12 ms·

1984, Hungarian Edition

64 points by yk 13y ago

morsch 13y ago
Overall, the development of politics in Hungary over the past few years has been disturbing. Right wing populists with fascist tendencies have been voted into power, large rallies of uniformed believers in the streets of Budapest, overt and unapologetic antisemitism, overt and violent threats against other minorities, pointless nationalist posturing towards neighbouring countries.
- friendly_chap 13y ago
  >> Right wing populists with fascist tendencies They are patriots. They are being called fascist because they want to stop the current practice of paying 2000$ for Roma families for raising children, while Hungarian families get 1/20 of that for the same task, all this while the average Hungarian works for 400$ a month. Don't believe everything what you see on TV. Go figure. A Hungarian
  - arkitaip 13y ago
    This is the most ridiculous framing of Hungary's problems with racism and extremism [1][2][3][4][5] I've read in a long time. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/hungary-right-political-abyss http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/hungary-... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/16/hungary-rule-law-under-threat http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/16/hungary-rule-law-under-th... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/10037188/Inside-the-far-Right-stronghold-where-Hungarian-Jews-fear-for-the-future.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/100... [5] http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id-moe/09566.pdf http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id-moe/09566.pdf
    - friendly_chap 13y ago
      What is your point exactly? I can call your post ridicolous and link 4-5 links too but I will still lack a point!
      - arkitaip 13y ago
        My point should be perfectly obvious: the people that you nauseating describe as patriots are nothing more than racists, thugs and nationalists. I've provided several different independent and credible sources to support this claim - can you do the same?
      - phaer 13y ago
        Those are quite reliable sources, while you are just one person who seem to sympathize with Jobbik. If you post 5 links to (kind of) neutral sources, i'll gladly read them.
      - friendly_chap 13y ago
        To the two sibling comments: In those links, please tell me, what proves that the Jobbik is a fascist party? Also, I am not a person sympathizing with Jobbik, I am first and foremost a Hungarian, who lives here. If people are murdering my family, no amount of your links will prove that they are alive and well. It's that simple.
        icebraining 13y ago
        If people are murdering my family, no amount of your links will prove that they are alive and well. It's that simple. But you were the one claiming they aren't anti-semitic, so why should we believe it in face of the reported incidents?
        friendly_chap 13y ago
        Why should a party be anti-semitic? Do I sleep better if the guys in Israel have a bad time? No. I wish them the best. On the other hand, if a country (be it Israel or any other) threatens my country why can't I speak up?
    - endriju 13y ago
      I would say his post was misunderstood. There is a great deal of frustration in Eastern Europe (not only Hungary) coming from difficulties with integration of minorities (especially Roma minority) into society. Democracy didn't solve this problem nor money from EU did. Of course this topic is being misused by populists. The bad thing is that people who doesn't really care about the future of our countries take advantage of this problem for their personal power and wealth ambitions. Slovakia citizen (Hungary neighbor).
  - casiotone 13y ago
    Should have signed this "A fascist". "It's not fascism! It's just Common Sense that Racial Group X is the real threat facing Country Y."
    - friendly_chap 13y ago
      No racial group is a threat to my country. The leadership who intentionally creates these problems between racial groups so they can steal everything while the public is occupied with these visible problems is.
  - weland 13y ago
