4 ms·

That is a pretty naive point of view. I think the exact opposite of what you posit is closer to the truth of things -- a more carefully planned economy would h

by clicks 13y ago

That is a pretty naive point of view. I think the exact opposite of what you posit is closer to the truth of things -- a more carefully planned economy would have resulted in better conditions. If China was straight up laissez faire capitalistic economy it would be a total mess right now. Read Albert Einstein's take on this, http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism for why and how (long read, but I promise it's worth it).

maxharris 13y ago
China tried a "carefully planned economy," for decades and it resulted in mass death, poverty, stagnation for hundreds of millions of people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward Einstein died before many of these crucial developments either had taken place, or were widely known in the West. Also, he was a physicist, not a philosopher or historian. He had neither the actual knowledge about the world nor a solid grounding in the humanities to guide his thought in that essay you cite. Before you say that someone has a "naive point of view," you might want to try reading just a little bit of history. And not just from Marxist/socialist authors. There are other perspectives out there, and you might find that they explain the facts of history better than your current view, if you only bother to look.
- Daishiman 13y ago
  I'm in no way going to defend the Great Leap Forward, but governments can have policies that are better or worse irrelevant of ideology, and such policies can be developed and improved. In hindisight, despite the huge amounts of problems the Chinese society has (some of which are truly scary and may become emblems of future times), it cannot be denied that it is a country that has had a streak of massive, incredible growth and has hoisted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. This does not contradict the fact that the same government had such massive failures in the past. I abhor the current Chinese state, but I really, really doubt that Western Capitalism would have been half as effective, at the very least not without costing the Chinese a huge relinquishment of capital and corporations in the hands of foreign interests, not a favorable position to be in. You can't implement certain policies without having absolute control of some parameters.
  - bad_user 13y ago
    Your making the assumption that a government could accurately predict what would happen within certain parameters and make good decisions based on that. However, making long-term predictions on the evolution of an economic system is impossible, as the number of parameters you have to take into account is huge and the complexity growth is exponential for every new parameter you add to your equation and the variation is theoretically infinite. Mandelbrot's study of price changes in financial markets should shed some light there, if you're interested. Not only that, but those in power even with enough knowledge do not necessarily make the best decisions for their country if it goes against their own selfish objectives and that's just human nature. This is one of those cases where (uninformed) theory is very different from practice. Yes, on paper communism was perfect and those that still defend it always come up with the excuse that "it wasn't properly implemented". Also, China is special. China has always been a superpower. They invented paper. They invented gunpowder. They have probably beaten Columbus to discovering America. The area they occupy is bigger than Europe. They've got all the natural resources they need and plenty to spare for export. They have the world's biggest population. Why is it any wonder that China can still grow, in spite of their failures? On the other hand, the biggest mistake one could make is to assume that what works for China can work for other countries. If anything, to me it's a wonder how much smaller countries with no natural resources to speak of, like Japan, managed to stay ahead for so long, being a testament to how disastrous and inefficient the Chinese government has been over the course of hundreds of years.
    - clicks 13y ago
      You don't make any convincing or exceptionally novel points I'm afraid, it's the same old rehashing of poorly construed history data. I mentioned this earlier but I'll say it again: It seems the free market is apparently doing a pretty lousy job, if we've come to a reality where two lucky dudes who were well connected could sell their photo-sharing app for a billion all the while a good half of the country risks getting financially decimated come an unforeseen disease or bad accident somewhere. You will agree with me that at least here in the US, the experiment of 'capitalism' is shaping to spell failure, no?
- skylan_q 13y ago
  I wouldn't feed the troll. My family ran away from a country with a planned economy. I'm getting ready to jump ship in the same fashion if they start "planning" the economy where we currently are.

by clicks 13y ago

maxharris 13y ago

China tried a "carefully planned economy," for decades and it resulted in mass death, poverty, stagnation for hundreds of millions of people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward Einstein died before many of these crucial developments either had taken place, or were widely known in the West. Also, he was a physicist, not a philosopher or historian. He had neither the actual knowledge about the world nor a solid grounding in the humanities to guide his thought in that essay you cite. Before you say that someone has a "naive point of view," you might want to try reading just a little bit of history. And not just from Marxist/socialist authors. There are other perspectives out there, and you might find that they explain the facts of history better than your current view, if you only bother to look.

Daishiman 13y ago
I'm in no way going to defend the Great Leap Forward, but governments can have policies that are better or worse irrelevant of ideology, and such policies can be developed and improved. In hindisight, despite the huge amounts of problems the Chinese society has (some of which are truly scary and may become emblems of future times), it cannot be denied that it is a country that has had a streak of massive, incredible growth and has hoisted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. This does not contradict the fact that the same government had such massive failures in the past. I abhor the current Chinese state, but I really, really doubt that Western Capitalism would have been half as effective, at the very least not without costing the Chinese a huge relinquishment of capital and corporations in the hands of foreign interests, not a favorable position to be in. You can't implement certain policies without having absolute control of some parameters.
- bad_user 13y ago
  Your making the assumption that a government could accurately predict what would happen within certain parameters and make good decisions based on that. However, making long-term predictions on the evolution of an economic system is impossible, as the number of parameters you have to take into account is huge and the complexity growth is exponential for every new parameter you add to your equation and the variation is theoretically infinite. Mandelbrot's study of price changes in financial markets should shed some light there, if you're interested. Not only that, but those in power even with enough knowledge do not necessarily make the best decisions for their country if it goes against their own selfish objectives and that's just human nature. This is one of those cases where (uninformed) theory is very different from practice. Yes, on paper communism was perfect and those that still defend it always come up with the excuse that "it wasn't properly implemented". Also, China is special. China has always been a superpower. They invented paper. They invented gunpowder. They have probably beaten Columbus to discovering America. The area they occupy is bigger than Europe. They've got all the natural resources they need and plenty to spare for export. They have the world's biggest population. Why is it any wonder that China can still grow, in spite of their failures? On the other hand, the biggest mistake one could make is to assume that what works for China can work for other countries. If anything, to me it's a wonder how much smaller countries with no natural resources to speak of, like Japan, managed to stay ahead for so long, being a testament to how disastrous and inefficient the Chinese government has been over the course of hundreds of years.
  - clicks 13y ago
    You don't make any convincing or exceptionally novel points I'm afraid, it's the same old rehashing of poorly construed history data. I mentioned this earlier but I'll say it again: It seems the free market is apparently doing a pretty lousy job, if we've come to a reality where two lucky dudes who were well connected could sell their photo-sharing app for a billion all the while a good half of the country risks getting financially decimated come an unforeseen disease or bad accident somewhere. You will agree with me that at least here in the US, the experiment of 'capitalism' is shaping to spell failure, no?
skylan_q 13y ago
I wouldn't feed the troll. My family ran away from a country with a planned economy. I'm getting ready to jump ship in the same fashion if they start "planning" the economy where we currently are.