7 ms·

Mark my words: by 2041 china will be a freer country than the United States. It is already economically freer in the free economic zones such as Shenzhen.

by cft 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago
Where by "economically free" we include such freedoms as "ability to deploy child labor", "ability to pay workers below subsistence", "ability to create the equivalent of company towns", "ability to dump toxic waste into rivers", "ability to blot out the sun with airborne waste", and "availability of vast pool of rural poor workers". And by "free" we specifically ignore "can be imprisoned indefinitely for belonging to the wrong religion", and "police officers can arrest and sentence you to a year in prison without the involvement of a court or even a prosecutor". Every time someone says something like "China is [or will soon be] freer than the US", what they're really saying is "I don't read, but I'm happy to divide the whole world into two sides: whoever supports my current biases, and whoever doesn't".
- clicks 13y ago
  > Where by "economically free" we include such freedoms as "ability to deploy child labor", "ability to pay workers below subsistence", "ability to create the equivalent of company towns", "ability to dump toxic waste into rivers", "ability to blot out the sun with airborne waste", and "availability of vast pool of rural poor workers". You can't deny that this is indirectly partly due to America's demand for cheap goods that China provides. Look, United States has already passed this stage -- we have had dark spots in our history too, with crimes among the most heinous in world history: slavery, genocide, child labor. We've mostly improved... and I expect China will improve as well as its populace becomes more learned and starts demanding more freedoms. But at any rate. I have one question for you tptacek: don't you agree that the extent of child labor, improper wages, toxic dumps, etc. taking place in China would be considerably less if Americans conscientiously chose to not fund these operations by essentially doing business with them? In other words, isn't America -- and the people of America -- culpable of these crimes that you make note of to a non-zero degree?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Sure. I just think China is much more culpable; they allow these actions as a considered and deliberate matter of public policy. I'm glad we agree that they're essentially criminal actions.
    - gbog 13y ago
      You mean polluting rivers is a deliberate public policy in China? You have some proofs, I hope. If not, your claims are just in the same vein as those a century ago telling the world about how those evil (pagan) Chinese hated babies and dropped them in the bins.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        I can't tell whether you're snarkily agreeing with me or not, because female infanticide is in fact a significant problem in China.
        newnewnew 13y ago
        America kills 20%-30% of its children through abortion, including half of black children. How is this much different?
        verroq 13y ago
        Because people get abortions for reasons other than "the child is the wrong sex".
        lionspaw 13y ago
        source?
        gbog 13y ago
        Well, I'm not agreeing with you and other yellow peril things at all. Was just trying to show you that since the dawn of time the "other" has been considered dangerous, evil, etc. by many people. And you reflect very well this mentality.
- varjag 13y ago
  nod I think every idealist embracing that "corrupt West" and "noble savage" outlook on cultures should spend a year or two living in one of many shitholes of the world. It could bring some perspective.
dear 13y ago
See the downvotes you are getting!
- ryanhuff 13y ago
  It may be because his statement is an unsubstantiated opinion colored by his political views.
pinaceae 13y ago
Mark my words: You're a delusional idiot. Today, not in 2041. Seriously, have you been to China? Have you dealt with their government? TEHRE ARE NO FREE ELECTIONS IN CHINA. You fucking, fucking idiot.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  USA! USA! USA! By any chance?
  - pinaceae 13y ago
    nope, grand empire of austria. and that's not even my heritage, just born here.
- greatergoodguy 13y ago
  Free election is fine when the people know the truth. Not when people are gullible and easily manipulated. Not when people are selfish and think only for themselves. China is a country that thinks about the greater good. I've been to China. It's quite nice.
- cft 13y ago
  Iran has free elections too: just today they chose a new president out of six candidates. The ad-hominem speech that you exhibit has always been characteristic of communists: Lenin was a master of it for one. And that's where US is slowly going...
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    I voted you up, but keep in mind it was 6 candidates acceptable to the existing power structure.
    - ericd 13y ago
      Keep in mind that US elections are generally between 2 candidates acceptable to the existing power structure, with a sideshow of more novel/progressive/interesting candidates who can't win because it's set up to be almost structurally impossible for them to.
alan_cx 13y ago
You are probably correct. Not sure about the date, but in time, China will be the leading free market democracy. What people totally fail to appreciate is the slow long term planning China can do, and no other large country can do that because of the democratic process. If you are out after 8 years, what is the motivation for a 50 year economic plan? As the Chinese move more and more in to capitalism, and its people grow richer, they will want a say, and some power. As that happens, China will slowly feed in democratic mechanisms, as it has capitalist ones. It will have no choice, and it knows that. China will incresingly have more to lose and more international assets to protect, so its military will grow, as will it's navy. As Chinese influence and world investment grows, the likes of the USA will lose power and influence, and grow more an more concerned. As we have seen, that fear and paranoia will lead to more and more loss of freedom and democracy. So as China becomes more like America, America will become more like China is now. The USA needs a long term plan to meet that challenge, and find a working equilibrium. I don't see one or where it will come from. Not thought this through, just floated in to my head, but..... Where might be a better place to host my web site or email? Both the US and China spy on me, that an equal given. But, so far, I dont see non Chinese citizens running scared of the Chinese authorities. Could be totally wrong, but are the Chinese, with allies, harassing any Kim Dotcoms or Assanges? Are they making any one launch massive raids on homes? Cant help feeling that China might be a safer place to host some services. Must be a problem there somewhere. Its an argument to be had though.
SkyMarshal 13y ago
China will never be freer than the US. Even if the US may not be as free as it once was, and may continue becoming less free over time, and China may achieve a larger GDP (hard not to with 4x the US population), the US will never be less free than China.
- djcapelis 13y ago
  Out of curiosity, what leads you to that conclusion? I have faith in certain parts of the US government to resist a decline too far, but what makes you so sure China won't one day decide to pass comprehensive freedom guarantees for their population that rival those present in the future of the US? It certainly doesn't seem terribly likely, but the world will eventually change and so will China. It isn't something I would ever claim couldn't happen.
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    You're right one should never say never, though by the same token one shouldn't assert with absolutely certainty something like China will be freer than the US in 30yrs. I primarily had in mind the relative court systems of the two countries. As long as the Chinese court system is not fully independent and autonomous, has term limits rather than lifetime appointments, and replacement judges are appointed by the CCP, it will always be something of an instrument for the CCP, and I don't see them ever completely relinquishing that power. US Judges are of course appointed by the political party in power at the time (except for lower level ones in elections), but that changes relatively frequently, and once the judges attain their lifetime appointment, all bets are off how their judicial views will evolve over time. Sometimes we get politically partisan results like the 2000 election decision, but other times we get real surprises like Justice Roberts siding with the ACA in a tie-breaker. But a completely independent and equal judiciary branch is the last resort of a free society, and the US has a 200yr+ tradition in that respect. China's court system was only reformed ~40yrs ago, and partially as an instrument of the CCP, rather than as a fully independent and equal branch of the Chinese government.
- jivatmanx 13y ago
  The U.S. is already far behind many European, and a few African countries on freedom of the press, economic freedom, and other rankings. Based on trends, it will also soon exceeded by a few Asian countries such as South Korea. Given that China has copied the same economic and political transition of other Asian countries such as South Korea, but is simply further behind chronologically, please tell be why it's completely inconceivable that China will exceed the U.S. in freedom.