    > They are being called fascist because they want to stop the current practice of paying 2000$ for Roma families for raising children, while Hungarian families get 1/20 of that for the same task, all this while the average Hungarian works for 400$ a month. In all fairness, the uniforms, the cozy media bill and all that don't help very much, either.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    Is that because welfare payments going towards many of the children of 5% of the population are somehow crippling the Hungarian economy, or because racial identity is strengthened by attacking minorities? Whether a Hungarian supports or is against what is happening in Hungary, they always seem to confirm what I'm seeing on TV. Go figure.
- sz4kerto 13y ago
  It has nothing to do with racism or antisemitism. These guys are simply the first real politicians of the last 60 years - unfortunately, in a negative sense. They started as liberal democrats (not the Liberal Democratic Party), and they're just changing the ideologies as they see fit. I think one of the big issues is that people believe that these guys are driven by ideology, and that's how they want to fight them. They aren't. They want to stay in power and they'll do what's necessary. Simple as that.
nakedrobot2 13y ago
I would LOVE for all politicians to be spied on in this way, I think it is perfect. It is the only way to keep power in check.
- tokenizer 13y ago
  Who watches them? Are the watchers watched? By whom?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- mapleoin 13y ago
  Here, you forgot this: ؟
- malandrew 13y ago
  All elected politicians (and maybe their cabinet) with the "spying" being done by the populace who elected them seems fair. By "spying" I just mean full transparency. For anyone who is appointed or hired, this spying is most certainly a bad thing that leads to cronyism and nepotism.
ekianjo 13y ago
Krugman telling us it's bad for people in power to be under public scrutiny. Oh, Sweet conflict of interest.
- icebraining 13y ago
  "Public" scrutiny? Where's the public part?
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Allright, you are right, but some scrutiny is better than none at all.
- dimitar 13y ago
  This is written by a Princeton colleague of Krumgman, not by himself. And Krugman is in no sense in power - he is an economist that works in private sector (for a newspaper and a private university) and hasn't had a job in government in 30 years (and it wasn't a decision-making job.)
- Vivtek 13y ago
  Well there's a kneejerk reaction if I ever heard one. Is Krugman now a public official?
chiph 13y ago
There doesn't seem to be any upside to this, long-term. Don't sign the consent: You get fired. Sign the consent: In the short-term you get to keep your job, but you and your spouse get spied upon and you potentially lose your job one day anyway. And probably face criminal proceedings because you did something someone else didn't like.
- tome 13y ago
  [EDIT: Ignore me, I was talking nonsense, sorry chiph]
  - chiph 13y ago
    Don't think so.. Now that the law has passed, potential targets of surveillance must sign a “consent” form. If the targets have spouses, the spouses must sign consent forms, too. And if the targets or their spouses don’t consent to this surveillance, the targets lose their jobs. In short, this “consent” is not optional and the whole family is fair game for surveillance.
- VMG 13y ago
  The top echelon is exempt from being spied on. This is just a tool to exclude those who don't toe the party line. Family members will not have any problems.
friendly_chap 13y ago
For the folks who are interested, as a Hungarian I can give you a small report based on first hand experience. The current Fidesz government is simply a Mafia. They are the sons and grandsons of the communists who killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarians. Sándor Pintér[1], Minister of the Interior of Hungary is the biggest godfather in the country currently. They kill rivals, or send them into prison. Hungarians have the fewest rights in this country. They intentionally positively discriminate the Roma population to spark a civil war. Divide and conquer. There is also an ongoing international propaganda about how "antisemitic" are we. Nothing is further than the truth, there are 0 jewish people beaten per year. But this will be a good excuse to further decrease our liberty. A bill is going to pass (in a couple of weeks) which will allow foreigners to buy unlimited amounts of land without any control exposed on the process. This will result in the poor Hungarians losing land to wealthy people. If the bill passes (it will), Hungary will cease to exists in decades. The Jobbik and a couple of true politicans fight against these issues, they want to preserve the Hungarian nation. That's why you see a propaganda about them, framing them as evil, fascist, hateful people. Because the Jobbik and the defense of the homeland interferes with the bussiness of the Mafia government. