9 ms·

I've lived under surveillance before, so I feel my perspective might be somewhat appropriate. I won't comment on the specifics (uninteresting and irrelevant, ha

I've lived under surveillance before, so I feel my perspective might be somewhat appropriate. I won't comment on the specifics (uninteresting and irrelevant, had to do with where I was living). I won't even make a statement about whether it's justified in my case or in general. I'd just ask everyone here to do one thing: Watch this, then ask yourself how you feel (if it doesn't go directly to 6:40, fastforward to it, then watch for 30 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs&feature=youtu.be&t=6m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs&feature=yout... I understand about various interpretations of "collect", "intercept", "analyze", etc. Just watch the video, and ask yourself how you feel. Please know that I'm not telling you how to feel, just providing a small snippet of a conversation. Why do you feel that way, and what does that feeling say about you, or your society? Originally found in a comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5835025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5835025

mtoddh 13y ago
And my guess is the following video is an example of why the NYT is now saying that Obama no longer has any credibility on this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4
- rdl 13y ago
  I would have voted for that guy (except for "FISA works!", but enh). I'd even be ok with ditching the 22nd if we could get that guy as President. I wonder what happened -- was it all a cynical ploy, or was there some secret (real or fake) information about how without wholesale monitoring we'd all instantly be destroyed, or what.
  - Sven7 13y ago
    Big data is hard to ignore.
  - flinty 13y ago
    Its easy to say the right things from the outside but when you enter the sausage factory you see how the sausage is made and realize how hard/impossible it is to really change things
- tdfx 13y ago
  I cringed when he mentioned the National Security Letters. Didn't even realize he was supposed to be getting rid of those, too.
quackerhacker 13y ago
I've been monitored too, but did you really believe that all of the activities we do online weren't monitored...or do you just believe (like I did before I got convicted), that the gov won't bother with us. This is just more reason why bills like CISPA need to be revised or blocked. The gov already knows what we do, but it just comes down to what they can prove in court.
Taylorious 13y ago
I laughed at how incredibly shifty the General is when he "answers."
- btilly 13y ago
  There was an interesting analysis at one point correlating what CEOs said when presenting their financial statements with whether those statements later suffered major negative revisions. It would be interesting to have this automated and available in real time. (Of course people would learn the value of making it trigger level. But you can include whether the person by virtue of their position likely has that level of awareness...)
- mladenkovacevic 13y ago
  Seriously... You'd think of all the billions of dollars that go into military training they'd be able to put up a few bucks to teach this guy how to lie a little more believably
  - adventured 13y ago
    The guy probably hasn't had to worry about such things for decades. He's an operations bureaucrat, and probably someone above him decided they could afford to burn him if the shit hit the fan (and by this point, they probably already knew some shit was heading toward the fan).
    - vidarh 13y ago
      More likely: He, and everyone else involved in this, know that it doesn't matter if everyone knows the answer is a lie - the likelihood of any negative consequences is pretty much zero. First, the odds that anyone will be able to provide sufficient proof to cause any problems is minimal, secondly, if they are: State secrets privilege. Poof goes that problem. The only real challenge would be a massive public uproar suitably close to an election that someone needs to be sacrificed, and how likely is that really? It's not a surprise that this is happening; the only surprise is that anything resembling proof has leaked. What are the odds that this will suddenly tip the balance and cause sufficient lasting outrage?
