6 ms·

yeah to cut straight to the chase a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA.

rayiner 13y ago
As long as you don't care about the whole democracy thing.
- cwp 13y ago
  Well, it sounds like their system is the polar opposite of the US: they can't choose their government, but it does what the people want.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    It does what a certain segment of the society wants. Government for the professional upper class by the professional upper class.
    - fatjokes 13y ago
      So... exactly like the US?
      - samstave 13y ago
        Minus the police state attempting to interfere into every aspect of an individuals life.
        jessedhillon 13y ago
        You should really indicate sarcasm if you're going to write something like that.
        likpok 13y ago
        Given the histrionics on HN lately, I'm not sure he's being sarcastic.
  - meric 13y ago
    That's what it appears on the outside - The Hong Kong government and Chinese government spend a lot of effort to maintain this image. Take a deeper look and you will see this isn't the case. The government has previously tried to sneak Chinese propaganda into primary schools as well as pass copyright laws that will outlaw (often political) satire and allow governments to sue on behalf of companies(!!). It was only from SOPA style opposition as well as massive street protests (measured in hundreds of thousands of people) these measures haven't passed yet. Source: I was born in Hong Kong.
    - joe_the_user 13y ago
      Yes, but these protest did happen and I'm assuming then the measures were defeated. That is something and one can be at least doubtful that this would happen in the US. And it's not because the US government isn't doing some pretty horrible things, as we can see.
      - Karunamon 13y ago
        Uhh.. wasn't massive popular outcry what got SOPA killed?
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  - Qantourisc 13y ago
    If China cuts pollution, respects human rights, and improves working/live for a lot of people (those are the complains I hear about)it should be a good place. Then the only debatable thing that remains in censorship, and "absolute power corrupts absolutely". It might not be a democracy, but if people are truly happy/content ... why would they riot ?
    - tomkarlo 13y ago
      So if China solves its three biggest, most intractable problems, it'll be a great place to live? No problem.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        No problem, as long as you're not an ethnic or religious minority.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        You're right, the USA has always been a wonderful place for those folks.
        rayiner 13y ago
        It's a hell of a lot better in the U.S. for these folks now than it is in China now.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        The premise of this thread is that China is going to solve three giant intractable problems. That might take some time. When they're done, will over 40% of our male prison population still be black?
        rayiner 13y ago
        And my point is that even after solving those problems, China will still have a ways to go before it's even crappy at dealing with minorities like the U.S.
  - grandalf 13y ago
    We in the US tend to underestimate the power that populations have even if it's not explicitly linked to voting.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  The US is a democracy?
  - vaadu 13y ago
    No. On paper it's a Republic. In reality the USA is run by a bunch of self serving politicians and unelected bureaucrats who get their positions from the special interest and big business lobbies. It will only get worse as long as people want security over liberty and elections are decided by money and not voters.
krapp 13y ago
a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA. Define 'free' in this context.
- jakobe 13y ago
  Maybe freedom to communicate without being subject to government surveillance?
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Unless you're a democratic activist: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/eap/187483.htm http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/eap/187483.htm (Section 2(a)). (" Democratic activists claimed central government authorities closely monitored their e-mails and Internet use. In a Netizens Power survey, 33 percent of users of Golden Forum, a popular local Internet community forum, said they had some of their online posts deleted over the past year and almost half indicated this was because their posted content was 'too politically sensitive.'") Also, the system they have in place for surveillance of telecommunications seems exactly the same as the one the U.S. does: "The use of covert surveillance and the interception of telecommunications and postal communications can be granted only to prevent or detect 'serious crime' or protect 'public security.' The law establishes a two-tiered system for granting approval for surveillance activities, under which surveillance of a more intrusive nature requires the approval of a judge, and surveillance of a less intrusive nature requires the approval of a senior law-enforcement official." (Section 1(f)). Indeed, the U.S. system is a bit more stringent, because "surveillance of a less intrusive nature" requires a law-enforcement official to get a FISA warrant (from a court that isn't an Article III court but is composed of Article III judges).
- sporkologist 13y ago
  I'm guessing, in the 4th amendment sense.
D_Alex 13y ago
Dunno about "free", but what really bothers me is that someone decided to seek asylum from the US. US used to be the gold standard in democracy and justice.
- Dewie 13y ago
  In the 19th century?
- wmil 13y ago
  There have been plenty of people over the years who have requested asylum from the US. It's not a new thing. Actually I'm not aware of any point in US history where an NSA employee could leak information to foreign journalists and not face charges.
  - alexqgb 13y ago
    Depending on what was leaked, the Whistleblower Protection Act should allow him to do exactly that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act Unfortunately for Snowden, the Act only covers federal employees, not the private subcontractors whose security clearances may expose them to criminal acts, but whose employment status leaves them unable to report them safely.
- easytiger 13y ago
  When exactly was that?
- nemof 13y ago
  The US has only ever been the gold standard to itself, it's a nice story to tell the kids as you tuck them in for the night, but it's just not true.
  - diminoten 13y ago
    The US doesn't ban hate speech at least, so in that respect it's freer than a lot of other countries.
walshemj 13y ago
Yeh right as long as you don't annoy the powers that be it is
Goladus 13y ago
a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA. There's really nothing like Hong Kong in the US-- a New York-sized city with a dramatically different cultural, governmental, and economic history.

