4 ms·

A lot of comments in this thread area calling for the head of Verizon and recommending boycotts, but for how much of this is Verizon really at fault? If the NSA

A lot of comments in this thread area calling for the head of Verizon and recommending boycotts, but for how much of this is Verizon really at fault? If the NSA comes knocking and tells you to turn over X, you can't exactly say "no", can you? More to the point, it's highly unlikely that this is an issue unique to Verizon; it's just the only one we've heard about so far.

declan 13y ago
Right. It's a boilerplate order. Some reliable reports say there are 50 companies that are NSA data suppliers. They request these orders as legal cover.
newman314 13y ago
So roll over and take it like a champ? If everyone thought this way, there would have been no revolution. At some point, enough is enough and I say that that point is way past.
- austenallred 13y ago
  I don't know what the solution is, but I doubt it's "switch my service provider to AT&T."
  - mercurial 13y ago
    Especially since AT&T data is probably routed to the NSA as well.
- rytis 13y ago
  You reckon people are going to revolt? I have serious doubts about that.
  - adventured 13y ago
    Only when the social contract is violated will there be revolt. That contract, roughly 75 years old now, is currently on death notice, being funded solely by a printing press. Simply put, the promises can never be met. If interest rates on US debt were just a mere 5% (reasonable given the risk), the $800+ billion per year in interest would instantly 'bankrupt' the government (whether that default occurs directly or via inflation). If one understands much about economics, one understands this outcome is inevitable, and likely sooner than later. Cheap debt binged and not repaid, becomes an expensive anchor around the neck eventually.
    - freehunter 13y ago
      Can the US government really go bankrupt, though? I thought that was a central point that Reagan, Cheney, and Obama have made. It doesn't matter how much we spend because federal debt means nothing. The creditors can't really call it in without mutually assured destruction. Our debt is a WMD and no one in their right mind would pull that trigger.
- ne0codex 13y ago
  Well, if enough people say "enough is enough"... what next. My mobile device is tied to my phone, I have some work discounts attached to my service, I have a contract (which will gain fees for early termination). These issues make it highly improbably to truly do any action (when it comes to businesses). However, there is a way politically to actually get something done, but that requires the masses to actually organize and take action.
  - vijayr 13y ago
    may be start by refusing to sign contracts for anything other than what is absolutely necessary (like apartment lease, for example)? don't sign contracts for gyms, phones, cable etc? that would make it a tiny bit easier to switch between services?
  - vijayr 13y ago
    may be start by refusing to sign contracts for anything other than what is absolutely necessary (like apartment lease, for example)? don't sign contracts for gyms, phones, cable etc? that would make it a tiny bit easier to switch between services?
  - BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
    There won't be an "enough is enough" pushback in the U.S. because the kind of privacy we're discussing is not valued by the public. The average response to hearing news like this is something like: "Unbelievable. Typical rotten politicians, I tell ya. So anyway, are we still on for seeing the new Iron Man movie this weekend?" The segment of the population that feels strongly about these issues is small and ineffective. In fact, that's how it works with many negative government decisions. How many of your non-developer friends would participate in an uproar about software patent policy? I wonder how many other niches are facing similar situations.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- return0 13y ago
  It's kind of frightening that a boycott can be considered a better course to defend civil rights than democracy.
Trufa 13y ago
On the other hand, if you boycott Verizon to the point when (for an example's sake) they are broke, the next business the NSA comes knocking at the door will definitely be more reluctant. If you can get into the businessman's head that the NSA is bad for business, they'll have a bad time pulling this kind of thing off.
- ne0codex 13y ago
  The trouble is, that's easier said than done. However, if there were any action feasible enough to do that would make it possible to: "get into the businessman's head that the NSA is bad for business." Then that will definitely be the way to go.
  - Trufa 13y ago
    I don't think there is one action that will accomplish that, it has to be prolonged, consistent and proactive action.
- stedaniels 13y ago
  Because we all know the NSA are a nice friendly bunch who will only be applying pressure at a corporate level and won't apply any pressure at all on a personal level to any of the key individuals in control of the company.
baddox 13y ago
So let us boycott the government! Oh wait, unlike Verizon, the government will lock you up for doing that.
- ojii 13y ago
  You can easily boycott the government without getting locked up: move to another country!
  - kriro 13y ago
    For US citizens it is really hard to get rid of their citizenship. And you pretty much have to pay US taxes as long as you are a citizen no matter where you live (and thus implicitly support the government).
    - sigkill 13y ago
      >For US citizens it is really hard to get rid of their citizenship Not sure about that. I've heard that you just need to go the embassy and you can get rid of it quite easily. However getting citizenship of another country may be a bit difficult for anyone in these times. You don't really want to remain stateless right?