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndor_Pint%C3%A9r http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndor_Pint%C3%A9r A Hungarian Edit: a little bonus, worthless anecdote, probably I am crazy and fascist because I find it disturbing: The Fidesz announced that to prevent minors from smoking they will move the selling of tobacco products to certain specialized shops. Poor dumb masses were like "ohh, not a stupid idea, young people smoking is bad hmmkay". Then, came the news, that the government decides who can run these shops. Of course all the winners were Fidesz friends (parts of the Mafia). Then first they raised the price of tobacco products, to provide bigger margins to these shops because "this is their only source of income". Then they allowed to sell other products, like chips, ice cream, whatever, they allowed such a wide range these products combined make up 40% of shop sales. So basically, with this move, the Fidesz took the right to run shops from the common people and gave it to the Mafia members. Well played! This is how the Hungarian middle class is being erased. And this is just a recent story! There is more to come I am sure.
- davnola 13y ago
  Last month Jobbik rallied against the World Jewish Congress in Budapest, protesting "against what it said was a Jewish attempt to buy up Hungary". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301 They frame themselves as fascist and anti-semite.
bliker 13y ago
This trend is also notable in Slovakia. Similar attitude toward Roma minority and sparks of shocking nationalism[1]. This is combined with nonfunctional judicial system and one party rule[2](recent poll). It is fucking scary. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/03/slovakia http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/03/slo... [2] https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1013458_10200495223117924_530936534_n.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/10134...
Vivtek 13y ago
Just a note, for anybody jumping on the Oh My God Hungary bandwagon: the people who passed this law and the people who are vocal antisemites and anti-Roma are not the same people. Fidesz is likely to lose the next election; they've really been overstepping their power. But it's a small country. As long as nobody outside supports them, they'll move on. What you read in Western European media is Eurocorporates being sure that if Hungary should ever endanger the profit they extract from the Hungarian poor (which is essentially everybody), they'll be sure to be knocking on the door with military force in the name of democracy. I think we know whose playbook that came from. Source: I'm an American living in Budapest. Racism is a convenient way to marginalize those who see inequity. They so very much want to understand why they don't have the money they see on TV. The answer is simple, as it always has been to the Eurogentile: the Jews took it! The Gypsies took it! It's never "The Swiss banks took it by giving you loans in a foreign currency knowing that the forint would slump", and God forbid it should ever be "Two years' worth of the Hungarian GDP was stolen and deposited in Swiss (and Cayman, etc.) banks by the old regime when it became obvious the handwriting was on the wall." This is the first I'd heard of this ridiculous law. There's a reason it's a problem when one well-disciplined party gets a supermajority so they can pass whatever the hell law they like. I hope the door strikes them soundly on the ass as they leave next year.
- pstuart 13y ago
  As an American I'm proud that we don't have such non-issues dividing us and that our electorate is well informed and are primarily issue voters, not mindless sheep voting party lines.
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    Nothing I said there doesn't apply to people anywhere in the world, and most especially including America. But I can't tell your intent with this statement - you could be ironically noting that America is in the same boat, or you could be implying that I'm coming off as arrogant. Either way, my paragraph about racism may be couched in Hungarian terms but it's most definitely a universal means of manipulating people who are too busy to think much about politics.
programminggeek 13y ago
I'm not sure if anyone else clicked through to the article expecting a tirade on the evils of Hungarian notation. Needless to day, I was disappointed.

