8 ms·

ECHELON was used for industrial espionage (European Commission report)

151 points by _ntka 13y ago

contingencies 13y ago
When discussing government signals intelligence programs with the average person, the industrial espionage point is often a very good one with which to sway skeptics who consider individual privacy concerns and totalitarianism-potential too ephemeral to take as serious threats. It is unfortunate, though, that the subject is generally, as within the EU report document, framed within a nationalist perspective - nationalism itself being something of a time-honoured trap for the same class of victim. My most favoured quote of late is Einstein's description of nationalism: an infantile disease; the measles of humanity. Our generation's challenge is to conquer this.
- fchollet 13y ago
  Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. And in the case at hand, it doesn't help that the US government seems to consider it fair game to have all data of foreign users of US web services handed out to them, in secret and without the users having a say in this.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    > Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. Why, exactly? Without nationalism how can there be any tradition of local governance? And without that how can local culture survive? Or is your point hat local culture shouldn't survive and that the Hopi child should be governed by the same cultural norms as the Swedish?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - Vivtek 13y ago
      This is incoherent, unless you equate culture with nation. Nationalism says that people in your nation are special, that, in effect, rights pertain to them that are not granted to other nations - it is incompatible with morality. On your Hopi/Swedish point, the question here is whether the Hopi child deserves government by the same standards and access to the same opportunities as the Swede. Yes. Yes, she does.
      - dnautics 13y ago
        it's an oppressive point that every human requires the same sort of government to achieve maximal justice. It is, the very argument that the US has proffered to engage in interventionary invasions of the Maghreb - "we're bringing them democracy".
        vidarh 13y ago
        He did not say that they require the same sort of government. He said they deserve a government of the same standards and access to the same opportunities. That's vastly different.
        einhverfr 13y ago
        I brought up the Hopi very specifically because of their religious practices.[1] Children among the Hopi are raised to believe literally that the Kacina dancers are literally gods from somewhere else who have come to work miracles on the village. Once every 3 years, the children ages 7-9 are gathered together for induction into the religious community of the village. This induction involves ritual beating and betrayal (showing that what they have been taught all their lives is a carefully constructed lie), and thus induction into the religious community is also a somewhat temporary and violent initiation into atheism as well. However this tearing down of belief in relatively visceral and violent ways is considered necessary for passing on the Hopi understanding of religion. The problem I have with this sort of international humanism is that it leaves no room for cultures like that. I mean Think of the Children!!! They are being abused!!! and so we go out of our way to impose our own culture on everyone else in the way of proving that nationalism and ethnocentricity must go. [1] see Gill, Sam D. 1996 "Disenchantment: A Religious Abduction." In Readings in Ritual Studies, edited by Ronald L. Grimes, 230-39. Upper Saddle River, N.J.: Prentice Hall.
    - vidarh 13y ago
      Nation states are a relatively recent concept and even more so as an identify factor for individuals, and local and national culture did quite well without it. Go back to the 18th century, and most states were much more fluid, driven by changes through inheritance, wars, and indeed the fact that a substantial number of todays large, influential nation states simply did not exist yet, or where the states existed in a substantially different form. Nationalism itself did not come to prominence until the latter half of the 18th century (the term itself was not even coined until this time), and a lot of the modern nation states that people came to identify with were artificial constructions created largely as a result of the gradual evolution of local governance and culture coupled with the outgrowth of popular political involvement and the growing prominence of national media where culture started becoming more uniform across what we recognise as modern states often because of limitations of language. Nationalism is not a requisite for local governance or local culture to survive at all - both pre-dated nationalism for millennia.
      - einhverfr 13y ago
