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A Selection Of Thoughts From Actual Women (regarding GoGaRuCo)

66 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

kentf 18y ago
A great impartial commentary on this entire situation.
- jgrahamc 18y ago
  How is commentary from women (subgroup of entire population) who chose to comment (selection bias) impartial?
peregrine 18y ago
Again _why blows the discussion out of the water, sets it down and makes everyone in the room feel like a child for his foresight and wisdom. Thanks _why.
- petercooper 18y ago
  He has foresight and wisdom in spades but this is just an objective list of quotes :)
  - eru 18y ago
    What use is a good quote, when you can't change it? Really: Selecting the 'objective information' is still judgement.
    - petercooper 18y ago
      I meant his choice of quotes is objective. The quotes themselves are not objective. That said, he seems to have quoted pretty much all of the women who've said anything about it. A great move, but not exactly collating the Bible.
- tvon 18y ago
  Laying it on a bit thick there, don't ya think?
  - grandalf 18y ago
    did you watch the video of the shoes presenter from gogaruco? I suspect the poster is that guy.
jimbokun 18y ago
"Titillation is certainly good marketing, but frankly, if you can’t find a way to make your presentation interesting that doesn’t include thonged asses, your presentation isn’t interesting." I found this the best summary.
- tannerburson 18y ago
  I think it goes just a bit further than this, but not a lot. He tried to play off of the "rock star" persona that surrounds the Rails community in an over the top and humorous way. He failed, miserably. Those he was satirizing thought it was great, and those who should have appreciated the satire were offended. It showed a complete lapse of judgment, and frankly professional taste. But the amount of hype this whole drama has received is yet another mark against the Rails community. Maybe Zed was more right than everyone thought.
jgrahamc 18y ago
How about a thought from an actual man? Me. I've flipped through the slides and if I'd been in that presentation I would have had a very low opinion of the speaker. Not because I've got a problem with pornography, but because his presentation shows a complete lack of judgment. If you are making a public presentation you need to realize that your standards are not shared by everyone in the audience so you need to tailor your presentation to them. There were probably plenty of people happy to see softcore pornography that day, some people who wished it had been hardcore, and others who felt uncomfortable. There's not an obvious male/female mapping to those categories. Suppose it hadn't been pornography, but had been slides making fun of Christianity, or slides showing graphic depictions of surgery, or jokes aimed at a minority based on skin color. You can imagine the audience splitting into groups that were happy with that, unhappy and indifferent. But why split your audience? They were there to hear about CouchDB, not to understand the speaker's personal beliefs or preferences. In addition to having a low opinion of the speaker, I would have been uncomfortable with the images knowing that others in the audience were likely offended and didn't say anything. And lastly, his metaphor is broken. So CouchDB performs like a porn star? Good to know. To me performing like a porn star means pretending to do something and not doing the real thing. I guess CouchDB is some sort of phony database that looks good at first glance but is just faking it.
- axod 18y ago
  OTOH, It's often nice to see people speak who just don't care if everyone likes what they have to say. I find it quite funny how this is apparently only offensive to women for some unbeknown reason. I think that in itself belittles women.
  - jgrahamc 18y ago
    Agreed. But I get the distinct impression that this speaker figured that everyone was going to like his pornography analogy and imagery.
    - axod 18y ago
      He should have based it on military - drawings of tanks, ships, missiles etc. Most people seem completely fine with killing people. But sex? oh my god think of the children!!!
jdminhbg 18y ago
The one thing I do have to say is: > What about a presentation about writing code on deadline: “Delivering Like a Birth Mom.” Or how about graphic images of up-close breastfeeding in a talk titled “Nursing Your Projects Along.” I don't think this would upset many male attendees, nor would it upset me. That doesn't necessarily mean that "Perform like a pornstar" was ok, but this analogy doesn't really hold. I think most guys would find the birthing/nursing metaphors funny, and I don't think you'd see any complaints afterward. Unless, of course, it was a guy who gave the talk.
- axod 18y ago
  I agree. The only difference would be that more people know about porn, than have kids and know about birthing/breast feeding. If you could be pretty sure most people knew about it, I think either would be fine. Maybe an odd choice raising a few eyebrows though.
- marcusbooster 18y ago
  I think she's alluding that a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust, "does she really have to do that here?" Hence the big Facebook controversy a few months back - is it appropriate to post breast-feeding pics on the site? I don't have an answer to that, but I understand how I might feel uncomfortable if I had to watch a presentation about breast-feeding for 30 minutes when I was expecting something on CouchDB. Swap that out for something potentially more inflammatory and you get the disaster we see now.
  - jwr 18y ago