rayiner 13y ago

As long as you don't care about the whole democracy thing.

cwp 13y ago
Well, it sounds like their system is the polar opposite of the US: they can't choose their government, but it does what the people want.
- rayiner 13y ago
  It does what a certain segment of the society wants. Government for the professional upper class by the professional upper class.
  - fatjokes 13y ago
    So... exactly like the US?
    - samstave 13y ago
      Minus the police state attempting to interfere into every aspect of an individuals life.
      - jessedhillon 13y ago
        You should really indicate sarcasm if you're going to write something like that.
        likpok 13y ago
        Given the histrionics on HN lately, I'm not sure he's being sarcastic.
- meric 13y ago
  That's what it appears on the outside - The Hong Kong government and Chinese government spend a lot of effort to maintain this image. Take a deeper look and you will see this isn't the case. The government has previously tried to sneak Chinese propaganda into primary schools as well as pass copyright laws that will outlaw (often political) satire and allow governments to sue on behalf of companies(!!). It was only from SOPA style opposition as well as massive street protests (measured in hundreds of thousands of people) these measures haven't passed yet. Source: I was born in Hong Kong.
  - joe_the_user 13y ago
    Yes, but these protest did happen and I'm assuming then the measures were defeated. That is something and one can be at least doubtful that this would happen in the US. And it's not because the US government isn't doing some pretty horrible things, as we can see.
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      Uhh.. wasn't massive popular outcry what got SOPA killed?
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
- Qantourisc 13y ago
  If China cuts pollution, respects human rights, and improves working/live for a lot of people (those are the complains I hear about)it should be a good place. Then the only debatable thing that remains in censorship, and "absolute power corrupts absolutely". It might not be a democracy, but if people are truly happy/content ... why would they riot ?
  - tomkarlo 13y ago
    So if China solves its three biggest, most intractable problems, it'll be a great place to live? No problem.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      No problem, as long as you're not an ethnic or religious minority.
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        You're right, the USA has always been a wonderful place for those folks.
        rayiner 13y ago
        It's a hell of a lot better in the U.S. for these folks now than it is in China now.
        jessaustin 13y ago
        The premise of this thread is that China is going to solve three giant intractable problems. That might take some time. When they're done, will over 40% of our male prison population still be black?
        rayiner 13y ago
        And my point is that even after solving those problems, China will still have a ways to go before it's even crappy at dealing with minorities like the U.S.
- grandalf 13y ago
  We in the US tend to underestimate the power that populations have even if it's not explicitly linked to voting.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
The US is a democracy?
- vaadu 13y ago
  No. On paper it's a Republic. In reality the USA is run by a bunch of self serving politicians and unelected bureaucrats who get their positions from the special interest and big business lobbies. It will only get worse as long as people want security over liberty and elections are decided by money and not voters.

krapp 13y ago

a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA. Define 'free' in this context.

jakobe 13y ago
Maybe freedom to communicate without being subject to government surveillance?
- rayiner 13y ago
  Unless you're a democratic activist: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/eap/187483.htm http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/eap/187483.htm (Section 2(a)). (" Democratic activists claimed central government authorities closely monitored their e-mails and Internet use. In a Netizens Power survey, 33 percent of users of Golden Forum, a popular local Internet community forum, said they had some of their online posts deleted over the past year and almost half indicated this was because their posted content was 'too politically sensitive.'") Also, the system they have in place for surveillance of telecommunications seems exactly the same as the one the U.S. does: "The use of covert surveillance and the interception of telecommunications and postal communications can be granted only to prevent or detect 'serious crime' or protect 'public security.' The law establishes a two-tiered system for granting approval for surveillance activities, under which surveillance of a more intrusive nature requires the approval of a judge, and surveillance of a less intrusive nature requires the approval of a senior law-enforcement official." (Section 1(f)). Indeed, the U.S. system is a bit more stringent, because "surveillance of a less intrusive nature" requires a law-enforcement official to get a FISA warrant (from a court that isn't an Article III court but is composed of Article III judges).
sporkologist 13y ago
I'm guessing, in the 4th amendment sense.

D_Alex 13y ago

Dunno about "free", but what really bothers me is that someone decided to seek asylum from the US. US used to be the gold standard in democracy and justice.

Dewie 13y ago
In the 19th century?
wmil 13y ago
There have been plenty of people over the years who have requested asylum from the US. It's not a new thing. Actually I'm not aware of any point in US history where an NSA employee could leak information to foreign journalists and not face charges.
- alexqgb 13y ago
  Depending on what was leaked, the Whistleblower Protection Act should allow him to do exactly that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act Unfortunately for Snowden, the Act only covers federal employees, not the private subcontractors whose security clearances may expose them to criminal acts, but whose employment status leaves them unable to report them safely.
easytiger 13y ago
When exactly was that?
nemof 13y ago
The US has only ever been the gold standard to itself, it's a nice story to tell the kids as you tuck them in for the night, but it's just not true.
- diminoten 13y ago
  The US doesn't ban hate speech at least, so in that respect it's freer than a lot of other countries.

walshemj 13y ago

Yeh right as long as you don't annoy the powers that be it is

Goladus 13y ago

a special administrative region of the people's republic of china is actually more free than the USA. There's really nothing like Hong Kong in the US-- a New York-sized city with a dramatically different cultural, governmental, and economic history.