Mark my words: by 2041 china will be a freer country than the United States. It is already economically freer in the free economic zones such as Shenzhen.

by cft 13y ago

Mark my words: by 2041 china will be a freer country than the United States. It is already economically freer in the free economic zones such as Shenzhen.

tptacek 13y ago

Where by "economically free" we include such freedoms as "ability to deploy child labor", "ability to pay workers below subsistence", "ability to create the equivalent of company towns", "ability to dump toxic waste into rivers", "ability to blot out the sun with airborne waste", and "availability of vast pool of rural poor workers". And by "free" we specifically ignore "can be imprisoned indefinitely for belonging to the wrong religion", and "police officers can arrest and sentence you to a year in prison without the involvement of a court or even a prosecutor". Every time someone says something like "China is [or will soon be] freer than the US", what they're really saying is "I don't read, but I'm happy to divide the whole world into two sides: whoever supports my current biases, and whoever doesn't".

clicks 13y ago
> Where by "economically free" we include such freedoms as "ability to deploy child labor", "ability to pay workers below subsistence", "ability to create the equivalent of company towns", "ability to dump toxic waste into rivers", "ability to blot out the sun with airborne waste", and "availability of vast pool of rural poor workers". You can't deny that this is indirectly partly due to America's demand for cheap goods that China provides. Look, United States has already passed this stage -- we have had dark spots in our history too, with crimes among the most heinous in world history: slavery, genocide, child labor. We've mostly improved... and I expect China will improve as well as its populace becomes more learned and starts demanding more freedoms. But at any rate. I have one question for you tptacek: don't you agree that the extent of child labor, improper wages, toxic dumps, etc. taking place in China would be considerably less if Americans conscientiously chose to not fund these operations by essentially doing business with them? In other words, isn't America -- and the people of America -- culpable of these crimes that you make note of to a non-zero degree?
- tptacek 13y ago
  Sure. I just think China is much more culpable; they allow these actions as a considered and deliberate matter of public policy. I'm glad we agree that they're essentially criminal actions.
  - gbog 13y ago
    You mean polluting rivers is a deliberate public policy in China? You have some proofs, I hope. If not, your claims are just in the same vein as those a century ago telling the world about how those evil (pagan) Chinese hated babies and dropped them in the bins.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      I can't tell whether you're snarkily agreeing with me or not, because female infanticide is in fact a significant problem in China.
      - newnewnew 13y ago
        America kills 20%-30% of its children through abortion, including half of black children. How is this much different?
        verroq 13y ago
        Because people get abortions for reasons other than "the child is the wrong sex".
      - lionspaw 13y ago
        source?
      - gbog 13y ago
        Well, I'm not agreeing with you and other yellow peril things at all. Was just trying to show you that since the dawn of time the "other" has been considered dangerous, evil, etc. by many people. And you reflect very well this mentality.
varjag 13y ago
nod I think every idealist embracing that "corrupt West" and "noble savage" outlook on cultures should spend a year or two living in one of many shitholes of the world. It could bring some perspective.

