5 ms·

Clojure revolts me. It is the most explicit to date abandonment of the age-old Lispers' Dream, which was "Lisp All The Way Down." Clojure is the antithesis of

Clojure revolts me. It is the most explicit to date abandonment of the age-old Lispers' Dream, which was "Lisp All The Way Down." Clojure is the antithesis of the Lisp Machine. Rather than a crystalline pyramid of comprehensible mutually-interlocking concepts, behind every Clojure primitive there lurks Black Magic. The Clojure user who is missing some routine or other will run crying to Java for help, rather than implementing the feature himself correctly - that is, as a natural part of the entire language, built on the same concepts. Clojure pisses on everything I've ever loved about Lisp. It rejects even what little consistency and intellectual rigor there is to be found in an abomination like Common Lisp. Clojure is the False Lisp, which Reeketh of the Cube Farm. I don't care if everybody really is more productive in Clojure than in Common Lisp. The latter is not my standard of comparison (Symbolics Genera, the state of the art, is. Or, if you want something that is distinctly inferior but is currently available on the market: Mathematica.) Clojure is the gutted corpse of a dream. I am tired of this abomination being hailed as the future of Lisp. Users of real Lisps, such as myself, will keep hoping, dreaming, and working on systems which do not betray the original virtues of the language.

polos 18y ago
I fully understand you -- and I don't understand you at all. If you got all of the revolutionary Lisp ideas, you don't have to worry about the rest -- currently I'm more or less forced to use C++ instead of CL (which is still my favorite language) -- but this doesn't prevent my mind to still 'think' in Lisp. If you have some really revolutionary idea, and you want to break it through the history grown walls, you always need to introduce it in homeopathic manner -- but since your new idea is really, really much more ingenious than all of the previous ones, it will finally and actually replace the more limited ones. But this takes time. If you limit yourself to think either black or white, you will never win...
anc2020 18y ago
As a genuine interest, please could you clear up what is meant by "Lisp All The Way Down."? I've implemented my own Lisp interpreter in Scheme before, and I looked at the interpreter from McCarthy's original paper, but in both of these, the interpreter still required some language (albeit one with list-processing procedures) to begin with. My experience would be that there's nothing special with Lisp in this regard, just that its _really_ easy to parse, but I still hear this claim often enough - am I missing something here? And to answer your post, I'd say that Clojure does give you what you need - it gives you the axioms, it gives you defmacro - the rest is history. All those other library functions you can think of in a more abstract sense ("George's problem"), and in the end these should be machine code no matter which HLL they were originally written in. The Lisp way has always been very dynamic - you can change things, even when they're orbiting Mars, but Clojure is functional, you generally don't change things. So in that sense, Clojure is not a true Lisp, but only because it chooses a different set of trade-offs, and if you don't like that then its fine, but it doesn't make Clojure evil, just different.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  > please could you clear up what is meant by "Lisp All The Way Down." "Lisp All The Way Down" is when you can select any part of the system - and the full source (written in the same basic concepts as the rest of the system, including the program you are writing) of the element will pop up. Any changes you make will take effect immediately and in real time. We had this in 1985. Why can't we have it now? > it doesn't make Clojure evil, just different The language is being promoted as the long-awaited, Messiah-like successor to Common Lisp. That is the main source of my annoyance.
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    "The language is being promoted as the long-awaited, Messiah-like successor to Common Lisp." sigh Rich Hickey explains what he thinks are the good parts of his language, but I would hardly say he has a messianic complex about it. A lot of people (myself included) like it because it combines interesting ideas with the pragmatism of fitting into the popular Java ecosystem. Perhaps a desire to have everything converted to a single language is more indicative of messianic thinking? Common Lisp is a wonderful language, certainly worth learning. But it somehow seems to induce a bunker mentality in its users.
jimbokun 18y ago
"Lisp All The Way Down." But why is this a desirable dream? It seems to suggest no other languages or technologies have any merit, except Lisp. Unix and C are brilliant pieces of work, and Lisp's hang up of refusing to work well with them really set Lisp back. Compared to, say, Perl, Python and Ruby which really embraced Unix concepts (pipes, scripting C programs, etc.). I happen to think the JVM is a nice piece of work, too, and I'm happy to see a Lisp that works seamlessly with it and benefits from its strengths. Cooperation and interoperability are good things. "which Reeketh of the Cube Farm." Cube Farm coders deserve good programming languages, too.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  > Unix and C are brilliant pieces of work I beg to differ: http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/handbook.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/handbook.html > pipes, scripting C programs, etc. None of these things are necessary when every piece of information on your machine lives in a Lisp world image. As it should. And would, if the machines we are now using were the descendants of real computers, rather than of early-1980s children's toys.
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    I'm sure you saw this coming but: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html "None of these things are necessary when every piece of information on your machine lives in a Lisp world image." http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2004/06/boil-ocean.html http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2004/06/boil-ocean.html
    - asciilifeform 18y ago
      "Worse is Worse." http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=24807 http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=24807 And your last link would be applicable, save for the "ocean" actually having been "boiled" in this manner. The Lisp Machine existed. You cannot un-create it. It proves that all of the supposedly impossible or impractical pipe dreams of the Unix haters are in fact possible.
weavejester 18y ago
Please tell me this is a parody. A programming language is a tool, not a religion.
- asciilifeform 18y ago
  Clearly you have never met a tool which afterwards made you regard all other supposedly similar tools as stone knives and bearskins. Perhaps this day is still in store for you. For the sake of your career as a programmer (assuming this is your trade), you'd better hope not.
  - weavejester 18y ago
    You're correct that I haven't come across such a tool. But I have also programmed in Lisp, and whilst I like it a lot, I don't consider it the pariah of programming languages as you seem to do. What makes you believe Lisp is so superior to other classes of programming language? For instance, what makes a Lisp superior to a stack-based language like Forth or Factor?
    - sharkbrainguy 18y ago
      This isn't meant to refute your argument or insult anyone I just that pariah probably doesn't mean what you think it means and you might like to know. From Wiktionary: 1. An outcast 2. A demographic group, species, or community that is generally despised. 3. Someone in exile 4. A member of one of the oppressed social castes in India.
      - weavejester 18y ago
        Dammit, what was the word I was thinking about then? Thanks for correcting me :)
        gojomo 18y ago
        Probably paragon. Maybe pinnacle or nonpariel.
Hexstream 18y ago
And I thought I was an obnoxious Lisp fanatic...
mahmud 18y ago
Sir, Attached is my official Smug Lisp Weenie card. I have no further use for it. Please pass it on to someone who is worthier than I am. Regards.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
zelenik524 18y ago
This Genera stuff looks like shit. I think someone had to say it.