        But nationalism of that sort is just a modern example of a much older pattern, which stressed the exclusivity in membership of one population to one specific culture. The Greeks spoke of non-greeks as Barbaros, from which we get our word "barbarian" via the Latin borrowing. The Roman writers saw themselves as bringing the light of Roman culture to the barbarians (read Tacitus sometime), and so forth. This is found elsewhere too. The earliest Sanscrit writings refer to the early Sanscrit speakers as "Noble" (Sanscrit 'Aryan') which is one of the reasons folks assume (wrongly I think) that the caste system was set up by the invaders to privilege themselves over the local population.[1] The "nation state" is a somewhat new model to some extent. The older models were more fluid, but the idea of loyalty to one's nation (not necessarily the same as one's state) can be found going back into antiquity, and you can find similar patterns just about everywhere, whether early Ireland, Scandinavia, the Goths during their time in the Roman Empire, India, China, and so forth. The difference is that traditionally loyalty to one's nation was separate to loyalty to one's government. You can see in racial stereotypes much the same thing going on actually. The old division is between people who "act and talk like we do" vs "everyone else." [1] Compare the colors of the Varnas to the colors of the Gunas and the colors of the classes in the Scandinavian poem Rigsthula and you see that the three colors in common are white, red, and black which represent spirituality, war, and labor of the earth respectively. Also note that if you compare functions to the labels of classes in Solonic Athens, the bottom three match-- Hippeis to Ksatria, Vassyia to Zeugmatis, and Sudra to Thetis), while the designations of the upper three match between India and Ireland. There are also long-standing spacial associations with these which can be found across Ireland, India, Scandinavia, and the Greco-Roman world. On this I conclude that the 5-fold division of a king and four castes was brought by the Sanscrit speakers fully as a ritual division of space and implemented in ceremonial divisions of society.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    > Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. Well, all the other first world countries learned the hard way, first-hand how bad nationalism can get.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - dnautics 13y ago
    "found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far." Japan's politicians visiting Yasukuni, and Korean citizens mass-protesting "the japanese" as an abstract concept....
  - oelmekki 13y ago
    French here. I don't feel that way at all. USA is probably the most patriotic country (which is an other form of nationalism-like disease), but at least all its states seem to be operating in a relative harmony (from an outer point of view, I may be wrong, of course). In Europe, nationalism is a real problem. Within the european union, every state fight to bring more benefit to its own nation rather than looking for the whole union to get better.
    - akiselev 13y ago
      "In Europe, nationalism is a real problem. Within the european union, every state fight to bring more benefit to its own nation rather than looking for the whole union to get better." This is pretty much the case in the United States too, except we call this phenomena "pork barrel legislation" where Congressmen allocate parts of the federal budget for funding infrastructure or other projects in their district at the expense of everyone else. For example, California residents pay way more in Federal income and corporate taxes than they receive in federal funding for schools, infrastructure, etc. Alaska, for example, is quite the opposite and receives a lot more federal money than it pays in federal taxes. This is all due to political dealing in Congress.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. The problem is that it's usually those living in large imperialistic countries that say so (how we should all be "above and beyond countries"), while their countries royally fuck smaller countries. As long as there are people willing to live in their land, with their own way of life, and no submit to some large foreign power, nationalism is good (and I mean a feel of belonging and love for your country, not offensive/militaristic nationalism and bigotry). If you feel like just "passing by" from your country -- ie. if you feel it more like a hotel than a home--, then you're doing it a disservice. That might work if your country is a military and economic behemoth with nothing to fear (e.g the US), but not for a poor country were people strive to make it better. Of course some people only think about what's best for themselves. I wouldn't like to live in a society filled with with those kind of people. >Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. It is. But it's not just nationalism that causes these things (like industrial espionage). Simple, the US government is also a power elite, as is the leaders of big US industries. And those tend to favor their own kind (for profit, of course). So, the top dogs in Washington can give top information to say GE, but it's not like they're doing out of "love for the country". They could probably not care less about the US citizens...
- dm2 13y ago
  Would you prefer humanism? Nationalism is one of the stronger motivators we have for doing "things". It would require too radical of a cultural/mindset change to unify humanity, UNLESS there was an alien invasion like in the Independence Day movie. Humans want something to fight for, we want goals and "teams", and history/evolution/cultural tradition have equipped our brains to handle that kind of environment. I think part of the reason that the US is so keen on nationalism is our military strength. We have the mindset that the US can do whatever it wants anywhere in the world and nobody can really do anything to stop us.
  - wavefunction 13y ago
