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There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or incon
by Cass 13y ago
There's nothing surprising about the German tolerance of the US military bases, considering that they do nothing whatsoever to interfere with our lives or inconvenience us in any way, but do provide quite a lot of jobs. These are mostly medical or training facilities, many of them operated jointly by American and German forces, not some occupying force that's intent on overrunning our government or controlling the citizenry.
As far as public opinion goes, this is a complete non-issue, and I strongly suspect that if public opinion turned so far as to make it an issue, the US would withdraw their troops before entering into a war with a powerful western nation that would almost inevitably turn into another world war. This is really not what I'd call an occupation.
- onli 13y agoIsn't the US already (slowly) withdrawing/reducing the stationed troops? Besides, germany wouldn't really have a chance. The few nuclear rockets we control would probably not be ready in time. The USA could just bomb germany down, like it was planned in case of a war with the UDSSR.
- TallGuyShort 13y agoGermany itself isn't the only reason I doubt the US would attack Germany. If the US attacked Germany, I'm sure most of Europe would side with Germany at this point. So it would be akin to attacking all of Europe. Not something that's worth a single NSA leak, I'm sure.
- onli 13y agoOf course not worth it. Think i just minded the "powerful".
- pekk 13y agoWhy is everyone in this discussion assuming that the US would be attacking Germany if not for the awesome deterrent power of the EU? Seriously?
- TallGuyShort 13y agoWhat in my post led you to believe I think there's even a remote chance of that happening?
- Dylan16807 13y agoMotive and deterrence are orthogonal. Nobody said anything about motive because there is no realistic motive. These 'assumptions' you're seeing are wholly in your own head. There is, however, real deterrence, and it's interesting to explore its shape.
- digitalengineer 13y agoSounds crazy but the US has plans to IN-f*cking-VADE Germany's neighbour, the Netherlands if they were ever to do a crazy thing, like arrest US soldiers for war crimes and bring them to the International Tribunal. ..."The Hague Invasion Act,[3][4] since such freeing of US citizens by force might only be possible through an invasion of The Hague, Netherlands, the seat of several international criminal courts and the seat of the Dutch government." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pro...
- arethuza 13y agoCountries have all kinds of crazy plans in place in case crazy things happen. e.g. The UK had plans involving "shooting guards at American nuclear weapon stores in England if they proved uncooperative" http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/in-the-event-of-a-russian-nuclear-attack-call-the-aa-710672.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/in-the-eve...
- digitalengineer 13y agoCorrect. But the International Tribunal isn't exactly 'a crazy thing*. Would it be 'crazy' to uphold (Coalition) troops to the same standard as 'the bad guys'?
- Swizec 13y agoExcept for the tiny fact that you attack Germany, you attack EU. And that's pretty much a world war right there. Nobody wants another world war, don't be silly. M.A.D. still exists by the way. It's still why all major nations are at peace and why the EU gave so much flak to the US a few years ago when Bush wanted to install a nuclear shield. He later had to back down or serious stuff would've happened. (afaik) Also, according to wikipedia, Europe has 150 to 240 nuclear warheads. Plenty enough to destroy all US major cities.
- sliverstorm 13y agoNobody wants another world war, don't be silly. But... but... what about childish power fantasies and world conquest?
- fosap 13y agoThat's how the prequells started.
- gamblor956 13y agoOh no! The EU! A political body which requires unanimity to make any decision! We tremble in fear... In all seriousness though, the EU does not currently extend to defense; it is currently only a political and economic union. France and Germany have proposed extending the EU to include common defense, but as of today it had not yet been ratified by either the European Council or the member states. See, e.g., the Treaty of Lisbon. (Note that the Treaty of Lisbon technically removes the unanimity requirement in place of a "double majority" threshold (meaning >55% of vote from >65% of countries) beginning in 2014.)
- dsuth 13y agoAnd of course, war has no impact on politics and tightly interwoven economies...
- nraynaud 13y agogood news, because there has been military help treaties between neighboring countries a long time before EU was really standing up. Fun factoid: France lets Switzerland use part of its territory to defend Geneva. And also let it fly its plane over FR territory because CH is so small that it's not practical for pilots training.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- fwenzel 13y agoSlowly? They have been closing US military facilities in Germany for decades.
- onli 13y agoSo it is slowly. If it would be fast, all of them would be closed by now.
- tsotha 13y agoBut there wouldn't be any reason for the US to attack Germany. If they want us out we'll leave. Were I president we'd leave whether or not they wanted us to.
- flyinRyan 13y agoIf the US attacked Germany, the rest of Europe would instantly go to war with the US. Russia would likely attack the US as well (as good a time as any) and who knows what China might do. The US spends the most on military but considering they haven't won a fight since WWII (which would have ended the same with or without them) I don't see that they're that good.
- rz2k 13y agoIt is also worth pointing out that the occupation of Germany ended in 1955. The US military has a policy of being forward deployed around the globe, so it negotiates agreements with may countries around the world to station troops in strategic locations. The military bases are there as a result of legal agreements and treaties, not because they would forcibly resist any attempts to expel them, and there is no sentiment in the US whatsoever to change that policy and begin fighting to establish bases in friendly countries. For a parallel, look to Uzbekistan where the US operated an airbase after 9/11. In 2005, there was a massacre by Uzbek government forces, and the US said there ought to be an international investigation. Uzbekistan replied by rescinding the agreement for use of the airbase, and the US left. No shots were fired.
- arrrg 13y agoWell … to be honest I consider 1990 the year in which occupation ended and Germany got its full sovereignty back (with the 2+4 talks and reunification). Technically that doesn’t matter at all because all through the cold war West-German and US interests were very tightly aligned (and when interests diverged a bit the US did give West-Germany enough freedom, though they hardly ever diverged much). I mean, West-Berlin was most certainly occupied until 1990. It’s just that that was an occupation hardly anyone had a problem with.
- chalst 13y agoThe US has bases in countries all over the world as part of military agreements. From 1955, W. Germany has them as a NATO member vs. the Warsaw Pact countries. They're not occupations unless the armies establish control over the countries. The US still has some of its largest overseas bases in Germany; see http://militarybases.com/overseas/germany/ http://militarybases.com/overseas/germany/
- lostlogin 13y agoAhh, so it's forward deployment, not some modern version of colonialism. It should be noted that US bases aren't always loved or even well tolerated. See Japan, Iraq, Afghanistan et al.
- tekromancr 13y agoWORLD WAR III: This time, the Germans are the good guys.
- Fuxy 13y agoThat would be really Ironic.
- tekromancr 13y agoI can just imagine the shooter videogame from 2110 That has you blasting away at charicatureized evil Americans.
- arethuza 13y agoI think it would be rather good fun to write Tom Clancy style sprawling techno-thriller where it was the USA who were the bad guys. [NB This is not because I have anything against the USA, just that I've got rather bored over the years with Russia/China being the enemy of choice for authors].
- tekromancr 13y agoSpec Ops: The Line used that to great effect as a way to humanize the thousands of people you kill over tge course of the game.
- flyinRyan 13y agoKeep telling yourself that but I've never seen a German base in the USA.