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Terrorism is bad. Tax cheating is a serous loss of revenue. Online privacy is a much more abstract concern for citizens than having their entire office building

Terrorism is bad. Tax cheating is a serous loss of revenue. Online privacy is a much more abstract concern for citizens than having their entire office building blown up or even a few tens of billions of annual tax revenue being lost. You know how people complain about the DMV? That's because they don't have to wait in line as long at their bank. It's the same thing with the IRS and Big Data, when a government agency doesn't use the latest technology, they can rightfully be accused of being antiquated. It just so happens that people are much more supportive of shorter DMV lines than they are of paying sales tax on Amazon purchases -- go figure. Furthermore, if government uses big data to catch polluters, that good. But if government uses big data to catch someone planning a bombing, that's bad?

josh2600 13y ago
This is an absurdly reductive argument. No one is saying the governments use of Big Data is bad except in the circumstances where our government sees fit to hide its usage or utility even when it directly impacts its citizenry. It is not the use of modern technology or even the goals, which many on HN will admit are admirable. It is about the path used to reach the end just as much as it is about the end. I believe that we have very smart law enforcement officials who don't need to routinely violate the privacy of Americans to do their jobs.
university 13y ago
That recaptured loss of revenue will only be used to fund the military and further oppress the people. There are entire families on the streets and cities like Detroit are crumbling, yet tax payer money is siphoned into more prisons and spy technology.
- glurgh 13y ago
  Isn't the logical conclusion of this (factually unsupported) argument that we should just stop paying and collecting taxes? You might as well give up on having an organized society if your criteria are things like 'no tax cent should be spent on something I don't like'.
  - adventured 13y ago
    No, that isn't the logical conclusion at all. The logical conclusion is that we need to cut the military in half expenditure wise (saving $340+ billion per year instantly, and cutting our budget deficit in half instantly, while still leaving a massive budget for the military). We need to close 9 out of 10 military bases around the world, perhaps more. End Homeland Security and the TSA. Strictly enforce privacy laws, including the 4th amendment, such that anybody in the government that violates them does hard prison time. Cut the espionage budget ($80+ billion) substantially, including all of the budget allocated to illegal domestic spying. Pass new restrictions on the ability of the executive branch to wage undeclared war (ie without congressional approval), both in the style of what we're doing now in Syria and the more traditional war in Iraq. We should also simplify the tax code, simultaneously wiping out a lot of tax fraud by ending 99% of all loopholes and deductions, and slashing the IRS in half, saving tens of billions per year in tax compliance costs. We should also, obviously, end the failed war on drugs, and end the mass prison system. The policy of holding in prison millions of political prisoners should be immediately stopped, bringing the extremely violent 'war on drugs' assault on liberty by the government from 1980 until now, to an end. This war of power and greed, costs hundreds of billions of dollars per year in government expenditures, lost lives, lost productivity, prison costs, and the destroyed futures of those held captive as political prisoners (many to be enslaved for labor in corporate prisoners). Not to mention the tens of thousands of lives it ends around the world every year. We currently spend over $100 billion just to keep 2.2 million people in prison. Your conclusion at the end presents a false choice. Simple black and white example: if you don't like violent gestapo politics, you might as well give up on all organized society (you can actually insert any government action, which proves your position to be filled with holes). The parent never said "no cent should be spent on something I don't like."
    - glurgh 13y ago
      The parent said that any additional revenue recovered from uncollected taxes will necessarily be spent on oppressing people implied there is no point collecting it. I wasn't starting a debate on how we should spend tax revenue, just a comment that this sort of statement is inherently silly.

josh2600 13y ago

This is an absurdly reductive argument. No one is saying the governments use of Big Data is bad except in the circumstances where our government sees fit to hide its usage or utility even when it directly impacts its citizenry. It is not the use of modern technology or even the goals, which many on HN will admit are admirable. It is about the path used to reach the end just as much as it is about the end. I believe that we have very smart law enforcement officials who don't need to routinely violate the privacy of Americans to do their jobs.

university 13y ago

That recaptured loss of revenue will only be used to fund the military and further oppress the people. There are entire families on the streets and cities like Detroit are crumbling, yet tax payer money is siphoned into more prisons and spy technology.

glurgh 13y ago
Isn't the logical conclusion of this (factually unsupported) argument that we should just stop paying and collecting taxes? You might as well give up on having an organized society if your criteria are things like 'no tax cent should be spent on something I don't like'.
- adventured 13y ago
  No, that isn't the logical conclusion at all. The logical conclusion is that we need to cut the military in half expenditure wise (saving $340+ billion per year instantly, and cutting our budget deficit in half instantly, while still leaving a massive budget for the military). We need to close 9 out of 10 military bases around the world, perhaps more. End Homeland Security and the TSA. Strictly enforce privacy laws, including the 4th amendment, such that anybody in the government that violates them does hard prison time. Cut the espionage budget ($80+ billion) substantially, including all of the budget allocated to illegal domestic spying. Pass new restrictions on the ability of the executive branch to wage undeclared war (ie without congressional approval), both in the style of what we're doing now in Syria and the more traditional war in Iraq. We should also simplify the tax code, simultaneously wiping out a lot of tax fraud by ending 99% of all loopholes and deductions, and slashing the IRS in half, saving tens of billions per year in tax compliance costs. We should also, obviously, end the failed war on drugs, and end the mass prison system. The policy of holding in prison millions of political prisoners should be immediately stopped, bringing the extremely violent 'war on drugs' assault on liberty by the government from 1980 until now, to an end. This war of power and greed, costs hundreds of billions of dollars per year in government expenditures, lost lives, lost productivity, prison costs, and the destroyed futures of those held captive as political prisoners (many to be enslaved for labor in corporate prisoners). Not to mention the tens of thousands of lives it ends around the world every year. We currently spend over $100 billion just to keep 2.2 million people in prison. Your conclusion at the end presents a false choice. Simple black and white example: if you don't like violent gestapo politics, you might as well give up on all organized society (you can actually insert any government action, which proves your position to be filled with holes). The parent never said "no cent should be spent on something I don't like."
  - glurgh 13y ago
    The parent said that any additional revenue recovered from uncollected taxes will necessarily be spent on oppressing people implied there is no point collecting it. I wasn't starting a debate on how we should spend tax revenue, just a comment that this sort of statement is inherently silly.