5 ms·

After Being Upstaged By Google, Wolfram Alpha Fires Back With A Leaked Screenshot

23 points by vaksel 18y ago

vaksel 18y ago
This is the first clue that Wolfram is not competing with Google
- jpwagner 18y ago
  I know! It's like thinking that Ducati competes with Amtrak. Sure their products have similar objectives, but their function, specs, market, etc are completely different.
  - frossie 18y ago
    Okay, can you provide a bit more detail besides the analogy? For example, reading one of the links referenced in the OP, it says "It doesn’t simply return documents that (might) contain the answers, like Google does, and it isn’t just a giant database of knowledge, like the Wikipedia. It doesn’t simply parse natural language and then use that to retrieve documents, like Powerset, for example. Instead, Wolfram Alpha actually computes the answers to a wide range of questions — like questions that have factual answers such as “What country is Timbuktu in?” or “How many protons are in a hydrogen atom?” or “What is the average rainfall in Seattle?” http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-answers-to-factual-questions-this-is-going-to-be-big/ http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-... But Google does some of those things indirectly at least. For example, in a Google Spreadsheet I can type =GoogleLookup("hydrogen", "number of protons") and the cell returns one. =GoogleLookup("Timbuktu", "country") returns "Mali" and =GoogleLookup("Seattle", "rainfall") returns "36 inches". Now I don't know whether there is some syntax to do these from the main search, but it seems to cover some similar ground. I am guessing since everybody is very excited about Wolfram Alpha that there must be more than this, or qualitatively different. [Edit following comment below: I am not saying they are competing, I was asking whether the same underlying technology is powering both, for example with Wolfram being a more complex version of whatever GoogleLookup is doing, or whether the algorithmic approach is fundamentally different. I will admit to not watching the 2 hour webcast and looking for a quick answer]
    - jpwagner 18y ago
      My comment on Wolfram|Alpha limitations: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584045 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584045 Simple example of Google Limitation (I'm sure there are better): =GoogleLookup("Ruler of France","1821") =GoogleLookup("1821","Ruler of France") both return null. What is the entity? However, if I want to find out when the next AC/DC Concert is, Wolfram|Alpha probably won't be much help. They are really not competing...Clear?
    - vaksel 18y ago
      I wonder how many people actually use Google Lookup instead of just opening a new tab and searching Google
      - jpwagner 18y ago
        GoogleLookup is useful sometimes. If the rainfall changes in Seattle, your spreadsheet would update... Although another proton won't likely be discoverd in a Hydrogen atom.
    - zackattack 18y ago
      Wow, neat. GoogleLookup: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=54199 http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe... Comprehensive function list: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=82712 http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe...
andrewljohnson 18y ago
I think innovations in search will be largely about interface and about relevance. It's not who has the most, or the best data, because it's not really that much of a technical challenge to build a big search index anymore. So, I think that Wolfram could be on the right track, because this seems to try and expose data that Google doesn't, in ways it doesn't. The challenge is providing useful and relevant snapshots of that data to the user. In this area, Google continues to innovate. Maps, images, video, reddit-like search, your name it... Google is always looking for new ways to reveal good data to people. And Google is definitely good at producing relevant searches for people's phrases and words. Maybe Wolfram's new search engine will have a good interface, and provide relevant results. I certainly wouldn't put it past them, and I doubt this will be a Cuil flame out. Though I do tend to agree with the sentiment that talking about something before it is released is suspicious. A good search engine sells itself.
- ashot 18y ago
  its not a technical challenge to build an index of the entire web? certainly not easy, and not any easier than it was before as the web is much larger there is also freshness/timeliness which is the most difficult aspect and is becoming more and more important as more data is added to the web faster (one area where googlebot kills yahoo/msn)
  - andrewljohnson 18y ago
    Yeah, I'd say it's not much of a technical challenge. Storage is cheap, indexing algorithms are well-known, and the problem space has been heavily explored. And it's misleading to talk about the entire web. Google may index billions upon billions of pages, but only a small percent actually get shown to the user, or stored in memory. And I would say that a smart kid with a few computers or a couple of bucks can build the index. Then the hard part starts. Machine learning to correct search placements, based on features like clicks and time in index. Algorithms to detect spam. Anticipation of user data needs. And all the nitty gritty of linguistic analysis to better sort your index. These types of things require new and innovative thoughts. In my mind, building a search index is just standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before. I'm not saying Google isn't amazing or that building a search index isn't a great homework problem, but the basic part of getting, storing, and serving the data has been engineered and can be engineered again at will.
gojomo 18y ago
Is today's Alpha webcast archived anywhere?
- gojomo 18y ago
  Now on front page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584477 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584477
ph0rque 18y ago
I will be really impressed when I can ask a question like the following: "What is the historical cost of solar per watt for the last 30 years?" and get a meaningful answer, which right now is scattered across various press releases, journal articles, etc. I don't really care who answers it, google or wolfram alpha.
- vaksel 18y ago
  What unit of measurement is "solar"?
  - litewulf 18y ago
    I'm going to guess he asked "how much does solar cost, per watt..."
  - ph0rque 18y ago
    Sorry, I meant solar power.
quellhorst 18y ago
They are already failing since they give you a search box that doesn't work. When it finally does work, I probably will be trained not to type into that box.

