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As a Brit, can I ask: Why don't I see Fox "News" presenters, and the like, crying daily on screen about the death of the USA over things like this? Unlike the

by alan_cx 13y ago

As a Brit, can I ask: Why don't I see Fox "News" presenters, and the like, crying daily on screen about the death of the USA over things like this? Unlike the birth certificate of Obama or attempts to being free health care to people, this really is destroying US citizen's basic rights. But no Fox tears and hysterics. Why is that? I mean, surely this is a fantastic way to attack the "hated" Obama, surely. Aren't they all about "freedom"? Isn't this a huge open goal for the right? From where I sit it looks like a very weird contradiction. Surely this is more of a threat than say gun controls? Clearly I'm missing something, but what?

nkurz 13y ago
I'm American, and don't know if I have any more insight than you do. I think the issue is that both major parties in the US (at least publicly) prioritize security over privacy. Fox doesn't cry out about this because Fox viewers are rarely in uproar about such trade offs. If anything, I'd guess this policy has greater support among mainstream Republicans than Democrats. Privacy issues are viewed in an entirely different light than gun control, and are frequently a darling of the left. For example, the EFF (source of this article) is considered as an extremely liberal left organization, and hated by many conservatives. Perhaps the feeling is that as long as you can maintain control of the government you and your side have nothing to worry about, and the guns are there in case you somehow lose control of that government.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Understood. Does seem to me though that there is little idealogical or political consistency in what the left and right campaign for. I'm now wondering if it is the same here in the UK. That, I'll have to give some thought to.
- pnathan 13y ago
  > the EFF (source of this article) is considered as an extremely liberal left organization, and hated by many conservatives. Seriously? I've never seen it catch flak for being liberal. I've always tagged it as libertarian and off the spectrum.
  - nkurz 13y ago
    I agree that they don't fit in well with the standard American left-right spectrum, and agree that they are closer to libertarian than liberal. But yes, I think they are perceived to be in similar position as the ACLU: somewhere to the left of the left. While in theory both of these organizations might be embraced by conservatives as protecting constitutional rights, in practice both are "liberal causes". An odd citation, but appropriate considering I'm arguing about perception rather than reality: "The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a liberal and libertarian organization which promotes the protection of personal rights on the internet, particularly privacy and free speech. Category: Liberal Organizations" http://www.conservapedia.com/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation http://www.conservapedia.com/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation
adventured 13y ago
Well you're slightly wrong. See: Judge Andrew Napolitano (former New Jersey Superior Court Judge). He's a host on Fox News and does in fact regularly make an issue of these types of abuses. Take a look at his books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Napolitano#Writing_career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Napolitano#Writing_caree... Fox News is a 2/3 conservative bastion (and they're for big government, big spending, big military, big debt), but it also has a small mixture of libertarian "extreme right wing" Republican views as well (and those people are against the police state, against big government, pro civil liberties, etc).
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Hang on, conservatives for big government? Im sure I remember "big government" being the evil that was being fought off when Obama care was a big deal. Wasn't that conservatives? Hands up. Im confused!!
  - mercurial 13y ago
    As far as I can tell, conservatives are pro-anything-with-guns (Homeland Security, big military...), but against welfare and taxes for the rich. Democrats are pro-welfare and taxes for the rich, but just as happy to invade your privacy or bomb the crap out of your family if you are a bearded guy with a turban.
  - meddlepal 13y ago
    Fascism is a conservative ideology and believes in a fairly big government. Conservative and liberal, particularly in American politics, are overloaded terms at times referring to social, economic and organizational preferences without making a blanket statement that covers all the three.

by alan_cx 13y ago

nkurz 13y ago

I'm American, and don't know if I have any more insight than you do. I think the issue is that both major parties in the US (at least publicly) prioritize security over privacy. Fox doesn't cry out about this because Fox viewers are rarely in uproar about such trade offs. If anything, I'd guess this policy has greater support among mainstream Republicans than Democrats. Privacy issues are viewed in an entirely different light than gun control, and are frequently a darling of the left. For example, the EFF (source of this article) is considered as an extremely liberal left organization, and hated by many conservatives. Perhaps the feeling is that as long as you can maintain control of the government you and your side have nothing to worry about, and the guns are there in case you somehow lose control of that government.

alan_cx 13y ago
Understood. Does seem to me though that there is little idealogical or political consistency in what the left and right campaign for. I'm now wondering if it is the same here in the UK. That, I'll have to give some thought to.
pnathan 13y ago
> the EFF (source of this article) is considered as an extremely liberal left organization, and hated by many conservatives. Seriously? I've never seen it catch flak for being liberal. I've always tagged it as libertarian and off the spectrum.
- nkurz 13y ago
  I agree that they don't fit in well with the standard American left-right spectrum, and agree that they are closer to libertarian than liberal. But yes, I think they are perceived to be in similar position as the ACLU: somewhere to the left of the left. While in theory both of these organizations might be embraced by conservatives as protecting constitutional rights, in practice both are "liberal causes". An odd citation, but appropriate considering I'm arguing about perception rather than reality: "The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is a liberal and libertarian organization which promotes the protection of personal rights on the internet, particularly privacy and free speech. Category: Liberal Organizations" http://www.conservapedia.com/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation http://www.conservapedia.com/Electronic_Frontier_Foundation

adventured 13y ago

Well you're slightly wrong. See: Judge Andrew Napolitano (former New Jersey Superior Court Judge). He's a host on Fox News and does in fact regularly make an issue of these types of abuses. Take a look at his books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Napolitano#Writing_career http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Napolitano#Writing_caree... Fox News is a 2/3 conservative bastion (and they're for big government, big spending, big military, big debt), but it also has a small mixture of libertarian "extreme right wing" Republican views as well (and those people are against the police state, against big government, pro civil liberties, etc).

alan_cx 13y ago
Hang on, conservatives for big government? Im sure I remember "big government" being the evil that was being fought off when Obama care was a big deal. Wasn't that conservatives? Hands up. Im confused!!
- mercurial 13y ago
  As far as I can tell, conservatives are pro-anything-with-guns (Homeland Security, big military...), but against welfare and taxes for the rich. Democrats are pro-welfare and taxes for the rich, but just as happy to invade your privacy or bomb the crap out of your family if you are a bearded guy with a turban.
- meddlepal 13y ago
  Fascism is a conservative ideology and believes in a fairly big government. Conservative and liberal, particularly in American politics, are overloaded terms at times referring to social, economic and organizational preferences without making a blanket statement that covers all the three.