64 points by yk 13y ago

Overall, the development of politics in Hungary over the past few years has been disturbing. Right wing populists with fascist tendencies have been voted into power, large rallies of uniformed believers in the streets of Budapest, overt and unapologetic antisemitism, overt and violent threats against other minorities, pointless nationalist posturing towards neighbouring countries.

friendly_chap 13y ago
>> Right wing populists with fascist tendencies They are patriots. They are being called fascist because they want to stop the current practice of paying 2000$ for Roma families for raising children, while Hungarian families get 1/20 of that for the same task, all this while the average Hungarian works for 400$ a month. Don't believe everything what you see on TV. Go figure. A Hungarian
- arkitaip 13y ago
  This is the most ridiculous framing of Hungary's problems with racism and extremism [1][2][3][4][5] I've read in a long time. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/hungary-right-political-abyss http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/05/hungary-... [2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/16/hungary-rule-law-under-threat http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/16/hungary-rule-law-under-th... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik [4] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/10037188/Inside-the-far-Right-stronghold-where-Hungarian-Jews-fear-for-the-future.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/100... [5] http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id-moe/09566.pdf http://library.fes.de/pdf-files/id-moe/09566.pdf
  - friendly_chap 13y ago
    What is your point exactly? I can call your post ridicolous and link 4-5 links too but I will still lack a point!
    - arkitaip 13y ago
      My point should be perfectly obvious: the people that you nauseating describe as patriots are nothing more than racists, thugs and nationalists. I've provided several different independent and credible sources to support this claim - can you do the same?
    - phaer 13y ago
      Those are quite reliable sources, while you are just one person who seem to sympathize with Jobbik. If you post 5 links to (kind of) neutral sources, i'll gladly read them.
    - friendly_chap 13y ago
      To the two sibling comments: In those links, please tell me, what proves that the Jobbik is a fascist party? Also, I am not a person sympathizing with Jobbik, I am first and foremost a Hungarian, who lives here. If people are murdering my family, no amount of your links will prove that they are alive and well. It's that simple.
      - icebraining 13y ago
        If people are murdering my family, no amount of your links will prove that they are alive and well. It's that simple. But you were the one claiming they aren't anti-semitic, so why should we believe it in face of the reported incidents?
        friendly_chap 13y ago
        Why should a party be anti-semitic? Do I sleep better if the guys in Israel have a bad time? No. I wish them the best. On the other hand, if a country (be it Israel or any other) threatens my country why can't I speak up?
  - endriju 13y ago
    I would say his post was misunderstood. There is a great deal of frustration in Eastern Europe (not only Hungary) coming from difficulties with integration of minorities (especially Roma minority) into society. Democracy didn't solve this problem nor money from EU did. Of course this topic is being misused by populists. The bad thing is that people who doesn't really care about the future of our countries take advantage of this problem for their personal power and wealth ambitions. Slovakia citizen (Hungary neighbor).
- casiotone 13y ago
  Should have signed this "A fascist". "It's not fascism! It's just Common Sense that Racial Group X is the real threat facing Country Y."
  - friendly_chap 13y ago
    No racial group is a threat to my country. The leadership who intentionally creates these problems between racial groups so they can steal everything while the public is occupied with these visible problems is.
- weland 13y ago
  > They are being called fascist because they want to stop the current practice of paying 2000$ for Roma families for raising children, while Hungarian families get 1/20 of that for the same task, all this while the average Hungarian works for 400$ a month. In all fairness, the uniforms, the cozy media bill and all that don't help very much, either.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  Is that because welfare payments going towards many of the children of 5% of the population are somehow crippling the Hungarian economy, or because racial identity is strengthened by attacking minorities? Whether a Hungarian supports or is against what is happening in Hungary, they always seem to confirm what I'm seeing on TV. Go figure.
sz4kerto 13y ago
It has nothing to do with racism or antisemitism. These guys are simply the first real politicians of the last 60 years - unfortunately, in a negative sense. They started as liberal democrats (not the Liberal Democratic Party), and they're just changing the ideologies as they see fit. I think one of the big issues is that people believe that these guys are driven by ideology, and that's how they want to fight them. They aren't. They want to stay in power and they'll do what's necessary. Simple as that.

nakedrobot2 13y ago

I would LOVE for all politicians to be spied on in this way, I think it is perfect. It is the only way to keep power in check.

tokenizer 13y ago
Who watches them? Are the watchers watched? By whom?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
mapleoin 13y ago
Here, you forgot this: ؟
malandrew 13y ago
All elected politicians (and maybe their cabinet) with the "spying" being done by the populace who elected them seems fair. By "spying" I just mean full transparency. For anyone who is appointed or hired, this spying is most certainly a bad thing that leads to cronyism and nepotism.

ekianjo 13y ago

Krugman telling us it's bad for people in power to be under public scrutiny. Oh, Sweet conflict of interest.

icebraining 13y ago
"Public" scrutiny? Where's the public part?
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Allright, you are right, but some scrutiny is better than none at all.
dimitar 13y ago
This is written by a Princeton colleague of Krumgman, not by himself. And Krugman is in no sense in power - he is an economist that works in private sector (for a newspaper and a private university) and hasn't had a job in government in 30 years (and it wasn't a decision-making job.)
Vivtek 13y ago
Well there's a kneejerk reaction if I ever heard one. Is Krugman now a public official?

chiph 13y ago

There doesn't seem to be any upside to this, long-term. Don't sign the consent: You get fired. Sign the consent: In the short-term you get to keep your job, but you and your spouse get spied upon and you potentially lose your job one day anyway. And probably face criminal proceedings because you did something someone else didn't like.

tome 13y ago
[EDIT: Ignore me, I was talking nonsense, sorry chiph]
- chiph 13y ago
  Don't think so.. Now that the law has passed, potential targets of surveillance must sign a “consent” form. If the targets have spouses, the spouses must sign consent forms, too. And if the targets or their spouses don’t consent to this surveillance, the targets lose their jobs. In short, this “consent” is not optional and the whole family is fair game for surveillance.
VMG 13y ago
The top echelon is exempt from being spied on. This is just a tool to exclude those who don't toe the party line. Family members will not have any problems.