    The average person in the world would probably be well served by a system providing a basic income, with the opportunity to reproduce at a replacement rate and enjoy stability and security. We've got enough "wealth and technology" to institute such a system, I believe. Others may disagree that we're there yet. Those of us that are self-motivated to learn and create could still drive "progress" forward and perhaps be afforded more freedom in pursuing those goals, rather than being stifled by the artificial retardation instituted by the control freaks currently in charge. I don't really know what we'd do with them though, maybe designate an island where they can act out their primitive ape instincts and vie for control of each other.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      But doesn't that essentially reduce culture to a disease as well? I mean traditional indigenous peoples do things to their children in the process of making them adults that we would find to be heinous crimes. For example the Hopi ritually beat 7-9 year olds before revealing that everything they have been taught about religion is a well-cared for lie (something which is critical, adult Hopis say, in understanding Hopi religion). The Sambia require adolescent boys to fellate their tribal elders (you are what you eat so consuming manliness makes you a man). So forth. If you assert that nationality doesn't matter, then we should be doing everything we can to impose our culture on everyone else just because we think we know best. We need not understand the value that these practices provide for these populations. We can look to our culture to define human rights and everyone else must comply. Humanism is nothing but concealed nationalism.
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  Where I live it is often stated that patriotism is love of the country while nationalism is the hate of all the others. I don't know if politicians make that distinction though. It's also a catchy sentence that could be used to disguise nationalism or discredit other politicians's stance on the country they live in.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    I can understand such of a distinction. I think people who are truly secure about appreciation of their own nation and culture will expect others of other cultures and nations to be the same. People hate others because they hate themselves. I am reminded of German nationalist (pre- and during WWI) Guido von List who said, essentially that German heritage was immensely valuable and all Germans should all appreciate it, but the same applied to other heritage of other countries and groups as well.
    - johnchristopher 13y ago
      Thanks for mentioning Guido von List. I didn't know such a character had existed and there is a really interesting story about his life and how it connects to Arianism.
      - einhverfr 13y ago
        He was an interesting fellow. Interestingly a lot of his work was based on Jacob Grimm's efforts at Germanic mythology and folklore and its connection to Germanic and Indo-Iranian linguistics. He died just before the end of WWI, and it was after his death that the real nastiness of German nationalism took off. The only reason the SS could find von List acceptable was that they were so batshit crazy[1] regarding their views on the German race that they couldn't see anything else about what he was saying. [1] For example by the time the Nazis took power, a common theme in nationalist circles was that all languages were descended from the ancient Germanic mother-tongue. Of course once you get to that point, the Germans had to be descended from Aryans (the folks who brought Sanscrit to India). Why? Because the Aryans brought Sanscrit (a language!!) to India and therefore must have been Germans! If you want sources on this idea I am happy to cite them. Again though there were the crazies in List's time but they were nothing compared to the crazies after the war.
- mcantelon 13y ago
  >nationalism: an infantile disease; the measles of humanity. Our generation's challenge is to conquer this. The first alternatives to nationalism that come to mind are global capitalism and global humanism. Global capitalism seems to be winning out over global humanism and is, in many ways, worse than nationalism. Global capitalism, for example, isn't particularly concerned about environment damage to any given country.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    "Global capitalism, for example, isn't particularly concerned about environment damage to any given country." That's correct, but only because [free market] capitalism reflects the moral values of the individuals that participate in it, and "conserve the world's environment" is not a globally accepted value. If people come to value not trashing other people's homes, then that value will be reflected in the market as a value that competes with "just get me my stuff cheap". Then there is the Marxist concept of capitalism, which I think reflects the state of our neoliberal society more accuratly - that growth and ownership of capital are values unto itself. And, that system probably cares less about environmental damage, although it is more close to the above form of capitalism than, say, mercantilism, or feudalism, or communism. What exactly is "global humanism"? And if the humans in this system you're proposing don't value not trashing other people's homes, then how exactly does it solve this problem of environmental damage?
    - mcantelon 13y ago
      >What exactly is "global humanism"? And if the humans in this system you're proposing don't value not trashing other people's homes, then how exactly does it solve this problem of environmental damage? "Global humanism" would be the global acceptance of a framework of values meant to better the human conditon for all of humanity. And you're completely right: humanity doesn't agree on values so if global humanism somehow manifests, it will be as a pretext for a global imperial order.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    Global humanism of course is as destructive of human cultural diversity as global capitalism is of natural biodiversity, also.
