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That video is heartbreaking. "You may have heard of her, her name is Wonder Woman", tears. He lived in a Buddhist monastery at one point; life is suffering. He

That video is heartbreaking. "You may have heard of her, her name is Wonder Woman", tears. He lived in a Buddhist monastery at one point; life is suffering. He'll soon leave his loved ones, and he knows it's very much sooner than later. What can you do in such a situation? Clinging to life, little time remaining, what to do? I thought something ridiculous, like go on retreat until the end, but right where he is, with his wife and kids is probably just perfect. They're all being transformed by the experience. Yours is not to reason why rings true. Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living?

virtualwhys 13y ago
Apologies to anyone offended by my views, this struck an unintended chord for some of you, was just expressing myself in the moment based on my own experience of the death of a loved one.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  I hope you've noticed that a number of people came forward to relate a similar perspective on death. I really respect your decision to bow out of the emotionally charged conflict in the thread. ...However, I am not inclined to be so wise. If you're reading this, please try to understand my position even if you feel affronted by it; bare in mind also that there is some of my own emotion in this and I recognize I'm venting a bit. For some people, emotions are a very public thing. They are shared with anyone and everyone nearby. For some people, they are a quiet, contemplative thing. They are felt and shared only with those close to them. What happens in public settings is that people that feel quietly are shunted out. They aren't heard, they don't express themselves because, by their nature, they don't have to. Attachment to death seems immature to me. It seems like we have to trumpet again how awful death is, say the things that everyone knows. Because that's the other thing about emotionally loud people: they have to make sure everyone's feeling the same things, that we're all on the same page. virtualwhys experience with a close friend's suicide was criticized: he was told he was __grieving wrong__. The appalling rudeness of this is overlooked because virtualwhys, a quiet person, emotionally, stepped out rather than continue to feel like he was stepping on other people's emotions. Quietly emotional people respect other peoples' feelings. Meanwhile, a lot of _other_ people are quietly relating their own grief in similar terms as virtualwhys. Look, death is an experience. You can't change it. Even if we cure everything someday, that won't change the fact that we've lived and died. Wringing your hands about death is only additional suffering. Because that's the beautiful thing about accepting death: you can make it more about life than loss. It is an experience of the vital things, the core things, the deep bonds and strong connections. Aaron will die, with his family around him, still looking to the future and full of life. That is very profoundly beautiful. It is a gift. More to the point, it just _is_. It cannot be changed, but it can be appreciated. Here's where I fall on virtualwhys side: to me, any other understanding of grief seems to be pretending you could possibly have control. Death forces us to see that we have no control--and when that is pointed out, _some_ of us can't handle it. Yeah, that last part is a bit rude, and I apologize... somewhat.
  - cellularmitosis 13y ago
    Having had a bit of exposure and interest in Zen, I have come to appreciate some Buddhist perspectives towards life (and death), so I am saddened to see that perspective offending some. I am struck with the thought "How can I bring them closer to understanding this perspective?". So I thought I'd post a lecture from Alan Watts, on death, as observed from a western perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZTK4SWwpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZTK4SWwpg Watts studied Zen in the 50's and tried to bring it back to the states in the 60's and 70's.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
nova 13y ago
> Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? You've got to be kidding. (A very dark kind of humor, I guess)
- virtualwhys 13y ago
  Not kidding at all. Inevitable death awaits while we throw ourselves into the business of living. When a loved one dies, that breaks you down, melts the ice block of arrogant I-know-what's-up thinking. That is absolutely a gift to the living, and his wife and kids are getting that gift deeply, in their bones -- I've heard it called, eating Buddha's rice.
  - cantankerous 13y ago
    I think you'll find a lot of folks that will think that, while what you say may be true, this is not a good trade. I'd rather somebody be a d-bag and still have their dad than treat me well and not have their dad any more. I think there are viable alternatives to learning more about your humanity than losing a loved one. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't think it's worth losing somebody you love dearly. To each his own, I guess.
  - asax 13y ago
    I'm pretty confident that you have never lost anybody close.
    - virtualwhys 13y ago
