in those 37,500 miles. And you still get all the battery-quality advantages.
    - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
      You've figured it wrong. After 37500 miles of long-distance driving, you have paid as much as a battery pack. Do you do less than that many long-distance miles in a normal car lifetime?

visakanv 13y ago

Can't wait to see Tesla grow and change the way we think about automobiles, at a species level.

mtgx 13y ago
Elon thinks most cars in production will be all-electric by 2030. I think that's achievable.
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  I really hope that by 2030, we are utilizing Graphite Super capacitors....with everything I remember reading, it sounds like a miracle material.
  - twism 13y ago
    I think wireless charging built into parking spots or even long stretches of highways (charging while driving) would be a lot cooler.
    - quackerhacker 13y ago
      Does sound great, and reminds me alot about the predictions in Popular Mechanics. Unfortunately, the greatest hindrance when it comes to great innovation and progress (that even Tesla is facing in other states) is politics. However, I'm long on Tesla and I don't doubt Elon Musk for a second. He has electrical engineers (Tesla), computer technicians (Paypal...evident in Tesla's software), ..... and something that I can't believe is in his network.... rocket scientist (Space X...remember the saying "it's not rocket science," implies difficulty). To be as successful as he is, I'm sure he has political backing, it's just unfortunate that in politics, the basis is big bank takes little bank.
- kaushikt 13y ago
  Well, now i certainly think its achievable.

kryten 13y ago

Considering human nature first, and the assumption that these battery swap sites will probably be unattended, I wonder how long before someone will work out how to steal those batteries?

phreeza 13y ago
About as easy as stealing gas from a gas station. Slightly higher payoff, but still I don't see that as a huge problem, especially as the batteries probably all have serial numbers.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  given their size there is more than enough room to put any amount of tracking gear you want into these packs. In fact I would be surprised if they haven't done that. Why shouldn't the pack phone home? Why wait for drop off or exchange to report how it operates? If anything a black box system in one of these packs could provide a wealth of immediate information about operating characteristics that would benefit Tesla and battery manufacturers. It could all be done fully protecting the drivers privacy.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    How would they power the tracking equipm... oh wait.
noir_lord 13y ago
First why would you make the battery sites unattended anymore than the average petrol (gas) station is unattended? (particularly in the near term where these are essentially prototypes). Secondly here in the UK we have fully automated petrol stations and they have a low theft rate, high quality CCTV plus the need to put in a credit/debit card before it'll start pumping makes sure of that. There are other issues with this technology but theft I can't see becoming a major one.
- arethuza 13y ago

nexneo 13y ago

"Faster or Free". Nice!

Swizec 13y ago

To me, the most surprising part is: Holy fuck, Audi's have huge petrol tanks! I usually fill up my reasonably priced car in like a minute or so and it gets a range of some 700 kilometers on a ~40 liter gas tank. 5 minutes for a petrol stop? That's insane.

lnanek2 13y ago
Seemed normal to me. I think my wife's BMW SUV thingie fits like 90 liters.
- Swizec 13y ago
  At 10 gallons per minute, that's still just 2 minutes pumping time. (23 gallons) Edit: I checked again, he pumps for 2.5 minutes and gets exactly 23 gallons. So I guess the pump isn't as fast as Elon says on stage. But it still surprised me because, well, that's about twice as long as what I'm used to :)
  - lnanek2 13y ago
    Did you watch the video? Not all of the time at the gas station is spent pumping.
  - calinet6 13y ago
    This is a ridiculous discussion. It takes about 3-5 minutes to fill up a large-tank performance car, similar in features and trim to the Model S. It takes about 2-4 minutes to fill up a smaller car. It takes less than 2 minutes to "fill up" a Model S. It takes about 10 minutes if you also use the restroom. Are we going to start factoring that into the comparison? If not, I'm out.
    - Swizec 13y ago
      Well it does seem that most of the time saved when filling up the Model S comes from not having to get out of the car in the first place. And I guess the credit card gets used from within the car?

pbreit 13y ago

Im assuming this will work on all the Model S's that have already been produced? Was that mentioned?