polos 18y ago

I fully understand you -- and I don't understand you at all. If you got all of the revolutionary Lisp ideas, you don't have to worry about the rest -- currently I'm more or less forced to use C++ instead of CL (which is still my favorite language) -- but this doesn't prevent my mind to still 'think' in Lisp. If you have some really revolutionary idea, and you want to break it through the history grown walls, you always need to introduce it in homeopathic manner -- but since your new idea is really, really much more ingenious than all of the previous ones, it will finally and actually replace the more limited ones. But this takes time. If you limit yourself to think either black or white, you will never win...

anc2020 18y ago

As a genuine interest, please could you clear up what is meant by "Lisp All The Way Down."? I've implemented my own Lisp interpreter in Scheme before, and I looked at the interpreter from McCarthy's original paper, but in both of these, the interpreter still required some language (albeit one with list-processing procedures) to begin with. My experience would be that there's nothing special with Lisp in this regard, just that its _really_ easy to parse, but I still hear this claim often enough - am I missing something here? And to answer your post, I'd say that Clojure does give you what you need - it gives you the axioms, it gives you defmacro - the rest is history. All those other library functions you can think of in a more abstract sense ("George's problem"), and in the end these should be machine code no matter which HLL they were originally written in. The Lisp way has always been very dynamic - you can change things, even when they're orbiting Mars, but Clojure is functional, you generally don't change things. So in that sense, Clojure is not a true Lisp, but only because it chooses a different set of trade-offs, and if you don't like that then its fine, but it doesn't make Clojure evil, just different.