samstave 13y ago
At a very minimum - this guy needs to be tried for perjury and removed from his post. And millions of americans should sign a petition to have this happen.
- ihsw 13y ago
  If you're referring to online petitions then you needn't waste your time, there are already petitions to make sure this never happens. It's called US Senate elections[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,... That bullshit called the Presidential elections? It's a dog and pony show.
  - cinquemb 13y ago
    There's a famous quote somewhere about where political power really comes from… I look to history (and present day actions) and it seems like a fitting solution to meaningful representation. Then again, years later we could be right back where we started… Hint: The last bit I left out rhymes with "carol of the sun" ;)
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      I don't know what quote you are referring to, but here is my favourite one. "You don’t know what order with freedom means! You only know what revolt against oppression is! You don’t know that the rod, discipline, violence, the state and government can only be sustained because of you and because of your lack of socially creative powers that develop order within liberty!" --- Gustav Landauer It humbles me every time I read it, because to resist or to rebel against existing things is easy, at least for me.. but to actually put thought and effort into things "building a better world" in a sustainable and organized way, to be creative in co-operation and compromising with others, to get out of all these comfort zones, etc. It's a lifetime effort, and none of us will see all the fruits of it, or ever be sure the fruit won't be snatched up, so the default is to not even try, except a little bit here and there. It's like living hand to mouth, but in a political sense. It's all just reaction, and that sucks.
chailatte 13y ago
There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now president, Barack W Bush. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.
jcrites 13y ago
I am not defending the program. But doesn't the program only collect data when there is a 51% percent confidence or greater that the source is foreign? That's a bit slippery, but could be an explanation for his statement.
- serge2k 13y ago
  Gee, I deserve to be constantly monitored for daring to legally enter your entry in order to be a productive member of your society. Thanks for that.
aneth4 13y ago
Wow. He's not even a good liar. You can see all sorts of soothing behavior and micro-expressions. Contrast that to his direct confident demeanor when he's telling evasive truths. Clapper is the Director of National Intelligence
- lmg643 13y ago
  Given all the contortions that politicians have to make just to get through the day, it wouldn't surprise me that Obama truly believes what he said back in 2007, but once he got into power he got an education on what the CIA/NSA is doing and he realized that either he can try to live up to these values and likely cause wildly unpredictable outcomes (some positive, some negative), or he can let it continue, given there were enough plausibly compelling reasons, despite the potential for abuse. thus - status quo reigns. truly change we can believe in, and a good example of how power corrupts. the military-industrial complex has a life of its own. thank you eisenhower.
jhart3333 13y ago
chailatte, your comment is dead. I think it triggered the beautiful prose filter.
monkmartinez 13y ago
Chilling: William Binney in Dec 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM … 20 to 30 trillion communications "stored" #Prism #NSA
pvdm 13y ago
His body language give him away. That is why we have actors in position of power because they need to perform for the puppetiers in front of the gullible.