    These things are very culture-dependent. In Europe, most people don't care much about breast feeding in public, and don't see why Americans seem to raise such a fuss about Janet Jackson's breast. Which means you don't want to use these themes to illustrate your presentation, unless you are deliberately trying to annoy or offend part of your audience.
  - axod 18y ago
    >> "a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust" Seriously? In US I assume? I'm in the UK and have never had such an impression. Old people seem to sometimes get offended at such things, but certainly not the general population.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
access_denied 18y ago
Do you that one speech from Joe Spolsky? Where he shows _one_ slide with a scarcely dressed women on it to make a point about attention? If I remember correctly he held that speech on a prior Rails Con. I guess that was an "inspiration" for Matt, wasn't it?
mattmcknight 18y ago
I get why the presentation/presenter was ineffective for some audiences. I get that there are various assorted prudes that need to be marketed to. I don't get why everyone has to have an opinion about it. Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial? Watched a race car driver endorse a domain name registrar? Sure it sucks that marketing and sex are intertwined. Read this: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04/spent-sex-evolution-and-consumer-behavior.html http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04... Then can we please shut up and get back to coding?
- diN0bot 18y ago
  What do car shows and beer commercials have to do with intellectual discourse? yeah, base advertising works. on the other hand, if going to work was like being in a car commercial i doubt we'd produce anything constructive.
  - diN0bot 18y ago
    in fact, here's a good quote for that: > "Victoria Wang: DHH’s attitude seems to say that the more we lower ourselves to the most base level of marketing scum in the name of entertainment, the better, even if at the end of the day there are no more women, or anyone worth knowing, in the room. It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again."
    - plinkplonk 18y ago
      "It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again" Don't. It is a free world out there and there's a lot of competing frameworks and languages. I seriously doubt any framework or language designer sets out to have "more women in the room" and neither should they. DHH made his code available for anyone else to use if they wanted to. That doesn't mean he abdicated his values or thought process to to what the rest of the world dictates. He is not an elected leader, who you expect to at least pretend to share your values. He happens to occupy a leadership position because he contributes code. Contributing code shouldn't have to imply political correctness in thought and speech. I think all these complainants should really walk away from Rails (vs blog about it or whine about it day after day after day ) if they are so offended that DHH (or other people) don't share their prejudices on how the world should think. Just. Walk. Away. And how many people will do that (as compared to running a torches and pitchforks type campaign on blogs and twitter)? Not many I would think. And how much difference would it make to Rails if they did walk away? I have no idea though I think, maybe not much. All this looks increasingly like a storm in a teacup.
knieveltech 18y ago
You know, the Drupal community is always looking for talented developers and to date I've yet to see any pr0n embedded in a presentation I've attended. Just sayin...
diN0bot 18y ago
this is an interesting one. i didn't realize that people voted without seeing the content. i guess they were just voting for topics or titles? > "I voted for it, actually, because CouchDB is one of those things that’s the new hotness and I haven’t had a chance to play with it, and besides, he wouldn’t actually put porn in the slides. Right? […] I’m a minority in this community. I know that, and generally I can ignore it and go along thinking it’s a meritocracy of ideas and code. Then I encounter a woman’s thonged rear on the screen at a conference, 20 feet tall, and I remember, oh yeah, people like me don’t belong here. To most of these men around me, I am, at best, an oddity, and at worst, a sexual target. I feel a little less safe."
- Tichy 18y ago
  There was no porn in the slides. (Edit: to be more specific, the "thong" picture on the front page was the most explicit one of the slides, and that looks more like an ad out of a women's magazine, maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism.).
  - cjbos 18y ago
    I wasn't at the presentation, but it was reported in the original posts that 5 slides were removed from the web version of the slideshow that were more explicit (Although not reported how explicit, nor has this been verified by anyone who attended.)
  - Ardit20 18y ago
    maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism How is presenting underwear for women on a woman sexism?
    - Tichy 18y ago
      The offending image of the presentation was a female torso with underwear, that looked like a typical advertisement for underwear. If you say that is sexism, how can you at the same time say the same picture in a women's magazine is not sexism? I just wanted to point out that women consume that kind of images on a daily basis and never seem to freak out about it.
yummyfajitas 18y ago