akiselev 13y ago
"10.3.3. Hackers Hackers are computer specialists with the knowledge to gain access to computer networks from the outside. In the early days, hackers were computer freaks who got a kick out of breaking through the security devices of computer systems. Nowadays there are contract hackers in both the services and on the market." (emphasis added) What? This is an official EU report?
- jacquesm 13y ago
  That ship sailed a long time ago.
- nopassrecover 13y ago
  I'm dubious of some of the language as well. For instance a reference to "Ernest Young LLP" which I presume is meant to be Ernst & Young, not to mention prominent typos such as "PROCEDRUAL".
- inthewind 13y ago
  That's it then, all hackers are now offically: crackers.
  - akiselev 13y ago
    That's got its own set of meanings in America too
- _stephan 13y ago
  It seems the report was written by a German. When the report was written (apparently around 2000-2001) "computer freak" was commonly used in Germany to describe what today would be called "nerd" or "geek". There's even a Wikipedia page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak It's not really meant in a derogatory way, it's just one of many annoying pseudo-anglicisms.
  - kybernetyk 13y ago
    This. Only after reading your comment I considered that "freak" might be taken offensive. We grew up with "Computerfreaks" here in Germany. I guess we Germans have a questionable talent of taking english words and making them our own e.g. "Handy" for cell phone. :)
fchollet 13y ago
Also, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON British journalist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager asserted in the 1990s that the United States was exploiting ECHELON traffic for industrial espionage, rather than military and diplomatic purposes.[10] Examples alleged by the journalists include the gear-less wind turbine technology designed by the German firm Enercon[6][11] and the speech technology developed by the Belgian firm Lernout & Hauspie.[12] An article in the US newspaper Baltimore Sun reported in 1995 that European aerospace company Airbus lost a $6 billion contract with Saudi Arabia in 1994 after the US National Security Agency reported that Airbus officials had been bribing Saudi officials to secure the contract.[13][14] In 2001 the Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System recommended to the European Parliament that citizens of member states routinely use cryptography in their communications to protect their privacy, because economic espionage with ECHELON has been conducted by the US intelligence agencies.[6]
- hoggle 13y ago
  I know it's only movies and TV but these were still interesting to watch on all things data retention and surveillance state and are related to the topic: The Listening - 2006 (specifically on Echelon) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8 The Conversation (1974) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g The Lives of Others (2006) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others Spying on the Home Front (PBS, 2007) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/ The Enemy Within (PBS, 2006) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/ The Wire, Season 1 (HBO, 2002) Brazil (1985) Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)
caycep 13y ago
That being said, UK/Canada/Aus/NZ are part of Echelon, no? so information could flow both ways. Of note - how the NSA spies on the Americans it's not supposed to: send the relevant info to UK/Aus/NZ/Canadian SIGINT assets and have them do it...
cromwellian 13y ago
The Lernout and Hauspie stuff sounds like bullshit. This was a company run by fraudsters that dicked over and ripped off the founders of Dragon Systems. They acquired many US speech technology firms in their run up, some that predated L&H, so the idea that the NSA stole US developed and acquired tech in a buyout to advantage American companies sounds bogus. The Airbus thing rings true, but industrial espionage for L&H tech? Who'd want it? It was hardly a strategic technology unlike Aerospace. At best, the NSA themselves might like to use it for transcribing calls, but given the tons and tons of open academic research on speech, it just sounds like the typical IP bullshit of firms accusing other firms of "stealing" algorithms because someone else independently developed something similar. Next the French will be claiming the NSA is stealing important tech from DailyMotion.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  I did not see L&H mentioned, but L&H did end up owning Dragon Systems on the basis of a valuation built on fraud. Dragon Systems did quite a bit of government work, and it's a good bet much of it was for the NSA. The Dragon Jim and Janet Baker built really was a tech "crown jewel." Subsequently ScanSoft (now called Nuance) ended up owning the wreckage of L&H, and Dragon's assets are back in US hands. So that example has some basis in national security issues.
  - cromwellian 13y ago
    True, but how can it be nationalistic industrial espionage when the technology itself was an American technology already, not a Belgian developed one?
    - Zigurd 13y ago
      That's my point: It's not a very vivid example of industrial espionage if the only consequence was that ScanSoft bought L&H assets. There are, however other examples that make it difficult to not be the pot calling the Chinese kettle black.

