8 ms·

If the government hasn't done anything wrong, then they shouldn't have anything to hide from us :) More seriously, some amount of surveillance is probably nece

by paul 13y ago

If the government hasn't done anything wrong, then they shouldn't have anything to hide from us :) More seriously, some amount of surveillance is probably necessary, but they need to be a lot more open and transparent about it. Secret laws and secret courts are not the stuff a free society is made of.

mtgx 13y ago
Apparently, they do. FISA spying has been found unconstitutional since 2011, but they are keeping it a secret: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret-court-opinion-law-underlying-prism-program-needs-stay https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret... This is happening in the "beacon of democracy" of the world.
- cinquemb 13y ago
  So basically, trying to engage in a debate about such gives something (like the president suggests), that shouldn't have legs to stand on constitutional grounds, is just more fuel for the machine? Good to know.
  - mh- 13y ago
    I tried to parse your comment way too many times.
    - cinquemb 13y ago
      Yeah it reads weird because I should have put the comma after such (with the parenthetical reference before it). At least entering comments doesn't work like a complier so I don't have to spend hours trying to figure out where all my syntactical errors are haha.
- enraged_camel 13y ago
  For the record, the only people who see the USA as the "beacon of democracy" are Americans. I'm not saying this to start a flame war, but to simply point out that the USA is no more democratic than many other Western nations. (My personal opinion is that the USA is much more of a beacon of imperialism than of democracy. But that's neither here nor there.)
  - deelowe 13y ago
    s/americans/american government and media(for a lot of us at least)
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      To be fair, those people are exclusively Americans. Not all Americans think of America as a "beacon of democracy", but pretty much anyone who does is themselves American. Also, rectangles are not squares, though squares are rectangles.
      - gknoy 13y ago
        Nearly every American __wants__ our country to be a beacon of democracy, however, which is why this type of behavior by our government is so frustrating.
        tomp 13y ago
        Nearly every person wants their country to be a beacon of democracy (and freedom). Except those in power, of course (in America and elsewhere).
  - rorrr2 13y ago
    US is actually less democratic than many countries - Canada, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2012_gree... [2] http://www.democracyranking.org/en/ranking.htm http://www.democracyranking.org/en/ranking.htm If we're talking about economic freedom or the freedom of press, it's even worse: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
    - contingencies 13y ago
      The notion of democratic itself is a flawed one - meaningful representation left the building a long time ago. It is often used to evoke some sense of greater social justice. Notice though, how notions such as 'willingness to invade other sovereign nations' or 'laws on books against fundamental human rights' or 'presence of any constitution or meaningful court of higher appeal' or 'centralization of media ownership' or 'measured trajectory of higher educational capacity' or 'number of excuses government can use to spy on or detain citizens' also seem conveniently out of scope. Simply put, the notion we are sold of western democracy as some all-solving wonderland of equality and transparent empathetic good-governance is a farce. The more people lend rankings like these ones credence, the harder that is for people to see. (Though they certainly do have some utility, it is important also to see them critically.)
- gwgarry 13y ago
  Time for Americans to wake up to the tyranny they have been subjecting the rest of the world to since WWII. If foreigners don't have rights, then sooner or later those same rules will get applied to Americans. In fact that's already happened, just not on American soil yet.
EWRWE 13y ago
http://www.redabogados.net/profile/proyectoencuestaVenezuela http://www.redabogados.net/profile/proyectoencuestaVenezuela Lawyers. Net - URGENT We pay 700 million USD to SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS Lawyers for Vallejos case. SEVEN present all tests. Drafting and filing of the Petition and complaint to the Inter American Court The Hague and the UN. On behalf of Juan Carlos Vallejos, mental torture case, a citizen of Venezuela Resides in the state of Carabobo, Valencia, identity card, CI 12,108,222, The following presidents denounce North Americans, Europeans, Asians and Latin Americans. For genocide, administrations (2002-2013). -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- COMPLAINT FOR MURDER, THEFT, VIOLATION, DRUG, TERRORIST USING SATELLITES AND NANO TECHNOLOGY, WITH VISUAL INFORMATION OBTAINED WHICH ACTIVITIES PERFORMED IN dferentes ETAD BY CONBENIO VALLEJOS IF, WITH NICOLAS MATURE POLITICO. 1. - THE PRESIDENT BARAK OBAMA, MICHELLE OBAMA, FROM THE 2000 REPORT DATE OF WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. Note: * 1. - PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, 2000 FROM THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT WHICH WIFE WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 2. - THE PRESIDENT OF JAPAN FROM 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 3. - PRIME MINISTER FROM NORTH KOREA 2000 DATE OF REPORT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 4. - PRIME MINISTER OF CHINA SINCE 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 5. - PRIME MINISTER OF JAPAN FROM 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ 1. - The President of Germany. 