      I struggled for a long time with the suicide of someone close to me. It dawned on me years later that for all of us affected (ripped apart) by his death (age 24) that we were given a gift: suffering. Looking back, I left my comfortable box -- dropped out of college, shaved my head and entered a monastery -- trying to make sense of it. That broke me, several family members, and his closest friends in a way that a so called natural death might not do since it was his choice and our guilt.
      - 13y ago
bcgraham 13y ago
>Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? Everyone who's experienced it?
- wpietri 13y ago
  Not everyone. My mother's death was in many ways her last gift to me. I would not have traded her for what I have gained. But neither would I erase the experience of loss, as painful and traumatic as it was. I am a much better person, a much stronger person, a much more compassionate person.
  - passwdispasswd 13y ago
    No harm meant but your post just sounds like a coping mechanism.
    - wpietri 13y ago
      I could see why you'd think that, but I'm pretty sure it's not. Nothing is purely negative, and I think it's important to keep that in mind. Especially when one's attitude and reactions can amplify or diminish the good parts. If you want to look for coping mechanisms in this discussion, consider all the denial around the inevitability of death.
  - philh 13y ago
    > I would not have traded her for what I have gained. It sounds like you and bcgraham are in agreement, just meaning different things by the word "gift".
darkarmani 13y ago
> Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? Gifts are generally things given willingly. I think you might want to rephrase.
dtauzell 13y ago
In some sense everything is a "gift" because all the lessons we learn lead us to some ultimate spiritual goal. That said, I don't think "gift" is the best word and prefer "lesson" instead. Would you apply the word "gift" to any horrible genocide/natural disaster that has happened? Perhaps you would, but for most people, "Lesson" will resonate better.
- virtualwhys 13y ago
  This struck a chord. Maybe lesson is the better word, but gift rings true for me in my experience. I wouldn't call suffering a lesson, it just is; that is the gift, the whole thing.
VMG 13y ago
Please remind me to not invite you to my birthday party.
ars 13y ago
> life is suffering That's horrible. Life is not suffering, life is joy and happiness. Does Buddhism really believe such a terrible thing?
- gph 13y ago
  I'm not an expert, but I think the translation to the english word suffering isn't perfect. It comes with a lot of heavy connotations. I've always thought struggle is a better word. Some people have negative reactions to struggle, but others use them to grow and become stronger. Again I'm not a buddhist adherent, but I think the general idea is that life is a constant struggle and it's how you view and react to that struggle that will define your life. Reaching peace and eternal happiness comes from accepting that struggle and growing with it. Or something like that.
  - ars 13y ago
    If that's what he meant, then we can agree, and I was too harsh in what I wrote. virtualwhys: If this really is what you meant, then please, start using a different word.
    - markost 13y ago
      Buddha said life is "dukkha", a word that his listeners would have recognized as sounding like a wheel with the axle slightly out of true: "Duka-duka-duka"... He indeed meant that life is suffering. English speakers today translate the word as "suffering", "pain", "disappointment", or perhaps "striving" (a sentiment you will find echoed in Ecclesiastes). Buddha also spoke about the cause of suffering, and suggested that if you can escape from the cause, you can escape from the suffering. I personally disagree with this advice: Why would I want to escape from love, hate, pain, joy, and everything else? But I don't disagree with the basic teaching. Everyone has a cross to bear.
      - cellularmitosis 13y ago
        I've struggled a lot with truly understanding what it means to strike attachment from one's life. When you take it to its logical conclusion, it seems absurd (being unattached to your wife? To your children?). I think of it like this: when the untrained mind is enjoying something, there are two aspects to that experience: the appreciation of the beauty or pleasure you derive from it, but also the attachment, the clutching or grasping and anxiety which would follow that thing being taken away. I think "no attachment" is advocating that you get yourself in a mental state where you can have one without the other: to appreciate something while it lasts but not clutch to it or get hung up on it when it passes.
bargl 13y ago
Death is not the gift. The time we get with our loved ones is the gift. That's really where you get to experience the emotions that make you happy to be alive. Joy, love, hope, desire, anger, frustration, etc. I'll say that a NEAR death experience tends to be more of a gift, it happened to my brother and changed him drastically. Not all for the better, but much of it was good. I think the idea of calling death a gift is bullshit. Yes, you can learn and grow from the death of a loved one, but that isn't a gift, it's the absence of their presence (the real gift) that makes you realize what you had. To me, life without the lows and highs, is boring. That is because lows make people realize how special the high points are. But I know other people who would be content without either.

virtualwhys 13y ago

Apologies to anyone offended by my views, this struck an unintended chord for some of you, was just expressing myself in the moment based on my own experience of the death of a loved one.