I've noticed a very unpleasant trend in some of the complaints (both here and in similar discussions). A couple of examples: Ruby (and Rails in particular) loves the rock star image...It’s also a significant barrier to adoption for people who aren’t already a part of this culture, and don’t find it appealing. As a young women in tech, ... I would be extremely uncomfortable in a classroom of thirty young men and me if an instructor used sex as a metaphor for teaching. In short, "I'm a girl, I don't like the existing culture, it should change to accommodate me." I could make a similar statement about the culture I'm currently working in: As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change. Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the height of arrogance. I don't demand that academic culture change, I just fit in as best I can. Sooner or later I'll probably move on to a place where I fit in better. [edit: I've been refreshing the page, this post seems to be getting a lot of both upmods and downmods. I'd be curious to hear responses.]
- jibiki 18y ago
  > As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change. I've heard this sentiment expressed on a couple occasions ^^ There's nothing wrong with trying to change to world, or even just your corner of it. It's important not to be too annoying about it, but that's not really an issue here (you can always just ignore the debate and keep on hacking.)
  - yummyfajitas 18y ago
    I don't object if you want to change the world for the better. I object when you want to change the world for your personal benefit. A good argument: "The number of great female hackers is much larger than the number of macho rockstar hackers. To get more good hackers, we should change our culture." [edit: I'm not sure if the good argument is true, but imagine it is for the sake of argument.] A bad argument: "I was offended, the culture should change to accommodate people like me."
axod 18y ago
This reminds me of the Janet Jackson superbowl debacle. The attitude to sex in the US is just bizarre.
jwr 18y ago
I really don't see why people make this into a gender thing. Because there were more women in the photographs than men? The speaker showed very poor taste. Such illustrations are totally inappropriate for a public presentation. But this has nothing to do with gender, so I don't see why women were more offended than men.
bena 18y ago
I think next year, a woman should give a presentation at a Rails/Ruby conference that had nothing but slides of penises for visual aids (or muscled men in seductive poses and scant clothing). I'm sure a metaphor could be worked in that would fit a stack of penises. Then see what the community has to say about that presentation. Because I think that's the biggest problem here, they aren't considering what it would've been like if the presentation had contained something that extremely marginalized them in the same way this woman felt. The community is saying "Whatever, boobs are fine. Fuck professionalism.", but they are only considering it in the context of what they saw and what they are comfortable with. And from what I've seen, the Ruby community is championed by a bunch of self-important douchebags. And because of them, I'll probably never become interested enough to learn Ruby. It's that huge a turn off, I don't want to associated with that. Level of success/fame/money is unimportant because by that same metric, Bill Gates is an awesome guy and Microsoft one of the coolest companies around.
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  The original presentation was not "nothing but slides of vaginas for visual aids". It was a normal tech presentation, but with LOLCAT FAIL replaced by ugly porn stars, and EPIC WIN replaced by pretty porn stars. If the same presentation were made, but with LOLCAT FAIL -> ugly man in seductive pose, EPIC WIN -> muscled man, I doubt many men would be offended. I certainly would not be. In my opinion, women (at least the ones who complain about such things) are simply less tolerant of edgy material than most hackers. Also, the original presentation showed no full nudity. I don't think your comparison to a "stack of penises" is apt.
  - bena 18y ago
    But it's not really about the degree of nudity, but the degree of uncomfortableness felt by the audience. That's what DHH, the presenter, and you are getting wrong. You are arguing about the wrong thing. It's not so much about the content of the slides, but how that content made that lone woman feel in a room full of men.
    - 18y ago
Tichy 18y ago
Could one problem with the discussion be that people talk about different things? a) was the presentation very tasteful and/or funny? (most would probably agree that it wasn't) b) was it an unforgivable affront against women? (some think no, and end up defending the presentation even though they might not even have liked it much). I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome.
- Ardit20 18y ago
  I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome. I am not a woman, but some of the comments on that site made me understand. Perhaps you would too, Imagine the conference was attended by only 6 guys and all the others were females, the one giving the presentation is female, and the pictures on the presentation are of men depicted sexually. Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females. Now imagine that this minority situation continues in the work place and these men are seen as a strange oddity by the females. It wouldn't feel nice to have a presentation which sort of harnesses the feelings of these females.
  - Tichy 18y ago
    "Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females." With what justification do you add that to the story? And if that would have been the case, wouldn't that be the problem, rather than the pictures? I can imagine a minority situation feeling strange and uncomfortable, but it seems a bit unfair to blame the men for that - as a man, the only way to tilt the gender balance would be to not attend the conference.