23 points by vaksel 18y ago

vaksel 18y ago

This is the first clue that Wolfram is not competing with Google

jpwagner 18y ago
I know! It's like thinking that Ducati competes with Amtrak. Sure their products have similar objectives, but their function, specs, market, etc are completely different.
- frossie 18y ago
  Okay, can you provide a bit more detail besides the analogy? For example, reading one of the links referenced in the OP, it says "It doesn’t simply return documents that (might) contain the answers, like Google does, and it isn’t just a giant database of knowledge, like the Wikipedia. It doesn’t simply parse natural language and then use that to retrieve documents, like Powerset, for example. Instead, Wolfram Alpha actually computes the answers to a wide range of questions — like questions that have factual answers such as “What country is Timbuktu in?” or “How many protons are in a hydrogen atom?” or “What is the average rainfall in Seattle?” http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-answers-to-factual-questions-this-is-going-to-be-big/ http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/08/wolfram-alpha-computes-... But Google does some of those things indirectly at least. For example, in a Google Spreadsheet I can type =GoogleLookup("hydrogen", "number of protons") and the cell returns one. =GoogleLookup("Timbuktu", "country") returns "Mali" and =GoogleLookup("Seattle", "rainfall") returns "36 inches". Now I don't know whether there is some syntax to do these from the main search, but it seems to cover some similar ground. I am guessing since everybody is very excited about Wolfram Alpha that there must be more than this, or qualitatively different. [Edit following comment below: I am not saying they are competing, I was asking whether the same underlying technology is powering both, for example with Wolfram being a more complex version of whatever GoogleLookup is doing, or whether the algorithmic approach is fundamentally different. I will admit to not watching the 2 hour webcast and looking for a quick answer]
  - jpwagner 18y ago
    My comment on Wolfram|Alpha limitations: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584045 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584045 Simple example of Google Limitation (I'm sure there are better): =GoogleLookup("Ruler of France","1821") =GoogleLookup("1821","Ruler of France") both return null. What is the entity? However, if I want to find out when the next AC/DC Concert is, Wolfram|Alpha probably won't be much help. They are really not competing...Clear?
  - vaksel 18y ago
    I wonder how many people actually use Google Lookup instead of just opening a new tab and searching Google
    - jpwagner 18y ago
      GoogleLookup is useful sometimes. If the rainfall changes in Seattle, your spreadsheet would update... Although another proton won't likely be discoverd in a Hydrogen atom.
  - zackattack 18y ago
    Wow, neat. GoogleLookup: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=54199 http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe... Comprehensive function list: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=82712 http://docs.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe...

andrewljohnson 18y ago

I think innovations in search will be largely about interface and about relevance. It's not who has the most, or the best data, because it's not really that much of a technical challenge to build a big search index anymore. So, I think that Wolfram could be on the right track, because this seems to try and expose data that Google doesn't, in ways it doesn't. The challenge is providing useful and relevant snapshots of that data to the user. In this area, Google continues to innovate. Maps, images, video, reddit-like search, your name it... Google is always looking for new ways to reveal good data to people. And Google is definitely good at producing relevant searches for people's phrases and words. Maybe Wolfram's new search engine will have a good interface, and provide relevant results. I certainly wouldn't put it past them, and I doubt this will be a Cuil flame out. Though I do tend to agree with the sentiment that talking about something before it is released is suspicious. A good search engine sells itself.

ashot 18y ago
its not a technical challenge to build an index of the entire web? certainly not easy, and not any easier than it was before as the web is much larger there is also freshness/timeliness which is the most difficult aspect and is becoming more and more important as more data is added to the web faster (one area where googlebot kills yahoo/msn)
- andrewljohnson 18y ago
  Yeah, I'd say it's not much of a technical challenge. Storage is cheap, indexing algorithms are well-known, and the problem space has been heavily explored. And it's misleading to talk about the entire web. Google may index billions upon billions of pages, but only a small percent actually get shown to the user, or stored in memory. And I would say that a smart kid with a few computers or a couple of bucks can build the index. Then the hard part starts. Machine learning to correct search placements, based on features like clicks and time in index. Algorithms to detect spam. Anticipation of user data needs. And all the nitty gritty of linguistic analysis to better sort your index. These types of things require new and innovative thoughts. In my mind, building a search index is just standing on the shoulders of the giants that came before. I'm not saying Google isn't amazing or that building a search index isn't a great homework problem, but the basic part of getting, storing, and serving the data has been engineered and can be engineered again at will.

gojomo 18y ago

Is today's Alpha webcast archived anywhere?

gojomo 18y ago
Now on front page: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584477 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=584477

ph0rque 18y ago

I will be really impressed when I can ask a question like the following: "What is the historical cost of solar per watt for the last 30 years?" and get a meaningful answer, which right now is scattered across various press releases, journal articles, etc. I don't really care who answers it, google or wolfram alpha.

vaksel 18y ago
What unit of measurement is "solar"?
- litewulf 18y ago
  I'm going to guess he asked "how much does solar cost, per watt..."
- ph0rque 18y ago
  Sorry, I meant solar power.

quellhorst 18y ago

They are already failing since they give you a search box that doesn't work. When it finally does work, I probably will be trained not to type into that box.