calinet6 13y ago
Everything seems to indicate that this is in reference to all Model S's.
supersystem 13y ago
"Battery pack swap works with all Tesla Model S cars, past and present. It was always there." https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/347082201596321794

quackerhacker 13y ago

I think the greatest thing to take out of the presentation is... 1. The Tesla driver does NOT need to get out of the car (screw rain and bugs). 2. It IS a reasonable time (no need to sit in a diner and wait) 3. The mileage limitation is becoming less limiting (no different than making sure a long trip has a gas station on the way).

lttlrck 13y ago
Still need to get out to clean the windshield. Whats the big deal with getting out anyway?
- quackerhacker 13y ago
  I only brought that up since here where I'm at in NorCal, there were tons of bugs when I filed my tank recently. Also if you have kids in the car, it's convenient, it's like asking why are there drive thru's at restaurants, car washes, and atm machines. Not sure that #1 applies to everyone...I remember on a road trip, in Oregon it's against the law for me to fill my OWN tank. EDIT: Added wife's 2 cents
  - carbocation 13y ago
    I actively avoid running low on fuel in New Jersey (compulsory full-service stations). I don't mind getting out of my car to get gas; the station attendant is doing nothing of value for me. I'm neither done faster not is the fuel in some way better than if I filled the car myself. In contrast, I do see the value in having a battery exchange (it's something they can do better for me than I could do myself). In that case, not getting out of the car is still essentialy a non-factor for me, but it does end up being a tiny perk.
    - mkopinsky 13y ago
      Living in NYC, I actively aim to run low on fuel in New Jersey so I can save $.50 a gallon.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

I saw it and wondered "what about dirt"? Dust, gravel, spilled oil, the stray coke can. Rain (yes it does sometimes rain in California). This is a fine stage demo, but really? We're talking enormous sealed electric bombs, swapped out by automated wrench and jack platforms, then a subterranean battery-storage-and-recharge system. The bigger technology than 'doing it at all' is 'keeping it working under environmental conditions'. Any info about that?

calinet6 13y ago
Please, you think they haven't thought of those problems? I'm sure it's a sealed system designed for real-world use. Otherwise why would they even create it? You could say the same about the car itself, but that appears to work just fine in the elements.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Generally, doing open-heart surgery on a car requires a clean environment, a careful mechanic, and lots of attention to detail. A subterranean automated wrench platform is a whole 'nother thing.
  - forrestthewoods 13y ago
    There are many words I'd use to describe an auto-shop. Clean is not among them.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      A good shop is clean. Not hospital room clean, not eat-off-the-floor clean, but clean. Floors swept and rinsed, fluids captured in drain pains, etc.
      - chockablock 13y ago
        This changing station could well be inside such a tidy and enclosed area at the Tesla Station.

swalsh 13y ago

Between cars sexier than swimsuit models, and owning all the infrastructure to support them Tesla has a real potential to be a giant company. I don't usually buy individual stocks, but Tesla keeps looking more lucrative in the long term. If he can survive in the short term, there's a great future.

leephillips 13y ago
I have little doubt. I live in Virginia, one of the states whose government (or whose county governments) has been conspiring with a cartel of car dealers to try to forbid Tesla from selling their cars. Something happened, because I was in a mall yesterday and suddenly found myself next to a Tesla store. Those cars are stunning in person, inside and out. It was low key, like an Apple store. I don't usually get excited about cars and things, but if I had had $86,000 in my pocket I would have bought one. There was an emotional attraction that was very surprising. It felt like I was looking at a better future.
- leephillips 13y ago
  This article [0] explains it: what I saw was a showroom; actual purchase must be completed over the internet. [0] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324049504578541902814606098.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732404950457854...

btucker 13y ago

The swap will cost between $60 & $80[1]. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUSBRE95K07H20130621 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUS...