2. - The Spanish state and its president. 3. - The Swiss state and politicians of their respective cantons. 4. - President of Russia. 5. - The President of Japan. 6. - Prime Minister of China. 7. - Prime Minister of North Korea. 8. - Prime Minister of South Korea, Ban Quee Moon. 9. - The president of Italy. 10. - The president of Canada. 11. - Portugal Anibal Antonio Cavaco Silva and sons Teodoro Patrícia Gonçalves Silva Cavaco Silva. 12. - Mariano Rajoy Brey. 13. - Antoni MARTI PETIT. 14. - Francois Hollande. 15. - Minister of State) Michel ROGER. 16. - Joachim gauck. 17. - Corina Casanova. 18. - AUSTRIA PRESIDENT: Heinz FISCHER. 19. - LIECHTENSTEIN: (Prime Minister) Klaus STCHUTSCHER. 20. - ITALY: PRESIDENT: Giorgio NAPOLITANO. 21. - PRIME MINISTER: Mario Monti. 22. - BELARUS: Aleksandr Lukashenko. 23. - ARMENIA: Serzh SARGSYAN. 24. - RUSSIA: Prime Minister Fredrik REINFELDT. 25. - SWEDEN: President Vladimir Vladimirovich PUTIN. 26. - Felipe González. 27. - José María Aznar. We include other presidents that allow the satellite, 2013: 1. - The president of Colombia. 2. - The president of Argentina. 3. - The president of Brazil. 4. - The president of Ecuador. 5. - President of Cuba. 6. - The president of Mexico. 7. - Nicolas Maduro. They all perform in Venezuela satellite transmissions. Genocide crimes. Some of the tests. http://www.liberenlosya.com/foros/?mingleforumaction=viewforum&f=1.0 http://www.liberenlosya.com/foros/?mingleforumaction=viewfor... Juan Carlos Vallejos. To the Judges and Lawyer Professionals working in international criminal law. Complaints that we would like to present in these courts include theft business models: Perfectible Bank which have video and is the main reason why these agencies perform the cauterization, radiation and torture in Juan Carlos Vallejos. Wells Extraction System terminals, designed for extraction of heavy hydro carbons. The allowances include asking for the victim, that the radiations which occurred for 14 years and the loss of telomeres of each DNA molecule, be paid to the victim, the amount of $ 1,000,000 for each telomere that was lost because of radiation. We have all the evidence to prove it. We made the complaint in the Supreme Court of the state of Carabobo, Valencia, however these records are stolen. The complaint shall be presented by professionals abogados.net, to the competent courts, the complainant, Juan Carlos Vallejos, Chilean, residing in Venezuela, Carabobo, Valencia, Camoruco valleys, street 133, Lopez Latouche, (this is the street Red Cross), Altamira apt bldg 1-b. Payment for the services of lawyers, is 60% of the amount of compensation. The approximate amount for those who are not geneticists is $ 700 million, seven hundred million dollars. Even so you can negotiate the payment. We publish the emails, but the ideal is to communicate by phone. Jcvcorredoresinmobiliarios@yahoo.com, casaenventa2@gamil.com, r_vallejos@yahoo.com Phones: Venezuela + (0058) 0241-823-81-97 / 0414-585-00-44 / 0414-406-68-52 - In case you can not contact the secretary contact the consulate of Chile, Rosalia Vasquez + (0058) 0212-953-14-85 is Vallejos family friend.
SCAQTony 13y ago
Outrageous! they break the law by violating our fourth amendment and then they launch a "criminal investigation" to punish those that came forward to report the violation. Secret laws and secret courts are illegal.
downandout 13y ago
Governments have a legitimate need for secrecy in some situations. If FBI investigations of white collar crimes were posted on a public website, for example, there would be a dramatic rise in both flights and wire transfers to Belize. The blame here lies squarely with legislators that have drafted laws that are intentionally worded to give the public a false sense of privacy while enabling agencies like NSA to run amok. We elect these representatives precisely for this reason - they are supposed to protect our rights in situations where we can't. Not only did they create these laws, but they were apparently overseeing the mass-surveillance programs established under them and had no problem with the extraordinary Constitutional violations they enabled. Our own President has come in in strong support of these programs. Whether you voted for him or not, you should not be OK with that. Every senator or congressman that has anything to do with intelligence oversight, along with those that had anything to do with the drafting of these laws, and all other elected officials that have or will come out in support of these programs, must never be reelected. This, unfortunately, is the only realistic defense that US citizens have against their tyrannical government.
- naasking 13y ago
  > Governments have a legitimate need for secrecy in some situations. If FBI investigations of white collar crimes were posted on a public website, for example, there would be a dramatic rise in both flights and wire transfers to Belize. I think this argument is based on a strawman. The 'secrecy' most people assume and that the government wants is 'keeping secrets indefinitely at their sole discretion'. The 'secrecy' needed by your or any other scenario is merely a time-limited secret, ie. that all information must be released publicly once investigations are completed. The former is intrinsically harmful, the latter shouldn't harm anyone.