    - Ardit20 18y ago
      I don't think the controversy is about the gender balance. From my understanding it seems to be about antagonising these females. I added the inferiority thing to show that these females might feel they are undermined and might perhaps feel some sense of discrimination. From my understanding basically it is a power possession issue. They might feel that they are not on equal standing with their male counterparts and that such presentation only serve to legitimise and create a culture of harnessing such perceived or real inequality by further creating a sense that this presentation is only aimed at guys as most of the pictures were of females. I mean how would you feel if all those pictures were of men rather than women, it would just be weird.
huherto 18y ago
I do not think the presentation was particularly offensive; but he tried to be funny and failed. He should have apologized and move on. But he didn't and that is what caused all this. Just poor judgment followed by poor damage control.
yef 18y ago
Why is there so much drama in the Ruby community?
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- octane 18y ago
  Because it's a scene.
jnovek 18y ago
Where are all the comments about evolution, biology and women as programmers? This group of HN commenters really bothers me -- the armchair biologists who declare that women keep away from programming and startups because evolution rather than socialization tells them to. I have a pretty strong opinion that runs counter to that one, so I want to see a response from this group! Here we have a lot of women talking about how macho-ism and the locker room mentality makes them less comfortable. How does this fit in with the question, "Why are there so few women developing software?"
- axod 18y ago
  >> "Why are there so few women developing software?" You don't need permission to develop software you know... Just go ahead and do it. If you get good enough at it and make some cool stuff, people will hire you.
  - jnovek 18y ago
    My question isn't clear -- a better question is, "Why do so few women want to develop software?" I think it has a lot to do with the software-development culture. And I think that the comments that these women made back up that position. Software development -- especially in startups -- has developed a "macho" culture. And that's a shame because it excludes.
    - axod 18y ago
      I disagree completely. I think women don't want to develop software because they in general like doing other things. The sexes are hard wired totally differently. How many girls spend their 13-16 years hunched over a home computer hacking away? Personally, I don't think there's any issue with the culture. It's a matter of what girls like doing, and what boys like doing. At early ages. We shouldn't try to 'fix' things that aren't broken. My daughter loves dancing dressing up and singing. My son likes playing cars and power rangers. Those aren't learnt things, they're instincts people are born with.
      - 18y ago
ahoyhere 18y ago
The root of the problem? Broken funny bone. This is something that sounded funny in the head of the presenter, but he didn't have the comedic chops to carry it off. Just like that Giles Bowkett "lynch him" brouhaha. Matt is a good man, but a very bad comedian. I left a lengthier comment on _why's post. I get away with off-color humor in my talks in the "Ruby Community" all the time and nobody's bitched. Maybe it's cuz I've got breasts! Or, more likely, it's because I know how to gauge the audience & carry it off. Alas. The true problem will never get addressed.
asb 18y ago
Danny O'Brien has picked out a great quote on this issue: > "It’s not about whether it’s porn or not porn. Those commenting on people’s supposed hypersensitivity to nudity or bodies are completely missing the point. It’s about presenting women as ‘the other,’ not ‘us.’ It would have been just as offensive if all the women shown were domineering mothers in aprons, shaking their fingers and threatening with rolling pins." http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/ http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/
octane 18y ago
Honestly I don't care if women are offended by this or not, but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. Sigh.
- jamesbritt 18y ago
  " ... but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. " Why? Matt's not you, doesn't speak for you, doesn't claim to represent you. Or would any reasonable adult think that. One person did something, others have their reactions. Let them sort it out.
  - octane 18y ago
    You've never sat in an audience and felt uncomfortable/embarrassed when the presenter or speaker started making a fool of himself? What the fuck are you, some kind of robot? You're full of shit.
    - jamesbritt 18y ago
      "[A]wfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer" is quite different from "felt uncomfortable/embarrassed when the presenter or speaker started making a fool of himself". I can feel basic empathy for someone's situation without it being "embarrassing to me as a man." And thanks for the gratuitous vulgarity, it really added to the discussion.
vinutheraj 18y ago
WOW it seems really surprising to me that some pr0n images on some presentation has got 124 comments from people. This doesn't seem good for HN. I think it will be better to talk about some technical issue than this. Anybody downvoting this, can you just clearly explain to me why what I have stated needs downvoting ( or why I am wrong ... please !! )