friendly_chap 13y ago

For the folks who are interested, as a Hungarian I can give you a small report based on first hand experience. The current Fidesz government is simply a Mafia. They are the sons and grandsons of the communists who killed hundreds of thousands of Hungarians. Sándor Pintér[1], Minister of the Interior of Hungary is the biggest godfather in the country currently. They kill rivals, or send them into prison. Hungarians have the fewest rights in this country. They intentionally positively discriminate the Roma population to spark a civil war. Divide and conquer. There is also an ongoing international propaganda about how "antisemitic" are we. Nothing is further than the truth, there are 0 jewish people beaten per year. But this will be a good excuse to further decrease our liberty. A bill is going to pass (in a couple of weeks) which will allow foreigners to buy unlimited amounts of land without any control exposed on the process. This will result in the poor Hungarians losing land to wealthy people. If the bill passes (it will), Hungary will cease to exists in decades. The Jobbik and a couple of true politicans fight against these issues, they want to preserve the Hungarian nation. That's why you see a propaganda about them, framing them as evil, fascist, hateful people. Because the Jobbik and the defense of the homeland interferes with the bussiness of the Mafia government. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndor_Pint%C3%A9r http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1ndor_Pint%C3%A9r A Hungarian Edit: a little bonus, worthless anecdote, probably I am crazy and fascist because I find it disturbing: The Fidesz announced that to prevent minors from smoking they will move the selling of tobacco products to certain specialized shops. Poor dumb masses were like "ohh, not a stupid idea, young people smoking is bad hmmkay". Then, came the news, that the government decides who can run these shops. Of course all the winners were Fidesz friends (parts of the Mafia). Then first they raised the price of tobacco products, to provide bigger margins to these shops because "this is their only source of income". Then they allowed to sell other products, like chips, ice cream, whatever, they allowed such a wide range these products combined make up 40% of shop sales. So basically, with this move, the Fidesz took the right to run shops from the common people and gave it to the Mafia members. Well played! This is how the Hungarian middle class is being erased. And this is just a recent story! There is more to come I am sure.

davnola 13y ago
Last month Jobbik rallied against the World Jewish Congress in Budapest, protesting "against what it said was a Jewish attempt to buy up Hungary". http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22413301 They frame themselves as fascist and anti-semite.

bliker 13y ago

This trend is also notable in Slovakia. Similar attitude toward Roma minority and sparks of shocking nationalism[1]. This is combined with nonfunctional judicial system and one party rule[2](recent poll). It is fucking scary. [1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/03/slovakia http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/03/slo... [2] https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1013458_10200495223117924_530936534_n.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/10134...

Vivtek 13y ago

Just a note, for anybody jumping on the Oh My God Hungary bandwagon: the people who passed this law and the people who are vocal antisemites and anti-Roma are not the same people. Fidesz is likely to lose the next election; they've really been overstepping their power. But it's a small country. As long as nobody outside supports them, they'll move on. What you read in Western European media is Eurocorporates being sure that if Hungary should ever endanger the profit they extract from the Hungarian poor (which is essentially everybody), they'll be sure to be knocking on the door with military force in the name of democracy. I think we know whose playbook that came from. Source: I'm an American living in Budapest. Racism is a convenient way to marginalize those who see inequity. They so very much want to understand why they don't have the money they see on TV. The answer is simple, as it always has been to the Eurogentile: the Jews took it! The Gypsies took it! It's never "The Swiss banks took it by giving you loans in a foreign currency knowing that the forint would slump", and God forbid it should ever be "Two years' worth of the Hungarian GDP was stolen and deposited in Swiss (and Cayman, etc.) banks by the old regime when it became obvious the handwriting was on the wall." This is the first I'd heard of this ridiculous law. There's a reason it's a problem when one well-disciplined party gets a supermajority so they can pass whatever the hell law they like. I hope the door strikes them soundly on the ass as they leave next year.

pstuart 13y ago
As an American I'm proud that we don't have such non-issues dividing us and that our electorate is well informed and are primarily issue voters, not mindless sheep voting party lines.
- Vivtek 13y ago
  Nothing I said there doesn't apply to people anywhere in the world, and most especially including America. But I can't tell your intent with this statement - you could be ironically noting that America is in the same boat, or you could be implying that I'm coming off as arrogant. Either way, my paragraph about racism may be couched in Hungarian terms but it's most definitely a universal means of manipulating people who are too busy to think much about politics.

programminggeek 13y ago

I'm not sure if anyone else clicked through to the article expecting a tirade on the evils of Hungarian notation. Needless to day, I was disappointed.