151 points by _ntka 13y ago

When discussing government signals intelligence programs with the average person, the industrial espionage point is often a very good one with which to sway skeptics who consider individual privacy concerns and totalitarianism-potential too ephemeral to take as serious threats. It is unfortunate, though, that the subject is generally, as within the EU report document, framed within a nationalist perspective - nationalism itself being something of a time-honoured trap for the same class of victim. My most favoured quote of late is Einstein's description of nationalism: an infantile disease; the measles of humanity. Our generation's challenge is to conquer this.

fchollet 13y ago
Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. And in the case at hand, it doesn't help that the US government seems to consider it fair game to have all data of foreign users of US web services handed out to them, in secret and without the users having a say in this.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  > Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. Why, exactly? Without nationalism how can there be any tradition of local governance? And without that how can local culture survive? Or is your point hat local culture shouldn't survive and that the Hopi child should be governed by the same cultural norms as the Swedish?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    This is incoherent, unless you equate culture with nation. Nationalism says that people in your nation are special, that, in effect, rights pertain to them that are not granted to other nations - it is incompatible with morality. On your Hopi/Swedish point, the question here is whether the Hopi child deserves government by the same standards and access to the same opportunities as the Swede. Yes. Yes, she does.
    - dnautics 13y ago
      it's an oppressive point that every human requires the same sort of government to achieve maximal justice. It is, the very argument that the US has proffered to engage in interventionary invasions of the Maghreb - "we're bringing them democracy".
      - vidarh 13y ago
        He did not say that they require the same sort of government. He said they deserve a government of the same standards and access to the same opportunities. That's vastly different.
        einhverfr 13y ago
        I brought up the Hopi very specifically because of their religious practices.[1] Children among the Hopi are raised to believe literally that the Kacina dancers are literally gods from somewhere else who have come to work miracles on the village. Once every 3 years, the children ages 7-9 are gathered together for induction into the religious community of the village. This induction involves ritual beating and betrayal (showing that what they have been taught all their lives is a carefully constructed lie), and thus induction into the religious community is also a somewhat temporary and violent initiation into atheism as well. However this tearing down of belief in relatively visceral and violent ways is considered necessary for passing on the Hopi understanding of religion. The problem I have with this sort of international humanism is that it leaves no room for cultures like that. I mean Think of the Children!!! They are being abused!!! and so we go out of our way to impose our own culture on everyone else in the way of proving that nationalism and ethnocentricity must go. [1] see Gill, Sam D. 1996 "Disenchantment: A Religious Abduction." In Readings in Ritual Studies, edited by Ronald L. Grimes, 230-39. Upper Saddle River, N.J.: Prentice Hall.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    Nation states are a relatively recent concept and even more so as an identify factor for individuals, and local and national culture did quite well without it. Go back to the 18th century, and most states were much more fluid, driven by changes through inheritance, wars, and indeed the fact that a substantial number of todays large, influential nation states simply did not exist yet, or where the states existed in a substantially different form. Nationalism itself did not come to prominence until the latter half of the 18th century (the term itself was not even coined until this time), and a lot of the modern nation states that people came to identify with were artificial constructions created largely as a result of the gradual evolution of local governance and culture coupled with the outgrowth of popular political involvement and the growing prominence of national media where culture started becoming more uniform across what we recognise as modern states often because of limitations of language. Nationalism is not a requisite for local governance or local culture to survive at all - both pre-dated nationalism for millennia.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      But nationalism of that sort is just a modern example of a much older pattern, which stressed the exclusivity in membership of one population to one specific culture. The Greeks spoke of non-greeks as Barbaros, from which we get our word "barbarian" via the Latin borrowing. The Roman writers saw themselves as bringing the light of Roman culture to the barbarians (read Tacitus sometime), and so forth. This is found elsewhere too. The earliest Sanscrit writings refer to the early Sanscrit speakers as "Noble" (Sanscrit 'Aryan') which is one of the reasons folks assume (wrongly I think) that the caste system was set up by the invaders to privilege themselves over the local population.