66 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

kentf 18y ago

A great impartial commentary on this entire situation.

jgrahamc 18y ago
How is commentary from women (subgroup of entire population) who chose to comment (selection bias) impartial?

peregrine 18y ago

Again _why blows the discussion out of the water, sets it down and makes everyone in the room feel like a child for his foresight and wisdom. Thanks _why.

petercooper 18y ago
He has foresight and wisdom in spades but this is just an objective list of quotes :)
- eru 18y ago
  What use is a good quote, when you can't change it? Really: Selecting the 'objective information' is still judgement.
  - petercooper 18y ago
    I meant his choice of quotes is objective. The quotes themselves are not objective. That said, he seems to have quoted pretty much all of the women who've said anything about it. A great move, but not exactly collating the Bible.
tvon 18y ago
Laying it on a bit thick there, don't ya think?
- grandalf 18y ago
  did you watch the video of the shoes presenter from gogaruco? I suspect the poster is that guy.

jimbokun 18y ago

"Titillation is certainly good marketing, but frankly, if you can’t find a way to make your presentation interesting that doesn’t include thonged asses, your presentation isn’t interesting." I found this the best summary.

tannerburson 18y ago
I think it goes just a bit further than this, but not a lot. He tried to play off of the "rock star" persona that surrounds the Rails community in an over the top and humorous way. He failed, miserably. Those he was satirizing thought it was great, and those who should have appreciated the satire were offended. It showed a complete lapse of judgment, and frankly professional taste. But the amount of hype this whole drama has received is yet another mark against the Rails community. Maybe Zed was more right than everyone thought.

jgrahamc 18y ago

How about a thought from an actual man? Me. I've flipped through the slides and if I'd been in that presentation I would have had a very low opinion of the speaker. Not because I've got a problem with pornography, but because his presentation shows a complete lack of judgment. If you are making a public presentation you need to realize that your standards are not shared by everyone in the audience so you need to tailor your presentation to them. There were probably plenty of people happy to see softcore pornography that day, some people who wished it had been hardcore, and others who felt uncomfortable. There's not an obvious male/female mapping to those categories. Suppose it hadn't been pornography, but had been slides making fun of Christianity, or slides showing graphic depictions of surgery, or jokes aimed at a minority based on skin color. You can imagine the audience splitting into groups that were happy with that, unhappy and indifferent. But why split your audience? They were there to hear about CouchDB, not to understand the speaker's personal beliefs or preferences. In addition to having a low opinion of the speaker, I would have been uncomfortable with the images knowing that others in the audience were likely offended and didn't say anything. And lastly, his metaphor is broken. So CouchDB performs like a porn star? Good to know. To me performing like a porn star means pretending to do something and not doing the real thing. I guess CouchDB is some sort of phony database that looks good at first glance but is just faking it.

axod 18y ago
OTOH, It's often nice to see people speak who just don't care if everyone likes what they have to say. I find it quite funny how this is apparently only offensive to women for some unbeknown reason. I think that in itself belittles women.
- jgrahamc 18y ago
  Agreed. But I get the distinct impression that this speaker figured that everyone was going to like his pornography analogy and imagery.
  - axod 18y ago
    He should have based it on military - drawings of tanks, ships, missiles etc. Most people seem completely fine with killing people. But sex? oh my god think of the children!!!

jdminhbg 18y ago

The one thing I do have to say is: > What about a presentation about writing code on deadline: “Delivering Like a Birth Mom.” Or how about graphic images of up-close breastfeeding in a talk titled “Nursing Your Projects Along.” I don't think this would upset many male attendees, nor would it upset me. That doesn't necessarily mean that "Perform like a pornstar" was ok, but this analogy doesn't really hold. I think most guys would find the birthing/nursing metaphors funny, and I don't think you'd see any complaints afterward. Unless, of course, it was a guy who gave the talk.

axod 18y ago
I agree. The only difference would be that more people know about porn, than have kids and know about birthing/breast feeding. If you could be pretty sure most people knew about it, I think either would be fine. Maybe an odd choice raising a few eyebrows though.
marcusbooster 18y ago
I think she's alluding that a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust, "does she really have to do that here?" Hence the big Facebook controversy a few months back - is it appropriate to post breast-feeding pics on the site? I don't have an answer to that, but I understand how I might feel uncomfortable if I had to watch a presentation about breast-feeding for 30 minutes when I was expecting something on CouchDB. Swap that out for something potentially more inflammatory and you get the disaster we see now.
- jwr 18y ago
  These things are very culture-dependent. In Europe, most people don't care much about breast feeding in public, and don't see why Americans seem to raise such a fuss about Janet Jackson's breast. Which means you don't want to use these themes to illustrate your presentation, unless you are deliberately trying to annoy or offend part of your audience.
- axod 18y ago
  >> "a lot of guys, when they see a mother breast feeding in public will roll their eyes in disgust" Seriously? In US I assume? I'm in the UK and have never had such an impression. Old people seem to sometimes get offended at such things, but certainly not the general population.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

access_denied 18y ago

Do you that one speech from Joe Spolsky? Where he shows _one_ slide with a scarcely dressed women on it to make a point about attention? If I remember correctly he held that speech on a prior Rails Con. I guess that was an "inspiration" for Matt, wasn't it?