a-priori 13y ago
The cost is fine, about what it costs to fill a gas tank, give or take. But what about this: "Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack." That seems... inconvenient.
- artursapek 13y ago
  That answers the one question I had watching that video: does this mean we just freely circulate battery packs with varying amounts of usage?
  - calinet6 13y ago
    Ideally the system would be extremely smart: not just freely circulating anything, but tracking the health of each and every battery, doing automated maintenance as much as possible, and circulating certain batteries out for refurb if they get too low. It should be like battery insurance: you'd just never have to worry about it, and there would be an extremely smart system ensuring the health of every Tesla battery on the road. "Should" being the key word here... but maybe that's the plan, hard to say.
    - rattray 13y ago
      Paying the difference between the two packs seems like it is that insurance, you just have to pay for it. Of course, we don't know what that difference is going to be so, so it's hard to say if it's a fair price at all...
- calinet6 13y ago
  Oooh... that's not good. I envisioned it as an insurance-like system: you pay for battery swaps, which cost X amount, which goes toward the collective maintenance of all the batteries in the whole system. Thus you don't have to worry about which battery is yours, or the health of your battery, or anything about the battery anymore. That simplicity alone makes it worth the price of admission. If they're worried about specific batteries and specific costs and specific maintenance tied to you, then I think they system has too many complex details to make it an easy snap decision. UX won't be as good, not as smooth, and it'll deter people from using the service... I think they need to go the collective route to make this work.

prawks 13y ago

Better Place has been trying to do the same in Israel and Denmark, and is looking to expand into the US eventually: http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-car-battery-just-change-it http://www.wbur.org/npr/159355676/dont-charge-that-electric-...

nicolasp 13y ago
Better Place actually filed for bankruptcy about a month ago: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/another-clean-tech-startup-goes-down-better-place-is-bankrupt/276257/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/anothe...
- prawks 13y ago
  Oops, somehow I missed that. Thanks.

lttlrck 13y ago

That was very long winded given that it was promoting speed. Would an A8 Audi owner pay more to fill up faster? Nope. Because it doesn't actually take very long.

codeulike 13y ago
The point is, an electrical charge can take 30 minutes or so, not that a petrol stop takes too long.

joeblau 13y ago

I never actually realized how much time it took to fill up a tank of gas! The next step is to get this working via a Knight Rider style truck so you never even have to stop moving.

marshray 13y ago
Well you wouldn't need to pull into the truck to recharge, just dock with some electrodes on the back. Other cars could daisy-chain off of you. Or even without a truck, if you weren't going as far, you could sell some of your energy to other cars behind you. WCPGW?

chiph 13y ago

Instead of the requirement for the owners to return & pick up their battery, why not charge $750 yearly for the privilege of swap and forget? If you swap, it's the luck of the draw whether you get a brand-new battery or a used one. But Tesla could use that money to cycle in new batteries to the pool, so your chances of getting a brand-new battery remain decent.

timdorr 13y ago
There is no requirement to return the swapped battery. If you want to keep the new one you can. It works exactly the way you describe.

Flemlord 13y ago

Does anybody know if you can swap a 60kw battery for the 85kw?

brosephius 13y ago

US Cellular has a program where you can bring your phone to any retail store and swap out your battery for a charged one. No need to return to pick up your original. Granted, that's for a $10 battery, but why wouldn't this work for Tesla? Charging an extra fee is fine too - it's the price for convenience, vs waiting for a full charge of your own battery pack.

timdorr 13y ago
Because its a $10 battery and people don't often take advantage of the deal, US Cellular is able to easily eat the degradation cost. But on a $40k battery pack, where swapping happens potentially far more often, that cost is too significant to ignore. Hence they're charging a reasonable amount for it.
- joezydeco 13y ago
  That $10 battery costs US Cellular $2. A cheap price for some positive P/R and customer retention.

rattray 13y ago

Better Place, which offered batter swapping for electric cars, announced bankruptcy about a month ago. I wonder if there's any connection? Assuaging fears that battery swapping will no longer be available? Tesla can now use technology that had been patented by Better Place?

umsm 13y ago
It appears like they were communicating together 4 years ago to allow for swap-style batteries: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12374 http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=12...