declan 13y ago

Right. It's a boilerplate order. Some reliable reports say there are 50 companies that are NSA data suppliers. They request these orders as legal cover.

newman314 13y ago

So roll over and take it like a champ? If everyone thought this way, there would have been no revolution. At some point, enough is enough and I say that that point is way past.

austenallred 13y ago
I don't know what the solution is, but I doubt it's "switch my service provider to AT&T."
- mercurial 13y ago
  Especially since AT&T data is probably routed to the NSA as well.
rytis 13y ago
You reckon people are going to revolt? I have serious doubts about that.
- adventured 13y ago
  Only when the social contract is violated will there be revolt. That contract, roughly 75 years old now, is currently on death notice, being funded solely by a printing press. Simply put, the promises can never be met. If interest rates on US debt were just a mere 5% (reasonable given the risk), the $800+ billion per year in interest would instantly 'bankrupt' the government (whether that default occurs directly or via inflation). If one understands much about economics, one understands this outcome is inevitable, and likely sooner than later. Cheap debt binged and not repaid, becomes an expensive anchor around the neck eventually.
  - freehunter 13y ago
    Can the US government really go bankrupt, though? I thought that was a central point that Reagan, Cheney, and Obama have made. It doesn't matter how much we spend because federal debt means nothing. The creditors can't really call it in without mutually assured destruction. Our debt is a WMD and no one in their right mind would pull that trigger.
ne0codex 13y ago
Well, if enough people say "enough is enough"... what next. My mobile device is tied to my phone, I have some work discounts attached to my service, I have a contract (which will gain fees for early termination). These issues make it highly improbably to truly do any action (when it comes to businesses). However, there is a way politically to actually get something done, but that requires the masses to actually organize and take action.
- vijayr 13y ago
  may be start by refusing to sign contracts for anything other than what is absolutely necessary (like apartment lease, for example)? don't sign contracts for gyms, phones, cable etc? that would make it a tiny bit easier to switch between services?
- vijayr 13y ago
  may be start by refusing to sign contracts for anything other than what is absolutely necessary (like apartment lease, for example)? don't sign contracts for gyms, phones, cable etc? that would make it a tiny bit easier to switch between services?
- BHSPitMonkey 13y ago
  There won't be an "enough is enough" pushback in the U.S. because the kind of privacy we're discussing is not valued by the public. The average response to hearing news like this is something like: "Unbelievable. Typical rotten politicians, I tell ya. So anyway, are we still on for seeing the new Iron Man movie this weekend?" The segment of the population that feels strongly about these issues is small and ineffective. In fact, that's how it works with many negative government decisions. How many of your non-developer friends would participate in an uproar about software patent policy? I wonder how many other niches are facing similar situations.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
return0 13y ago
It's kind of frightening that a boycott can be considered a better course to defend civil rights than democracy.

Trufa 13y ago

On the other hand, if you boycott Verizon to the point when (for an example's sake) they are broke, the next business the NSA comes knocking at the door will definitely be more reluctant. If you can get into the businessman's head that the NSA is bad for business, they'll have a bad time pulling this kind of thing off.

ne0codex 13y ago
The trouble is, that's easier said than done. However, if there were any action feasible enough to do that would make it possible to: "get into the businessman's head that the NSA is bad for business." Then that will definitely be the way to go.
- Trufa 13y ago
  I don't think there is one action that will accomplish that, it has to be prolonged, consistent and proactive action.
stedaniels 13y ago
Because we all know the NSA are a nice friendly bunch who will only be applying pressure at a corporate level and won't apply any pressure at all on a personal level to any of the key individuals in control of the company.

baddox 13y ago

So let us boycott the government! Oh wait, unlike Verizon, the government will lock you up for doing that.

ojii 13y ago
You can easily boycott the government without getting locked up: move to another country!
- kriro 13y ago
  For US citizens it is really hard to get rid of their citizenship. And you pretty much have to pay US taxes as long as you are a citizen no matter where you live (and thus implicitly support the government).
  - sigkill 13y ago
    >For US citizens it is really hard to get rid of their citizenship Not sure about that. I've heard that you just need to go the embassy and you can get rid of it quite easily. However getting citizenship of another country may be a bit difficult for anyone in these times. You don't really want to remain stateless right?