dear 13y ago

See the downvotes you are getting!

ryanhuff 13y ago
It may be because his statement is an unsubstantiated opinion colored by his political views.

pinaceae 13y ago

Mark my words: You're a delusional idiot. Today, not in 2041. Seriously, have you been to China? Have you dealt with their government? TEHRE ARE NO FREE ELECTIONS IN CHINA. You fucking, fucking idiot.

alan_cx 13y ago
USA! USA! USA! By any chance?
- pinaceae 13y ago
  nope, grand empire of austria. and that's not even my heritage, just born here.
greatergoodguy 13y ago
Free election is fine when the people know the truth. Not when people are gullible and easily manipulated. Not when people are selfish and think only for themselves. China is a country that thinks about the greater good. I've been to China. It's quite nice.
cft 13y ago
Iran has free elections too: just today they chose a new president out of six candidates. The ad-hominem speech that you exhibit has always been characteristic of communists: Lenin was a master of it for one. And that's where US is slowly going...
- wavefunction 13y ago
  I voted you up, but keep in mind it was 6 candidates acceptable to the existing power structure.
  - ericd 13y ago
    Keep in mind that US elections are generally between 2 candidates acceptable to the existing power structure, with a sideshow of more novel/progressive/interesting candidates who can't win because it's set up to be almost structurally impossible for them to.

alan_cx 13y ago

You are probably correct. Not sure about the date, but in time, China will be the leading free market democracy. What people totally fail to appreciate is the slow long term planning China can do, and no other large country can do that because of the democratic process. If you are out after 8 years, what is the motivation for a 50 year economic plan? As the Chinese move more and more in to capitalism, and its people grow richer, they will want a say, and some power. As that happens, China will slowly feed in democratic mechanisms, as it has capitalist ones. It will have no choice, and it knows that. China will incresingly have more to lose and more international assets to protect, so its military will grow, as will it's navy. As Chinese influence and world investment grows, the likes of the USA will lose power and influence, and grow more an more concerned. As we have seen, that fear and paranoia will lead to more and more loss of freedom and democracy. So as China becomes more like America, America will become more like China is now. The USA needs a long term plan to meet that challenge, and find a working equilibrium. I don't see one or where it will come from. Not thought this through, just floated in to my head, but..... Where might be a better place to host my web site or email? Both the US and China spy on me, that an equal given. But, so far, I dont see non Chinese citizens running scared of the Chinese authorities. Could be totally wrong, but are the Chinese, with allies, harassing any Kim Dotcoms or Assanges? Are they making any one launch massive raids on homes? Cant help feeling that China might be a safer place to host some services. Must be a problem there somewhere. Its an argument to be had though.

SkyMarshal 13y ago

China will never be freer than the US. Even if the US may not be as free as it once was, and may continue becoming less free over time, and China may achieve a larger GDP (hard not to with 4x the US population), the US will never be less free than China.

djcapelis 13y ago
Out of curiosity, what leads you to that conclusion? I have faith in certain parts of the US government to resist a decline too far, but what makes you so sure China won't one day decide to pass comprehensive freedom guarantees for their population that rival those present in the future of the US? It certainly doesn't seem terribly likely, but the world will eventually change and so will China. It isn't something I would ever claim couldn't happen.
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  You're right one should never say never, though by the same token one shouldn't assert with absolutely certainty something like China will be freer than the US in 30yrs. I primarily had in mind the relative court systems of the two countries. As long as the Chinese court system is not fully independent and autonomous, has term limits rather than lifetime appointments, and replacement judges are appointed by the CCP, it will always be something of an instrument for the CCP, and I don't see them ever completely relinquishing that power. US Judges are of course appointed by the political party in power at the time (except for lower level ones in elections), but that changes relatively frequently, and once the judges attain their lifetime appointment, all bets are off how their judicial views will evolve over time. Sometimes we get politically partisan results like the 2000 election decision, but other times we get real surprises like Justice Roberts siding with the ACA in a tie-breaker. But a completely independent and equal judiciary branch is the last resort of a free society, and the US has a 200yr+ tradition in that respect. China's court system was only reformed ~40yrs ago, and partially as an instrument of the CCP, rather than as a fully independent and equal branch of the Chinese government.
jivatmanx 13y ago
The U.S. is already far behind many European, and a few African countries on freedom of the press, economic freedom, and other rankings. Based on trends, it will also soon exceeded by a few Asian countries such as South Korea. Given that China has copied the same economic and political transition of other Asian countries such as South Korea, but is simply further behind chronologically, please tell be why it's completely inconceivable that China will exceed the U.S. in freedom.