EEGuy 13y ago

In terms of energy delivery: ( 85 KWhr / 90 sec) * ( 3600 sec / hr ) = 3400 KW = 3.4 MW 3.4 megawatts, not bad.

alainbryden 13y ago

I wonder if anyone has considered buying a Tesla (free recharges for life), driving home every day and finding a way to discharge the battery back into the grid through their meter to negate their home electricity bill.

gmaslov 13y ago
This idea might be up there with saving on your electric bill by installing little turbines on all your water faucets.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  For awhile you could buy a natural gas burning Stirling engine that would provide electricity while heating your water with the waste heat.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  The idea here is that you "bring free energy home" from Tesla's solar-panel-powered stations (leaving you car battery empty), not that you get to use it twice.
schainks 13y ago
utilities have looked into this "smart grid" application for a while. The bigger issue, I think, is what's the likelihood that your house/grid will drain your car battery before it can be recharged enough for you to be able to drive somewhere? And you just _know_ someone is going to complain about "my car battery was drained without my permission! privacy rights! privacy rights!"
wmf 13y ago
That's why the free superchargers are not located along your commute.

loceng 13y ago

Good music at the end of the video.

coherentpony 13y ago

Man, Tesla are just incredible. Some day I'll be able to afford a Model S and do my part in getting us less dependent on oil.

joshmlewis 13y ago

On a side note, did you see all the people in the audience taking pictures/videos? This really bugs me nowadays. I used to be like that but then I realize a.) I'll probably never watch this and b.) they are more than likely already capturing this moment and it is guaranteed to be better than my crappy handheld phone video. Same goes for concerts and other events.

andyjsong 13y ago

Does anyone else want to see a closer look of the battery getting swapped out? I don't think it was necessary to see a dude filling up his car with gas.

btbuildem 13y ago

What I especially liked about this demo is how it antiquated, dated, obsolete and generally uncool the current refuelling process appears in comparison.

robomartin 13y ago

As an engineer I would have preferred to have seen a shot from under the car showing the actual process. It's unfortunate that they chose to record it from a hundred feet away. As for the reality of this swap deal. Well, it sounds like a logistical pain in the ass. You are required to come back and get your original battery pack back or pay the difference in cost for the new one. Option number two could be in the thousands of dollars. That means your trip logistics now have to adjust to the location of that particular station or else. Hypothetically, say you travel from LA to SFO and stay there for work for three months. Will they hold your original battery pack or will it be used to swap into other cars? Your battery could end-up in Nebraska. Then what? How many stations will have this tech and when? Are they, perhaps, going to charge and store your pack and then somehow ship it to a station near you for reclaiming? If that's the case that would make for a very expensive power-up. At the end of the day I fail to see how this might convince skeptics unless they suck at math and logical reasoning. Sadly this is very much like their creative financing scheme. Cool tech but it would have been nice to have gotten far more detail on all points. Don't get me wrong. I really like Tesla. I am waiting for the SUV and will more than likely buy two of them.

lotu 13y ago
Well if we assume you only do battery swaps then the cost of your "old" battery would be almost the cost of a new battery so that case you would be paying only small amount for each battery swap. The reason they do this would be because otherwise someone with a 3 year old battery that needs replacement would be able to get a new battery effectively for free.
- arthulia 13y ago
  If you swapped batteries for a recurring subscription fee, it would help to offset the cost of batteries wearing out. Battery replacement is a huge problem with electric and hybrid vehicles right now. The cost of replacing the battery is similar to the cost of replacing a combustion engine, yet the battery will wear out considerably sooner. A good system like this could remove that factor entirely. A company called BetterPlace[0] has/had plans to do this. [0] http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stations http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/battery-switch-stati...

stcredzero 13y ago

From this, we might infer that the upcoming lower priced models either use the same battery pack or will not have the option to swap packs. Or, maybe the system is designed to accomodate packs of different lengths. The 1st and 3rd seem the most likely.

spullara 13y ago

The amazing part is that people without a Tesla think that the battery swap stuff is anymore than just window dressing. You charge the car at night and it is full every morning. The times you would use this are vanishingly few. Even on those occasions, unless I am in a huge, huge hurry, I would still take the supercharger over this option.