[1] The "nation state" is a somewhat new model to some extent. The older models were more fluid, but the idea of loyalty to one's nation (not necessarily the same as one's state) can be found going back into antiquity, and you can find similar patterns just about everywhere, whether early Ireland, Scandinavia, the Goths during their time in the Roman Empire, India, China, and so forth. The difference is that traditionally loyalty to one's nation was separate to loyalty to one's government. You can see in racial stereotypes much the same thing going on actually. The old division is between people who "act and talk like we do" vs "everyone else." [1] Compare the colors of the Varnas to the colors of the Gunas and the colors of the classes in the Scandinavian poem Rigsthula and you see that the three colors in common are white, red, and black which represent spirituality, war, and labor of the earth respectively. Also note that if you compare functions to the labels of classes in Solonic Athens, the bottom three match-- Hippeis to Ksatria, Vassyia to Zeugmatis, and Sudra to Thetis), while the designations of the upper three match between India and Ireland. There are also long-standing spacial associations with these which can be found across Ireland, India, Scandinavia, and the Greco-Roman world. On this I conclude that the 5-fold division of a king and four castes was brought by the Sanscrit speakers fully as a ritual division of space and implemented in ceremonial divisions of society.
- philwelch 13y ago
  > Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. Well, all the other first world countries learned the hard way, first-hand how bad nationalism can get.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- dnautics 13y ago
  "found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far." Japan's politicians visiting Yasukuni, and Korean citizens mass-protesting "the japanese" as an abstract concept....
- oelmekki 13y ago
  French here. I don't feel that way at all. USA is probably the most patriotic country (which is an other form of nationalism-like disease), but at least all its states seem to be operating in a relative harmony (from an outer point of view, I may be wrong, of course). In Europe, nationalism is a real problem. Within the european union, every state fight to bring more benefit to its own nation rather than looking for the whole union to get better.
  - akiselev 13y ago
    "In Europe, nationalism is a real problem. Within the european union, every state fight to bring more benefit to its own nation rather than looking for the whole union to get better." This is pretty much the case in the United States too, except we call this phenomena "pork barrel legislation" where Congressmen allocate parts of the federal budget for funding infrastructure or other projects in their district at the expense of everyone else. For example, California residents pay way more in Federal income and corporate taxes than they receive in federal funding for schools, infrastructure, etc. Alaska, for example, is quite the opposite and receives a lot more federal money than it pays in federal taxes. This is all due to political dealing in Congress.
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Nationalism is one of these archaic concepts that should have no place in modern society. The problem is that it's usually those living in large imperialistic countries that say so (how we should all be "above and beyond countries"), while their countries royally fuck smaller countries. As long as there are people willing to live in their land, with their own way of life, and no submit to some large foreign power, nationalism is good (and I mean a feel of belonging and love for your country, not offensive/militaristic nationalism and bigotry). If you feel like just "passing by" from your country -- ie. if you feel it more like a hotel than a home--, then you're doing it a disservice. That might work if your country is a military and economic behemoth with nothing to fear (e.g the US), but not for a poor country were people strive to make it better. Of course some people only think about what's best for themselves. I wouldn't like to live in a society filled with with those kind of people. >Interestingly, I found the USA to be the most nationalist 1st-world country there is. By far. It is. But it's not just nationalism that causes these things (like industrial espionage). Simple, the US government is also a power elite, as is the leaders of big US industries. And those tend to favor their own kind (for profit, of course). So, the top dogs in Washington can give top information to say GE, but it's not like they're doing out of "love for the country". They could probably not care less about the US citizens...
dm2 13y ago
Would you prefer humanism? Nationalism is one of the stronger motivators we have for doing "things". It would require too radical of a cultural/mindset change to unify humanity, UNLESS there was an alien invasion like in the Independence Day movie. Humans want something to fight for, we want goals and "teams", and history/evolution/cultural tradition have equipped our brains to handle that kind of environment. I think part of the reason that the US is so keen on nationalism is our military strength. We have the mindset that the US can do whatever it wants anywhere in the world and nobody can really do anything to stop us.
- wavefunction 13y ago
