4 ms·

When I was growing up as a Quaker, I was raised to see such people as heroes, and I still do. These people took their beliefs and their convictions and chose t

When I was growing up as a Quaker, I was raised to see such people as heroes, and I still do. These people took their beliefs and their convictions and chose to live life on their terms, not bowing to the authorities of the government. They knew what the potential punishments were. They used the trial to make their case. They made it. Like many other heroes of great magnitude they have sacrificed much and now stand as political prisoners. But in addition to making their own cases, they have exposed something deeper about our system of government. We are all in their debt. I shall listen to Jack Warshaw's "No Time for Love" (as a tribute to political prisoners) tonight, both his version[1] and the Moving Hearts version[2] (which was published first interestingly). [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT8p1XhTc2Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT8p1XhTc2Y [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTgD-QveQrU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTgD-QveQrU

acjohnson55 13y ago
"But in addition to making their own cases, they have exposed something deeper about our system of government. We are all in their debt." It was hard for me to put a name on what in this story resonates with me. And I think that quote really captures it. What they did was illegal, of course, but there's something about the response of the government that really exposes the paranoid insecurity of the security state. We're told that our wars on Terror and Drugs are going well and that the ends justify the means, and yet this story seriously destabilizes for me the feeling that there's much else besides security theater and draconian punishment. The government just seems to be making up the rules as it goes, and if you don't like those rules, God help you. It's infuriating. We could be so much better as a country.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  > We're told that ... the ends justify the means There are no ends, life is just a sequence of means. Really, whatever objectives somebody have, they'll change before anybody get even near them. Nobody ever uses that phrase to achieve something good. No exceptions, it doesn't matter if you think this time it's different, or that this one is a honest person.
jivatmanx 13y ago
Indeed, Quakers, who opposed slavery before anyone else and were probably the group most instrumental in ending it. (Unlike Southern Baptism - formed out of a desire to theologically justify slavery) Also - Smedley butler
mikecane 13y ago
On the other side, Alvin C. York. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York#World_War_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York#World_War_I
amirmc 13y ago
"They knew what the potential punishments were." I completely disagree with this. They could reasonably have expected to be charged with trespass and vandalism but to be labelled as terrorists is ludicrous. I doubt they even expected to get as far as they did (they had to hang around and sing songs before they were finally arrested).
- winfred 13y ago
  "They could reasonably have expected to be charged with trespass and vandalism but to be labelled as terrorists is ludicrous" No, it was very reasonable to expect exactly this to happen. They were offered pleas, but choose not to take these pleas. The US justice system always retaliates against defendants that are unwilling to take pleas. I'm not saying that it is morally right, but I am saying that the defendants knew this very well and willfully choose this over other options. As a result of this you now know about them.
  - lotharbot 13y ago
    My expectation (as a lifelong pacifist) is that, when someone gets arrested as part of a peace protest of this nature, they will try to face maximum charges and then plead guilty to them. That's part of the protest -- taking responsibility for your actions, and using that to highlight the "injustice" of war and the government's actions in relation to war. Usually the maximum charges are things that match the protesters' perceptions of themselves -- trespassing, vandalism, things like that. "Terrorism" is a completely unexpected form of government retaliation.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      Not plead guilty. You want to turn the trial into an exposure of what is going on. The trial is part of the protest too. Don't count that out. But yes, the jail term is a part of the protest, with that I am entirely in agreement. > "Terrorism" is a completely unexpected form of government retaliation. I don't think you can look at the way various other anti-logging protesters and the like have been treated, and the way terrorist watch lists have been assembled, or even talk with activists who were active in the 1960's and 1970's and not expect this.

acjohnson55 13y ago

"But in addition to making their own cases, they have exposed something deeper about our system of government. We are all in their debt." It was hard for me to put a name on what in this story resonates with me. And I think that quote really captures it. What they did was illegal, of course, but there's something about the response of the government that really exposes the paranoid insecurity of the security state. We're told that our wars on Terror and Drugs are going well and that the ends justify the means, and yet this story seriously destabilizes for me the feeling that there's much else besides security theater and draconian punishment. The government just seems to be making up the rules as it goes, and if you don't like those rules, God help you. It's infuriating. We could be so much better as a country.

marcosdumay 13y ago
> We're told that ... the ends justify the means There are no ends, life is just a sequence of means. Really, whatever objectives somebody have, they'll change before anybody get even near them. Nobody ever uses that phrase to achieve something good. No exceptions, it doesn't matter if you think this time it's different, or that this one is a honest person.

jivatmanx 13y ago

Indeed, Quakers, who opposed slavery before anyone else and were probably the group most instrumental in ending it. (Unlike Southern Baptism - formed out of a desire to theologically justify slavery) Also - Smedley butler

mikecane 13y ago

On the other side, Alvin C. York. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York#World_War_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York#World_War_I

amirmc 13y ago

"They knew what the potential punishments were." I completely disagree with this. They could reasonably have expected to be charged with trespass and vandalism but to be labelled as terrorists is ludicrous. I doubt they even expected to get as far as they did (they had to hang around and sing songs before they were finally arrested).

winfred 13y ago
"They could reasonably have expected to be charged with trespass and vandalism but to be labelled as terrorists is ludicrous" No, it was very reasonable to expect exactly this to happen. They were offered pleas, but choose not to take these pleas. The US justice system always retaliates against defendants that are unwilling to take pleas. I'm not saying that it is morally right, but I am saying that the defendants knew this very well and willfully choose this over other options. As a result of this you now know about them.
- lotharbot 13y ago
  My expectation (as a lifelong pacifist) is that, when someone gets arrested as part of a peace protest of this nature, they will try to face maximum charges and then plead guilty to them. That's part of the protest -- taking responsibility for your actions, and using that to highlight the "injustice" of war and the government's actions in relation to war. Usually the maximum charges are things that match the protesters' perceptions of themselves -- trespassing, vandalism, things like that. "Terrorism" is a completely unexpected form of government retaliation.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    Not plead guilty. You want to turn the trial into an exposure of what is going on. The trial is part of the protest too. Don't count that out. But yes, the jail term is a part of the protest, with that I am entirely in agreement. > "Terrorism" is a completely unexpected form of government retaliation. I don't think you can look at the way various other anti-logging protesters and the like have been treated, and the way terrorist watch lists have been assembled, or even talk with activists who were active in the 1960's and 1970's and not expect this.