4 ms·

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I

by alan_cx 13y ago

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exaggeration, but used by people who see it going that way. They use such words to warn, but we all know those words do not really stand up objectively. So, what is the tipping point, what has to happen for such words to actually apply? Or is it merely a case of presentation? If society, superficially, doesn't look like old Nazi Germany, is that enough for a majority to be content, even if underling that is something deeply nasty?

adaml_623 13y ago
It's a good question but the story of the frog in the slowly heating pot of water comes to mind. At what temperature should the frog really get worried?
- xradionut 13y ago
  It's too late for the general population in the US. But there are very smart folks with means that have hedged their bets by having estates in multiple countries.
grey-area 13y ago
The Stasi were the secret police for Eastern Germany, nothing to do with the Nazis as far as I know. The surveillance undertaken by the Stasi wasn't really as extensive as (for example) collecting all phone records for the entire country, so in some ways the US has surpassed the Stasi in surveillance, while in others obviously it's nowhere near the same situation (e.g. in-person surveillance and recruiting ordinary citizens as spies), and in other areas it's similar - secret courts and sweeping warrants etc. I suppose the point of the comparison is to shock, and then perhaps point out that there are some areas in which the current situation is worse than it was in Eastern Germany.
- rmc 13y ago
  Given that communists and fascists have historically really really not liked each other, yes the secret police of communist East Germany, would not like each other. (In East Germany, the Berlin Wall was called the "Anti-Fascist Barrier", and Nazis imprisoned and banned the communist party)
zwieback 13y ago
For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.
- _ak 13y ago
  As they say in Germany, "Wer sich nicht bewegt, spürt seine Fesseln nicht." (who doesn't move doesn't feel his manacles)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    My dear, Have you noticed how those who move, move fast? And those who don’t, just stand still; motionless? Yes, you can go ahead and rant to me about how an object in motion stays in motion, and how an object at rest stays at rest. But, I think there’s more to this than physics. I think those in motion have seen something the others have not; their imprisonment. While those who do not move, do not notice their chains. Truly yours, Rosa Luxemburg
- adventured 13y ago
  Well then we better be extra vigilant in pushing back against this sort of thing: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects-indictment-of-teen-arrested-for-rap-lyrics-20130606 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects... Cases like that can be dangerous trial balloons.
- amirmc 13y ago
  > "For me it would be when people disappear..." You don't necessarily need to 'disappear' people when (with enough information) you can string together a bunch of charges such that a compliant judicial system will put them away for you. Even if there isn't a conviction, the process may be sufficient to destroy someone's life.
- GFischer 13y ago
jes 13y ago
You might wish to read "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.

by alan_cx 13y ago

adaml_623 13y ago

It's a good question but the story of the frog in the slowly heating pot of water comes to mind. At what temperature should the frog really get worried?

xradionut 13y ago
It's too late for the general population in the US. But there are very smart folks with means that have hedged their bets by having estates in multiple countries.

grey-area 13y ago

The Stasi were the secret police for Eastern Germany, nothing to do with the Nazis as far as I know. The surveillance undertaken by the Stasi wasn't really as extensive as (for example) collecting all phone records for the entire country, so in some ways the US has surpassed the Stasi in surveillance, while in others obviously it's nowhere near the same situation (e.g. in-person surveillance and recruiting ordinary citizens as spies), and in other areas it's similar - secret courts and sweeping warrants etc. I suppose the point of the comparison is to shock, and then perhaps point out that there are some areas in which the current situation is worse than it was in Eastern Germany.

rmc 13y ago
Given that communists and fascists have historically really really not liked each other, yes the secret police of communist East Germany, would not like each other. (In East Germany, the Berlin Wall was called the "Anti-Fascist Barrier", and Nazis imprisoned and banned the communist party)

zwieback 13y ago

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

_ak 13y ago
As they say in Germany, "Wer sich nicht bewegt, spürt seine Fesseln nicht." (who doesn't move doesn't feel his manacles)
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  My dear, Have you noticed how those who move, move fast? And those who don’t, just stand still; motionless? Yes, you can go ahead and rant to me about how an object in motion stays in motion, and how an object at rest stays at rest. But, I think there’s more to this than physics. I think those in motion have seen something the others have not; their imprisonment. While those who do not move, do not notice their chains. Truly yours, Rosa Luxemburg
adventured 13y ago
Well then we better be extra vigilant in pushing back against this sort of thing: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects-indictment-of-teen-arrested-for-rap-lyrics-20130606 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/grand-jury-rejects... Cases like that can be dangerous trial balloons.
amirmc 13y ago
> "For me it would be when people disappear..." You don't necessarily need to 'disappear' people when (with enough information) you can string together a bunch of charges such that a compliant judicial system will put them away for you. Even if there isn't a conviction, the process may be sufficient to destroy someone's life.
GFischer 13y ago

jes 13y ago

You might wish to read "The Ominous Parallels" by Leonard Peikoff.