by paul 13y ago

mtgx 13y ago

Apparently, they do. FISA spying has been found unconstitutional since 2011, but they are keeping it a secret: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret-court-opinion-law-underlying-prism-program-needs-stay https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-says-secret... This is happening in the "beacon of democracy" of the world.

cinquemb 13y ago
So basically, trying to engage in a debate about such gives something (like the president suggests), that shouldn't have legs to stand on constitutional grounds, is just more fuel for the machine? Good to know.
- mh- 13y ago
  I tried to parse your comment way too many times.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    Yeah it reads weird because I should have put the comma after such (with the parenthetical reference before it). At least entering comments doesn't work like a complier so I don't have to spend hours trying to figure out where all my syntactical errors are haha.
enraged_camel 13y ago
For the record, the only people who see the USA as the "beacon of democracy" are Americans. I'm not saying this to start a flame war, but to simply point out that the USA is no more democratic than many other Western nations. (My personal opinion is that the USA is much more of a beacon of imperialism than of democracy. But that's neither here nor there.)
- deelowe 13y ago
  s/americans/american government and media(for a lot of us at least)
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    To be fair, those people are exclusively Americans. Not all Americans think of America as a "beacon of democracy", but pretty much anyone who does is themselves American. Also, rectangles are not squares, though squares are rectangles.
    - gknoy 13y ago
      Nearly every American __wants__ our country to be a beacon of democracy, however, which is why this type of behavior by our government is so frustrating.
      - tomp 13y ago
        Nearly every person wants their country to be a beacon of democracy (and freedom). Except those in power, of course (in America and elsewhere).
- rorrr2 13y ago
  US is actually less democratic than many countries - Canada, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2012_green_and_red.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2012_gree... [2] http://www.democracyranking.org/en/ranking.htm http://www.democracyranking.org/en/ranking.htm If we're talking about economic freedom or the freedom of press, it's even worse: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index
  - contingencies 13y ago
    The notion of democratic itself is a flawed one - meaningful representation left the building a long time ago. It is often used to evoke some sense of greater social justice. Notice though, how notions such as 'willingness to invade other sovereign nations' or 'laws on books against fundamental human rights' or 'presence of any constitution or meaningful court of higher appeal' or 'centralization of media ownership' or 'measured trajectory of higher educational capacity' or 'number of excuses government can use to spy on or detain citizens' also seem conveniently out of scope. Simply put, the notion we are sold of western democracy as some all-solving wonderland of equality and transparent empathetic good-governance is a farce. The more people lend rankings like these ones credence, the harder that is for people to see. (Though they certainly do have some utility, it is important also to see them critically.)
gwgarry 13y ago
Time for Americans to wake up to the tyranny they have been subjecting the rest of the world to since WWII. If foreigners don't have rights, then sooner or later those same rules will get applied to Americans. In fact that's already happened, just not on American soil yet.