  The average person in the world would probably be well served by a system providing a basic income, with the opportunity to reproduce at a replacement rate and enjoy stability and security. We've got enough "wealth and technology" to institute such a system, I believe. Others may disagree that we're there yet. Those of us that are self-motivated to learn and create could still drive "progress" forward and perhaps be afforded more freedom in pursuing those goals, rather than being stifled by the artificial retardation instituted by the control freaks currently in charge. I don't really know what we'd do with them though, maybe designate an island where they can act out their primitive ape instincts and vie for control of each other.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    But doesn't that essentially reduce culture to a disease as well? I mean traditional indigenous peoples do things to their children in the process of making them adults that we would find to be heinous crimes. For example the Hopi ritually beat 7-9 year olds before revealing that everything they have been taught about religion is a well-cared for lie (something which is critical, adult Hopis say, in understanding Hopi religion). The Sambia require adolescent boys to fellate their tribal elders (you are what you eat so consuming manliness makes you a man). So forth. If you assert that nationality doesn't matter, then we should be doing everything we can to impose our culture on everyone else just because we think we know best. We need not understand the value that these practices provide for these populations. We can look to our culture to define human rights and everyone else must comply. Humanism is nothing but concealed nationalism.
johnchristopher 13y ago
Where I live it is often stated that patriotism is love of the country while nationalism is the hate of all the others. I don't know if politicians make that distinction though. It's also a catchy sentence that could be used to disguise nationalism or discredit other politicians's stance on the country they live in.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  I can understand such of a distinction. I think people who are truly secure about appreciation of their own nation and culture will expect others of other cultures and nations to be the same. People hate others because they hate themselves. I am reminded of German nationalist (pre- and during WWI) Guido von List who said, essentially that German heritage was immensely valuable and all Germans should all appreciate it, but the same applied to other heritage of other countries and groups as well.
  - johnchristopher 13y ago
    Thanks for mentioning Guido von List. I didn't know such a character had existed and there is a really interesting story about his life and how it connects to Arianism.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      He was an interesting fellow. Interestingly a lot of his work was based on Jacob Grimm's efforts at Germanic mythology and folklore and its connection to Germanic and Indo-Iranian linguistics. He died just before the end of WWI, and it was after his death that the real nastiness of German nationalism took off. The only reason the SS could find von List acceptable was that they were so batshit crazy[1] regarding their views on the German race that they couldn't see anything else about what he was saying. [1] For example by the time the Nazis took power, a common theme in nationalist circles was that all languages were descended from the ancient Germanic mother-tongue. Of course once you get to that point, the Germans had to be descended from Aryans (the folks who brought Sanscrit to India). Why? Because the Aryans brought Sanscrit (a language!!) to India and therefore must have been Germans! If you want sources on this idea I am happy to cite them. Again though there were the crazies in List's time but they were nothing compared to the crazies after the war.
mcantelon 13y ago
>nationalism: an infantile disease; the measles of humanity. Our generation's challenge is to conquer this. The first alternatives to nationalism that come to mind are global capitalism and global humanism. Global capitalism seems to be winning out over global humanism and is, in many ways, worse than nationalism. Global capitalism, for example, isn't particularly concerned about environment damage to any given country.
- dnautics 13y ago
  "Global capitalism, for example, isn't particularly concerned about environment damage to any given country." That's correct, but only because [free market] capitalism reflects the moral values of the individuals that participate in it, and "conserve the world's environment" is not a globally accepted value. If people come to value not trashing other people's homes, then that value will be reflected in the market as a value that competes with "just get me my stuff cheap". Then there is the Marxist concept of capitalism, which I think reflects the state of our neoliberal society more accuratly - that growth and ownership of capital are values unto itself. And, that system probably cares less about environmental damage, although it is more close to the above form of capitalism than, say, mercantilism, or feudalism, or communism. What exactly is "global humanism"? And if the humans in this system you're proposing don't value not trashing other people's homes, then how exactly does it solve this problem of environmental damage?
  - mcantelon 13y ago
    >What exactly is "global humanism"? And if the humans in this system you're proposing don't value not trashing other people's homes, then how exactly does it solve this problem of environmental damage? "Global humanism" would be the global acceptance of a framework of values meant to better the human conditon for all of humanity. And you're completely right: humanity doesn't agree on values so if global humanism somehow manifests, it will be as a pretext for a global imperial order.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Global humanism of course is as destructive of human cultural diversity as global capitalism is of natural biodiversity, also.