asciilifeform 18y ago
> please could you clear up what is meant by "Lisp All The Way Down." "Lisp All The Way Down" is when you can select any part of the system - and the full source (written in the same basic concepts as the rest of the system, including the program you are writing) of the element will pop up. Any changes you make will take effect immediately and in real time. We had this in 1985. Why can't we have it now? > it doesn't make Clojure evil, just different The language is being promoted as the long-awaited, Messiah-like successor to Common Lisp. That is the main source of my annoyance.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "The language is being promoted as the long-awaited, Messiah-like successor to Common Lisp." sigh Rich Hickey explains what he thinks are the good parts of his language, but I would hardly say he has a messianic complex about it. A lot of people (myself included) like it because it combines interesting ideas with the pragmatism of fitting into the popular Java ecosystem. Perhaps a desire to have everything converted to a single language is more indicative of messianic thinking? Common Lisp is a wonderful language, certainly worth learning. But it somehow seems to induce a bunker mentality in its users.

jimbokun 18y ago

"Lisp All The Way Down." But why is this a desirable dream? It seems to suggest no other languages or technologies have any merit, except Lisp. Unix and C are brilliant pieces of work, and Lisp's hang up of refusing to work well with them really set Lisp back. Compared to, say, Perl, Python and Ruby which really embraced Unix concepts (pipes, scripting C programs, etc.). I happen to think the JVM is a nice piece of work, too, and I'm happy to see a Lisp that works seamlessly with it and benefits from its strengths. Cooperation and interoperability are good things. "which Reeketh of the Cube Farm." Cube Farm coders deserve good programming languages, too.

asciilifeform 18y ago
> Unix and C are brilliant pieces of work I beg to differ: http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/handbook.html http://www.art.net/~hopkins/Don/unix-haters/handbook.html > pipes, scripting C programs, etc. None of these things are necessary when every piece of information on your machine lives in a Lisp world image. As it should. And would, if the machines we are now using were the descendants of real computers, rather than of early-1980s children's toys.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  I'm sure you saw this coming but: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html "None of these things are necessary when every piece of information on your machine lives in a Lisp world image." http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2004/06/boil-ocean.html http://www.bobcongdon.net/blog/2004/06/boil-ocean.html
  - asciilifeform 18y ago
    "Worse is Worse." http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=24807 http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=24807 And your last link would be applicable, save for the "ocean" actually having been "boiled" in this manner. The Lisp Machine existed. You cannot un-create it. It proves that all of the supposedly impossible or impractical pipe dreams of the Unix haters are in fact possible.

weavejester 18y ago

Please tell me this is a parody. A programming language is a tool, not a religion.

asciilifeform 18y ago
Clearly you have never met a tool which afterwards made you regard all other supposedly similar tools as stone knives and bearskins. Perhaps this day is still in store for you. For the sake of your career as a programmer (assuming this is your trade), you'd better hope not.
- weavejester 18y ago
  You're correct that I haven't come across such a tool. But I have also programmed in Lisp, and whilst I like it a lot, I don't consider it the pariah of programming languages as you seem to do. What makes you believe Lisp is so superior to other classes of programming language? For instance, what makes a Lisp superior to a stack-based language like Forth or Factor?
  - sharkbrainguy 18y ago
    This isn't meant to refute your argument or insult anyone I just that pariah probably doesn't mean what you think it means and you might like to know. From Wiktionary: 1. An outcast 2. A demographic group, species, or community that is generally despised. 3. Someone in exile 4. A member of one of the oppressed social castes in India.
    - weavejester 18y ago
      Dammit, what was the word I was thinking about then? Thanks for correcting me :)
      - gojomo 18y ago
        Probably paragon. Maybe pinnacle or nonpariel.

Hexstream 18y ago

And I thought I was an obnoxious Lisp fanatic...

mahmud 18y ago

Sir, Attached is my official Smug Lisp Weenie card. I have no further use for it. Please pass it on to someone who is worthier than I am. Regards.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

zelenik524 18y ago

This Genera stuff looks like shit. I think someone had to say it.