EWRWE 13y ago

http://www.redabogados.net/profile/proyectoencuestaVenezuela http://www.redabogados.net/profile/proyectoencuestaVenezuela Lawyers. Net - URGENT We pay 700 million USD to SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS Lawyers for Vallejos case. SEVEN present all tests. Drafting and filing of the Petition and complaint to the Inter American Court The Hague and the UN. On behalf of Juan Carlos Vallejos, mental torture case, a citizen of Venezuela Resides in the state of Carabobo, Valencia, identity card, CI 12,108,222, The following presidents denounce North Americans, Europeans, Asians and Latin Americans. For genocide, administrations (2002-2013). -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- COMPLAINT FOR MURDER, THEFT, VIOLATION, DRUG, TERRORIST USING SATELLITES AND NANO TECHNOLOGY, WITH VISUAL INFORMATION OBTAINED WHICH ACTIVITIES PERFORMED IN dferentes ETAD BY CONBENIO VALLEJOS IF, WITH NICOLAS MATURE POLITICO. 1. - THE PRESIDENT BARAK OBAMA, MICHELLE OBAMA, FROM THE 2000 REPORT DATE OF WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. Note: * 1. - PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, 2000 FROM THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT WHICH WIFE WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 2. - THE PRESIDENT OF JAPAN FROM 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 3. - PRIME MINISTER FROM NORTH KOREA 2000 DATE OF REPORT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 4. - PRIME MINISTER OF CHINA SINCE 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. 5. - PRIME MINISTER OF JAPAN FROM 2000 THE DATE OF THE COMPLAINT 2013. WIFE WHICH WE SEND THE COMPLAINT. SAW HIS DAUGHTERS THE COMPLAINT WHICH PUBLISHED IN THEIR BLOGS. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ 1. - The President of Germany. 2. - The Spanish state and its president. 3. - The Swiss state and politicians of their respective cantons. 4. - President of Russia. 5. - The President of Japan. 6. - Prime Minister of China. 7. - Prime Minister of North Korea. 8. - Prime Minister of South Korea, Ban Quee Moon. 9. - The president of Italy. 10. - The president of Canada. 11. - Portugal Anibal Antonio Cavaco Silva and sons Teodoro Patrícia Gonçalves Silva Cavaco Silva. 12. - Mariano Rajoy Brey. 13. - Antoni MARTI PETIT. 14. - Francois Hollande. 15. - Minister of State) Michel ROGER. 16. - Joachim gauck. 17. - Corina Casanova. 18. - AUSTRIA PRESIDENT: Heinz FISCHER. 19. - LIECHTENSTEIN: (Prime Minister) Klaus STCHUTSCHER. 20. - ITALY: PRESIDENT: Giorgio NAPOLITANO. 21. - PRIME MINISTER: Mario Monti. 22. - BELARUS: Aleksandr Lukashenko. 23. - ARMENIA: Serzh SARGSYAN. 24. - RUSSIA: Prime Minister Fredrik REINFELDT. 25. - SWEDEN: President Vladimir Vladimirovich PUTIN. 26. - Felipe González. 27. - José María Aznar. We include other presidents that allow the satellite, 2013: 1. - The president of Colombia. 2. - The president of Argentina. 3. - The president of Brazil. 4. - The president of Ecuador. 5. - President of Cuba. 6. - The president of Mexico. 7. - Nicolas Maduro. They all perform in Venezuela satellite transmissions. Genocide crimes. Some of the tests. http://www.liberenlosya.com/foros/?mingleforumaction=viewforum&f=1.0 http://www.liberenlosya.com/foros/?mingleforumaction=viewfor... Juan Carlos Vallejos. To the Judges and Lawyer Professionals working in international criminal law. Complaints that we would like to present in these courts include theft business models: Perfectible Bank which have video and is the main reason why these agencies perform the cauterization, radiation and torture in Juan Carlos Vallejos. Wells Extraction System terminals, designed for extraction of heavy hydro carbons. The allowances include asking for the victim, that the radiations which occurred for 14 years and the loss of telomeres of each DNA molecule, be paid to the victim, the amount of $ 1,000,000 for each telomere that was lost because of radiation. We have all the evidence to prove it. We made the complaint in the Supreme Court of the state of Carabobo, Valencia, however these records are stolen. The complaint shall be presented by professionals abogados.net, to the competent courts, the complainant, Juan Carlos Vallejos, Chilean, residing in Venezuela, Carabobo, Valencia, Camoruco valleys, street 133, Lopez Latouche, (this is the street Red Cross), Altamira apt bldg 1-b. Payment for the services of lawyers, is 60% of the amount of compensation. The approximate amount for those who are not geneticists is $ 700 million, seven hundred million dollars. Even so you can negotiate the payment. We publish the emails, but the ideal is to communicate by phone. Jcvcorredoresinmobiliarios@yahoo.com, casaenventa2@gamil.com, r_vallejos@yahoo.com Phones: Venezuela + (0058) 0241-823-81-97 / 0414-585-00-44 / 0414-406-68-52 - In case you can not contact the secretary contact the consulate of Chile, Rosalia Vasquez + (0058) 0212-953-14-85 is Vallejos family friend.