mattmcknight 18y ago

I get why the presentation/presenter was ineffective for some audiences. I get that there are various assorted prudes that need to be marketed to. I don't get why everyone has to have an opinion about it. Has no one heard the term "booth babe" before? Been to car show? Turned on the television and seen a beer commercial? Watched a race car driver endorse a domain name registrar? Sure it sucks that marketing and sex are intertwined. Read this: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04/spent-sex-evolution-and-consumer-behavior.html http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/04... Then can we please shut up and get back to coding?

diN0bot 18y ago
What do car shows and beer commercials have to do with intellectual discourse? yeah, base advertising works. on the other hand, if going to work was like being in a car commercial i doubt we'd produce anything constructive.
- diN0bot 18y ago
  in fact, here's a good quote for that: > "Victoria Wang: DHH’s attitude seems to say that the more we lower ourselves to the most base level of marketing scum in the name of entertainment, the better, even if at the end of the day there are no more women, or anyone worth knowing, in the room. It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again."
  - plinkplonk 18y ago
    "It kind of makes me want to never touch Rails code again" Don't. It is a free world out there and there's a lot of competing frameworks and languages. I seriously doubt any framework or language designer sets out to have "more women in the room" and neither should they. DHH made his code available for anyone else to use if they wanted to. That doesn't mean he abdicated his values or thought process to to what the rest of the world dictates. He is not an elected leader, who you expect to at least pretend to share your values. He happens to occupy a leadership position because he contributes code. Contributing code shouldn't have to imply political correctness in thought and speech. I think all these complainants should really walk away from Rails (vs blog about it or whine about it day after day after day ) if they are so offended that DHH (or other people) don't share their prejudices on how the world should think. Just. Walk. Away. And how many people will do that (as compared to running a torches and pitchforks type campaign on blogs and twitter)? Not many I would think. And how much difference would it make to Rails if they did walk away? I have no idea though I think, maybe not much. All this looks increasingly like a storm in a teacup.

knieveltech 18y ago

You know, the Drupal community is always looking for talented developers and to date I've yet to see any pr0n embedded in a presentation I've attended. Just sayin...

diN0bot 18y ago

this is an interesting one. i didn't realize that people voted without seeing the content. i guess they were just voting for topics or titles? > "I voted for it, actually, because CouchDB is one of those things that’s the new hotness and I haven’t had a chance to play with it, and besides, he wouldn’t actually put porn in the slides. Right? […] I’m a minority in this community. I know that, and generally I can ignore it and go along thinking it’s a meritocracy of ideas and code. Then I encounter a woman’s thonged rear on the screen at a conference, 20 feet tall, and I remember, oh yeah, people like me don’t belong here. To most of these men around me, I am, at best, an oddity, and at worst, a sexual target. I feel a little less safe."

Tichy 18y ago
There was no porn in the slides. (Edit: to be more specific, the "thong" picture on the front page was the most explicit one of the slides, and that looks more like an ad out of a women's magazine, maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism.).
- cjbos 18y ago
  I wasn't at the presentation, but it was reported in the original posts that 5 slides were removed from the web version of the slideshow that were more explicit (Although not reported how explicit, nor has this been verified by anyone who attended.)
- Ardit20 18y ago
  maybe for underwear or perfume. Might be a better place to look for roots of sexism How is presenting underwear for women on a woman sexism?
  - Tichy 18y ago
    The offending image of the presentation was a female torso with underwear, that looked like a typical advertisement for underwear. If you say that is sexism, how can you at the same time say the same picture in a women's magazine is not sexism? I just wanted to point out that women consume that kind of images on a daily basis and never seem to freak out about it.