Helianthus 13y ago
I hope you've noticed that a number of people came forward to relate a similar perspective on death. I really respect your decision to bow out of the emotionally charged conflict in the thread. ...However, I am not inclined to be so wise. If you're reading this, please try to understand my position even if you feel affronted by it; bare in mind also that there is some of my own emotion in this and I recognize I'm venting a bit. For some people, emotions are a very public thing. They are shared with anyone and everyone nearby. For some people, they are a quiet, contemplative thing. They are felt and shared only with those close to them. What happens in public settings is that people that feel quietly are shunted out. They aren't heard, they don't express themselves because, by their nature, they don't have to. Attachment to death seems immature to me. It seems like we have to trumpet again how awful death is, say the things that everyone knows. Because that's the other thing about emotionally loud people: they have to make sure everyone's feeling the same things, that we're all on the same page. virtualwhys experience with a close friend's suicide was criticized: he was told he was __grieving wrong__. The appalling rudeness of this is overlooked because virtualwhys, a quiet person, emotionally, stepped out rather than continue to feel like he was stepping on other people's emotions. Quietly emotional people respect other peoples' feelings. Meanwhile, a lot of _other_ people are quietly relating their own grief in similar terms as virtualwhys. Look, death is an experience. You can't change it. Even if we cure everything someday, that won't change the fact that we've lived and died. Wringing your hands about death is only additional suffering. Because that's the beautiful thing about accepting death: you can make it more about life than loss. It is an experience of the vital things, the core things, the deep bonds and strong connections. Aaron will die, with his family around him, still looking to the future and full of life. That is very profoundly beautiful. It is a gift. More to the point, it just _is_. It cannot be changed, but it can be appreciated. Here's where I fall on virtualwhys side: to me, any other understanding of grief seems to be pretending you could possibly have control. Death forces us to see that we have no control--and when that is pointed out, _some_ of us can't handle it. Yeah, that last part is a bit rude, and I apologize... somewhat.
- cellularmitosis 13y ago
  Having had a bit of exposure and interest in Zen, I have come to appreciate some Buddhist perspectives towards life (and death), so I am saddened to see that perspective offending some. I am struck with the thought "How can I bring them closer to understanding this perspective?". So I thought I'd post a lecture from Alan Watts, on death, as observed from a western perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZTK4SWwpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZTK4SWwpg Watts studied Zen in the 50's and tried to bring it back to the states in the 60's and 70's.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

nova 13y ago

> Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? You've got to be kidding. (A very dark kind of humor, I guess)

virtualwhys 13y ago
Not kidding at all. Inevitable death awaits while we throw ourselves into the business of living. When a loved one dies, that breaks you down, melts the ice block of arrogant I-know-what's-up thinking. That is absolutely a gift to the living, and his wife and kids are getting that gift deeply, in their bones -- I've heard it called, eating Buddha's rice.
- cantankerous 13y ago
  I think you'll find a lot of folks that will think that, while what you say may be true, this is not a good trade. I'd rather somebody be a d-bag and still have their dad than treat me well and not have their dad any more. I think there are viable alternatives to learning more about your humanity than losing a loved one. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying I don't think it's worth losing somebody you love dearly. To each his own, I guess.
- asax 13y ago
  I'm pretty confident that you have never lost anybody close.
  - virtualwhys 13y ago
    I struggled for a long time with the suicide of someone close to me. It dawned on me years later that for all of us affected (ripped apart) by his death (age 24) that we were given a gift: suffering. Looking back, I left my comfortable box -- dropped out of college, shaved my head and entered a monastery -- trying to make sense of it. That broke me, several family members, and his closest friends in a way that a so called natural death might not do since it was his choice and our guilt.
    - 13y ago

bcgraham 13y ago

>Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? Everyone who's experienced it?