mtoddh 13y ago

And my guess is the following video is an example of why the NYT is now saying that Obama no longer has any credibility on this issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6fnfVJzZT4

rdl 13y ago
I would have voted for that guy (except for "FISA works!", but enh). I'd even be ok with ditching the 22nd if we could get that guy as President. I wonder what happened -- was it all a cynical ploy, or was there some secret (real or fake) information about how without wholesale monitoring we'd all instantly be destroyed, or what.
- Sven7 13y ago
  Big data is hard to ignore.
- flinty 13y ago
  Its easy to say the right things from the outside but when you enter the sausage factory you see how the sausage is made and realize how hard/impossible it is to really change things
tdfx 13y ago
I cringed when he mentioned the National Security Letters. Didn't even realize he was supposed to be getting rid of those, too.

quackerhacker 13y ago

I've been monitored too, but did you really believe that all of the activities we do online weren't monitored...or do you just believe (like I did before I got convicted), that the gov won't bother with us. This is just more reason why bills like CISPA need to be revised or blocked. The gov already knows what we do, but it just comes down to what they can prove in court.

Taylorious 13y ago

I laughed at how incredibly shifty the General is when he "answers."

btilly 13y ago
There was an interesting analysis at one point correlating what CEOs said when presenting their financial statements with whether those statements later suffered major negative revisions. It would be interesting to have this automated and available in real time. (Of course people would learn the value of making it trigger level. But you can include whether the person by virtue of their position likely has that level of awareness...)
mladenkovacevic 13y ago
Seriously... You'd think of all the billions of dollars that go into military training they'd be able to put up a few bucks to teach this guy how to lie a little more believably
- adventured 13y ago
  The guy probably hasn't had to worry about such things for decades. He's an operations bureaucrat, and probably someone above him decided they could afford to burn him if the shit hit the fan (and by this point, they probably already knew some shit was heading toward the fan).
  - vidarh 13y ago
    More likely: He, and everyone else involved in this, know that it doesn't matter if everyone knows the answer is a lie - the likelihood of any negative consequences is pretty much zero. First, the odds that anyone will be able to provide sufficient proof to cause any problems is minimal, secondly, if they are: State secrets privilege. Poof goes that problem. The only real challenge would be a massive public uproar suitably close to an election that someone needs to be sacrificed, and how likely is that really? It's not a surprise that this is happening; the only surprise is that anything resembling proof has leaked. What are the odds that this will suddenly tip the balance and cause sufficient lasting outrage?

samstave 13y ago

At a very minimum - this guy needs to be tried for perjury and removed from his post. And millions of americans should sign a petition to have this happen.

ihsw 13y ago
If you're referring to online petitions then you needn't waste your time, there are already petitions to make sure this never happens. It's called US Senate elections[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,... That bullshit called the Presidential elections? It's a dog and pony show.
- cinquemb 13y ago
  There's a famous quote somewhere about where political power really comes from… I look to history (and present day actions) and it seems like a fitting solution to meaningful representation. Then again, years later we could be right back where we started… Hint: The last bit I left out rhymes with "carol of the sun" ;)
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    I don't know what quote you are referring to, but here is my favourite one. "You don’t know what order with freedom means! You only know what revolt against oppression is! You don’t know that the rod, discipline, violence, the state and government can only be sustained because of you and because of your lack of socially creative powers that develop order within liberty!" --- Gustav Landauer It humbles me every time I read it, because to resist or to rebel against existing things is easy, at least for me.. but to actually put thought and effort into things "building a better world" in a sustainable and organized way, to be creative in co-operation and compromising with others, to get out of all these comfort zones, etc. It's a lifetime effort, and none of us will see all the fruits of it, or ever be sure the fruit won't be snatched up, so the default is to not even try, except a little bit here and there. It's like living hand to mouth, but in a political sense. It's all just reaction, and that sucks.

chailatte 13y ago

There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now president, Barack W Bush. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent.

jcrites 13y ago

I am not defending the program. But doesn't the program only collect data when there is a 51% percent confidence or greater that the source is foreign? That's a bit slippery, but could be an explanation for his statement.

serge2k 13y ago
Gee, I deserve to be constantly monitored for daring to legally enter your entry in order to be a productive member of your society. Thanks for that.

aneth4 13y ago

Wow. He's not even a good liar. You can see all sorts of soothing behavior and micro-expressions. Contrast that to his direct confident demeanor when he's telling evasive truths. Clapper is the Director of National Intelligence

lmg643 13y ago
Given all the contortions that politicians have to make just to get through the day, it wouldn't surprise me that Obama truly believes what he said back in 2007, but once he got into power he got an education on what the CIA/NSA is doing and he realized that either he can try to live up to these values and likely cause wildly unpredictable outcomes (some positive, some negative), or he can let it continue, given there were enough plausibly compelling reasons, despite the potential for abuse. thus - status quo reigns. truly change we can believe in, and a good example of how power corrupts. the military-industrial complex has a life of its own. thank you eisenhower.

jhart3333 13y ago

chailatte, your comment is dead. I think it triggered the beautiful prose filter.

monkmartinez 13y ago

Chilling: William Binney in Dec 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuET0kpHoyM … 20 to 30 trillion communications "stored" #Prism #NSA

pvdm 13y ago

His body language give him away. That is why we have actors in position of power because they need to perform for the puppetiers in front of the gullible.