yummyfajitas 18y ago

I've noticed a very unpleasant trend in some of the complaints (both here and in similar discussions). A couple of examples: Ruby (and Rails in particular) loves the rock star image...It’s also a significant barrier to adoption for people who aren’t already a part of this culture, and don’t find it appealing. As a young women in tech, ... I would be extremely uncomfortable in a classroom of thirty young men and me if an instructor used sex as a metaphor for teaching. In short, "I'm a girl, I don't like the existing culture, it should change to accommodate me." I could make a similar statement about the culture I'm currently working in: As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change. Most communities have a preexisting culture, and you are not a good fit for all of them. But demanding that a culture change to be more palatable for you is the height of arrogance. I don't demand that academic culture change, I just fit in as best I can. Sooner or later I'll probably move on to a place where I fit in better. [edit: I've been refreshing the page, this post seems to be getting a lot of both upmods and downmods. I'd be curious to hear responses.]

jibiki 18y ago
> As a macho libertarian hacker type, I would be extremely uncomfortable in an extreme liberal, PC-gone-wild culture which glorifies east coast pseudointellectual preening. Therefore, the culture of modern universities should change. I've heard this sentiment expressed on a couple occasions ^^ There's nothing wrong with trying to change to world, or even just your corner of it. It's important not to be too annoying about it, but that's not really an issue here (you can always just ignore the debate and keep on hacking.)
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  I don't object if you want to change the world for the better. I object when you want to change the world for your personal benefit. A good argument: "The number of great female hackers is much larger than the number of macho rockstar hackers. To get more good hackers, we should change our culture." [edit: I'm not sure if the good argument is true, but imagine it is for the sake of argument.] A bad argument: "I was offended, the culture should change to accommodate people like me."

axod 18y ago

This reminds me of the Janet Jackson superbowl debacle. The attitude to sex in the US is just bizarre.

jwr 18y ago

I really don't see why people make this into a gender thing. Because there were more women in the photographs than men? The speaker showed very poor taste. Such illustrations are totally inappropriate for a public presentation. But this has nothing to do with gender, so I don't see why women were more offended than men.

bena 18y ago

I think next year, a woman should give a presentation at a Rails/Ruby conference that had nothing but slides of penises for visual aids (or muscled men in seductive poses and scant clothing). I'm sure a metaphor could be worked in that would fit a stack of penises. Then see what the community has to say about that presentation. Because I think that's the biggest problem here, they aren't considering what it would've been like if the presentation had contained something that extremely marginalized them in the same way this woman felt. The community is saying "Whatever, boobs are fine. Fuck professionalism.", but they are only considering it in the context of what they saw and what they are comfortable with. And from what I've seen, the Ruby community is championed by a bunch of self-important douchebags. And because of them, I'll probably never become interested enough to learn Ruby. It's that huge a turn off, I don't want to associated with that. Level of success/fame/money is unimportant because by that same metric, Bill Gates is an awesome guy and Microsoft one of the coolest companies around.

yummyfajitas 18y ago
The original presentation was not "nothing but slides of vaginas for visual aids". It was a normal tech presentation, but with LOLCAT FAIL replaced by ugly porn stars, and EPIC WIN replaced by pretty porn stars. If the same presentation were made, but with LOLCAT FAIL -> ugly man in seductive pose, EPIC WIN -> muscled man, I doubt many men would be offended. I certainly would not be. In my opinion, women (at least the ones who complain about such things) are simply less tolerant of edgy material than most hackers. Also, the original presentation showed no full nudity. I don't think your comparison to a "stack of penises" is apt.
- bena 18y ago
  But it's not really about the degree of nudity, but the degree of uncomfortableness felt by the audience. That's what DHH, the presenter, and you are getting wrong. You are arguing about the wrong thing. It's not so much about the content of the slides, but how that content made that lone woman feel in a room full of men.
  - 18y ago

Tichy 18y ago

Could one problem with the discussion be that people talk about different things? a) was the presentation very tasteful and/or funny? (most would probably agree that it wasn't) b) was it an unforgivable affront against women? (some think no, and end up defending the presentation even though they might not even have liked it much). I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome.

Ardit20 18y ago
I must admit I have troubles understanding some things, like the thong picture making a woman feel unwelcome. I am not a woman, but some of the comments on that site made me understand. Perhaps you would too, Imagine the conference was attended by only 6 guys and all the others were females, the one giving the presentation is female, and the pictures on the presentation are of men depicted sexually. Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females. Now imagine that this minority situation continues in the work place and these men are seen as a strange oddity by the females. It wouldn't feel nice to have a presentation which sort of harnesses the feelings of these females.
- Tichy 18y ago
  "Now imagine that some of these females might have the opinion that males inherently are inferior intellectually than females." With what justification do you add that to the story? And if that would have been the case, wouldn't that be the problem, rather than the pictures? I can imagine a minority situation feeling strange and uncomfortable, but it seems a bit unfair to blame the men for that - as a man, the only way to tilt the gender balance would be to not attend the conference.
  - Ardit20 18y ago
    I don't think the controversy is about the gender balance. From my understanding it seems to be about antagonising these females. I added the inferiority thing to show that these females might feel they are undermined and might perhaps feel some sense of discrimination. From my understanding basically it is a power possession issue. They might feel that they are not on equal standing with their male counterparts and that such presentation only serve to legitimise and create a culture of harnessing such perceived or real inequality by further creating a sense that this presentation is only aimed at guys as most of the pictures were of females. I mean how would you feel if all those pictures were of men rather than women, it would just be weird.