wpietri 13y ago
Not everyone. My mother's death was in many ways her last gift to me. I would not have traded her for what I have gained. But neither would I erase the experience of loss, as painful and traumatic as it was. I am a much better person, a much stronger person, a much more compassionate person.
- passwdispasswd 13y ago
  No harm meant but your post just sounds like a coping mechanism.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    I could see why you'd think that, but I'm pretty sure it's not. Nothing is purely negative, and I think it's important to keep that in mind. Especially when one's attitude and reactions can amplify or diminish the good parts. If you want to look for coping mechanisms in this discussion, consider all the denial around the inevitability of death.
- philh 13y ago
  > I would not have traded her for what I have gained. It sounds like you and bcgraham are in agreement, just meaning different things by the word "gift".

darkarmani 13y ago

> Who's to say that an "early" death is not in fact a gift for the living? Gifts are generally things given willingly. I think you might want to rephrase.

dtauzell 13y ago

In some sense everything is a "gift" because all the lessons we learn lead us to some ultimate spiritual goal. That said, I don't think "gift" is the best word and prefer "lesson" instead. Would you apply the word "gift" to any horrible genocide/natural disaster that has happened? Perhaps you would, but for most people, "Lesson" will resonate better.

virtualwhys 13y ago
This struck a chord. Maybe lesson is the better word, but gift rings true for me in my experience. I wouldn't call suffering a lesson, it just is; that is the gift, the whole thing.

VMG 13y ago

Please remind me to not invite you to my birthday party.

ars 13y ago

> life is suffering That's horrible. Life is not suffering, life is joy and happiness. Does Buddhism really believe such a terrible thing?

gph 13y ago
I'm not an expert, but I think the translation to the english word suffering isn't perfect. It comes with a lot of heavy connotations. I've always thought struggle is a better word. Some people have negative reactions to struggle, but others use them to grow and become stronger. Again I'm not a buddhist adherent, but I think the general idea is that life is a constant struggle and it's how you view and react to that struggle that will define your life. Reaching peace and eternal happiness comes from accepting that struggle and growing with it. Or something like that.
- ars 13y ago
  If that's what he meant, then we can agree, and I was too harsh in what I wrote. virtualwhys: If this really is what you meant, then please, start using a different word.
  - markost 13y ago
    Buddha said life is "dukkha", a word that his listeners would have recognized as sounding like a wheel with the axle slightly out of true: "Duka-duka-duka"... He indeed meant that life is suffering. English speakers today translate the word as "suffering", "pain", "disappointment", or perhaps "striving" (a sentiment you will find echoed in Ecclesiastes). Buddha also spoke about the cause of suffering, and suggested that if you can escape from the cause, you can escape from the suffering. I personally disagree with this advice: Why would I want to escape from love, hate, pain, joy, and everything else? But I don't disagree with the basic teaching. Everyone has a cross to bear.
    - cellularmitosis 13y ago
      I've struggled a lot with truly understanding what it means to strike attachment from one's life. When you take it to its logical conclusion, it seems absurd (being unattached to your wife? To your children?). I think of it like this: when the untrained mind is enjoying something, there are two aspects to that experience: the appreciation of the beauty or pleasure you derive from it, but also the attachment, the clutching or grasping and anxiety which would follow that thing being taken away. I think "no attachment" is advocating that you get yourself in a mental state where you can have one without the other: to appreciate something while it lasts but not clutch to it or get hung up on it when it passes.

bargl 13y ago

Death is not the gift. The time we get with our loved ones is the gift. That's really where you get to experience the emotions that make you happy to be alive. Joy, love, hope, desire, anger, frustration, etc. I'll say that a NEAR death experience tends to be more of a gift, it happened to my brother and changed him drastically. Not all for the better, but much of it was good. I think the idea of calling death a gift is bullshit. Yes, you can learn and grow from the death of a loved one, but that isn't a gift, it's the absence of their presence (the real gift) that makes you realize what you had. To me, life without the lows and highs, is boring. That is because lows make people realize how special the high points are. But I know other people who would be content without either.