akiselev 13y ago

"10.3.3. Hackers Hackers are computer specialists with the knowledge to gain access to computer networks from the outside. In the early days, hackers were computer freaks who got a kick out of breaking through the security devices of computer systems. Nowadays there are contract hackers in both the services and on the market." (emphasis added) What? This is an official EU report?

jacquesm 13y ago
That ship sailed a long time ago.
nopassrecover 13y ago
I'm dubious of some of the language as well. For instance a reference to "Ernest Young LLP" which I presume is meant to be Ernst & Young, not to mention prominent typos such as "PROCEDRUAL".
inthewind 13y ago
That's it then, all hackers are now offically: crackers.
- akiselev 13y ago
  That's got its own set of meanings in America too
_stephan 13y ago
It seems the report was written by a German. When the report was written (apparently around 2000-2001) "computer freak" was commonly used in Germany to describe what today would be called "nerd" or "geek". There's even a Wikipedia page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computerfreak It's not really meant in a derogatory way, it's just one of many annoying pseudo-anglicisms.
- kybernetyk 13y ago
  This. Only after reading your comment I considered that "freak" might be taken offensive. We grew up with "Computerfreaks" here in Germany. I guess we Germans have a questionable talent of taking english words and making them our own e.g. "Handy" for cell phone. :)

fchollet 13y ago

Also, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON British journalist Duncan Campbell and New Zealand journalist Nicky Hager asserted in the 1990s that the United States was exploiting ECHELON traffic for industrial espionage, rather than military and diplomatic purposes.[10] Examples alleged by the journalists include the gear-less wind turbine technology designed by the German firm Enercon[6][11] and the speech technology developed by the Belgian firm Lernout & Hauspie.[12] An article in the US newspaper Baltimore Sun reported in 1995 that European aerospace company Airbus lost a $6 billion contract with Saudi Arabia in 1994 after the US National Security Agency reported that Airbus officials had been bribing Saudi officials to secure the contract.[13][14] In 2001 the Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System recommended to the European Parliament that citizens of member states routinely use cryptography in their communications to protect their privacy, because economic espionage with ECHELON has been conducted by the US intelligence agencies.[6]

hoggle 13y ago
I know it's only movies and TV but these were still interesting to watch on all things data retention and surveillance state and are related to the topic: The Listening - 2006 (specifically on Echelon) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427461/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlVK906Xzr8 The Conversation (1974) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrhRsZ56b4g The Lives of Others (2006) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others Spying on the Home Front (PBS, 2007) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/ The Enemy Within (PBS, 2006) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/enemywithin/ The Wire, Season 1 (HBO, 2002) Brazil (1985) Nineteen Eighty-Four (1984)

caycep 13y ago

That being said, UK/Canada/Aus/NZ are part of Echelon, no? so information could flow both ways. Of note - how the NSA spies on the Americans it's not supposed to: send the relevant info to UK/Aus/NZ/Canadian SIGINT assets and have them do it...

cromwellian 13y ago

The Lernout and Hauspie stuff sounds like bullshit. This was a company run by fraudsters that dicked over and ripped off the founders of Dragon Systems. They acquired many US speech technology firms in their run up, some that predated L&H, so the idea that the NSA stole US developed and acquired tech in a buyout to advantage American companies sounds bogus. The Airbus thing rings true, but industrial espionage for L&H tech? Who'd want it? It was hardly a strategic technology unlike Aerospace. At best, the NSA themselves might like to use it for transcribing calls, but given the tons and tons of open academic research on speech, it just sounds like the typical IP bullshit of firms accusing other firms of "stealing" algorithms because someone else independently developed something similar. Next the French will be claiming the NSA is stealing important tech from DailyMotion.

Zigurd 13y ago
I did not see L&H mentioned, but L&H did end up owning Dragon Systems on the basis of a valuation built on fraud. Dragon Systems did quite a bit of government work, and it's a good bet much of it was for the NSA. The Dragon Jim and Janet Baker built really was a tech "crown jewel." Subsequently ScanSoft (now called Nuance) ended up owning the wreckage of L&H, and Dragon's assets are back in US hands. So that example has some basis in national security issues.
- cromwellian 13y ago
  True, but how can it be nationalistic industrial espionage when the technology itself was an American technology already, not a Belgian developed one?
  - Zigurd 13y ago
    That's my point: It's not a very vivid example of industrial espionage if the only consequence was that ScanSoft bought L&H assets. There are, however other examples that make it difficult to not be the pot calling the Chinese kettle black.