huherto 18y ago

I do not think the presentation was particularly offensive; but he tried to be funny and failed. He should have apologized and move on. But he didn't and that is what caused all this. Just poor judgment followed by poor damage control.

yef 18y ago

Why is there so much drama in the Ruby community?

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
octane 18y ago
Because it's a scene.

jnovek 18y ago

Where are all the comments about evolution, biology and women as programmers? This group of HN commenters really bothers me -- the armchair biologists who declare that women keep away from programming and startups because evolution rather than socialization tells them to. I have a pretty strong opinion that runs counter to that one, so I want to see a response from this group! Here we have a lot of women talking about how macho-ism and the locker room mentality makes them less comfortable. How does this fit in with the question, "Why are there so few women developing software?"

axod 18y ago
>> "Why are there so few women developing software?" You don't need permission to develop software you know... Just go ahead and do it. If you get good enough at it and make some cool stuff, people will hire you.
- jnovek 18y ago
  My question isn't clear -- a better question is, "Why do so few women want to develop software?" I think it has a lot to do with the software-development culture. And I think that the comments that these women made back up that position. Software development -- especially in startups -- has developed a "macho" culture. And that's a shame because it excludes.
  - axod 18y ago
    I disagree completely. I think women don't want to develop software because they in general like doing other things. The sexes are hard wired totally differently. How many girls spend their 13-16 years hunched over a home computer hacking away? Personally, I don't think there's any issue with the culture. It's a matter of what girls like doing, and what boys like doing. At early ages. We shouldn't try to 'fix' things that aren't broken. My daughter loves dancing dressing up and singing. My son likes playing cars and power rangers. Those aren't learnt things, they're instincts people are born with.
    - 18y ago

ahoyhere 18y ago

The root of the problem? Broken funny bone. This is something that sounded funny in the head of the presenter, but he didn't have the comedic chops to carry it off. Just like that Giles Bowkett "lynch him" brouhaha. Matt is a good man, but a very bad comedian. I left a lengthier comment on _why's post. I get away with off-color humor in my talks in the "Ruby Community" all the time and nobody's bitched. Maybe it's cuz I've got breasts! Or, more likely, it's because I know how to gauge the audience & carry it off. Alas. The true problem will never get addressed.

asb 18y ago

Danny O'Brien has picked out a great quote on this issue: > "It’s not about whether it’s porn or not porn. Those commenting on people’s supposed hypersensitivity to nudity or bodies are completely missing the point. It’s about presenting women as ‘the other,’ not ‘us.’ It would have been just as offensive if all the women shown were domineering mothers in aprons, shaking their fingers and threatening with rolling pins." http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/ http://www.oblomovka.com/wp/2009/04/28/how-to-be-edgy/

octane 18y ago

Honestly I don't care if women are offended by this or not, but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. Sigh.

jamesbritt 18y ago
" ... but it's awfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer. " Why? Matt's not you, doesn't speak for you, doesn't claim to represent you. Or would any reasonable adult think that. One person did something, others have their reactions. Let them sort it out.
- octane 18y ago
  You've never sat in an audience and felt uncomfortable/embarrassed when the presenter or speaker started making a fool of himself? What the fuck are you, some kind of robot? You're full of shit.
  - jamesbritt 18y ago
    "[A]wfully embarrassing to me as a man, and as a computer programmer" is quite different from "felt uncomfortable/embarrassed when the presenter or speaker started making a fool of himself". I can feel basic empathy for someone's situation without it being "embarrassing to me as a man." And thanks for the gratuitous vulgarity, it really added to the discussion.

vinutheraj 18y ago

WOW it seems really surprising to me that some pr0n images on some presentation has got 124 comments from people. This doesn't seem good for HN. I think it will be better to talk about some technical issue than this. Anybody downvoting this, can you just clearly explain to me why what I have stated needs downvoting ( or why I am wrong ... please !! )