SCAQTony 13y ago

Outrageous! they break the law by violating our fourth amendment and then they launch a "criminal investigation" to punish those that came forward to report the violation. Secret laws and secret courts are illegal.

downandout 13y ago

Governments have a legitimate need for secrecy in some situations. If FBI investigations of white collar crimes were posted on a public website, for example, there would be a dramatic rise in both flights and wire transfers to Belize. The blame here lies squarely with legislators that have drafted laws that are intentionally worded to give the public a false sense of privacy while enabling agencies like NSA to run amok. We elect these representatives precisely for this reason - they are supposed to protect our rights in situations where we can't. Not only did they create these laws, but they were apparently overseeing the mass-surveillance programs established under them and had no problem with the extraordinary Constitutional violations they enabled. Our own President has come in in strong support of these programs. Whether you voted for him or not, you should not be OK with that. Every senator or congressman that has anything to do with intelligence oversight, along with those that had anything to do with the drafting of these laws, and all other elected officials that have or will come out in support of these programs, must never be reelected. This, unfortunately, is the only realistic defense that US citizens have against their tyrannical government.

naasking 13y ago
> Governments have a legitimate need for secrecy in some situations. If FBI investigations of white collar crimes were posted on a public website, for example, there would be a dramatic rise in both flights and wire transfers to Belize. I think this argument is based on a strawman. The 'secrecy' most people assume and that the government wants is 'keeping secrets indefinitely at their sole discretion'. The 'secrecy' needed by your or any other scenario is merely a time-limited secret, ie. that all information must be released publicly once investigations are completed. The former is intrinsically harmful, the latter shouldn't harm anyone.