10 ms·

A Painful Decision

59 points by ph0rque 18y ago

swombat 18y ago
For some context, Mike Gunderloy (author of this article) is an extremely prolific rails activist and community member. This is not some random unknown making a fuss, it's a very well respected, very active, very productive member of the rails community making a pretty pointed statement and putting his money where his mouth is. Some further background: http://dyepot-teapot.com/2009/04/25/dear-fellow-rubyists/ http://dyepot-teapot.com/2009/04/25/dear-fellow-rubyists/ http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individual http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individua... http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/40-alpha-male-programmers-arent-keeping-women-out http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/40-alpha-male-programmers-... And, the slides themslves (NSFW): http://www.slideshare.net/mattetti/couchdb-perform-like-a-pr0n-star?type=presentation http://www.slideshare.net/mattetti/couchdb-perform-like-a-pr...
- michael_dorfman 18y ago
  ...and before becoming a member of the rails community, Mike was an extremely prolific and valued member of the .NET community. Whoever gets him next should consider themselves lucky to have him.
- russell 18y ago
  Unbelievable. What kind of idiot makes a soft porn presentation in an age when nude calendars are banned from auto shops. I grew up when off color stories were ok with professionals so long as ladies werent present. It was ok to call women 'honey' and make suggestive remarks. I was glad to see that go, along with racist jokes. Women belong in every enterprise. If the screening process is passing women by because they are not technical ninjas or dont want to work 80 hour weeks or dont do so well in alpha male interviews, the group is going to suffer because it is going to miss out on a diversity of skills and viewpoints.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    Unbelievable. What kind of idiot makes a soft porn presentation in an age when nude calendars are banned from auto shops? "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Seriously, not everyone is that hung-up about sex. Anyway, it is amazing how much damage the community is doing to itself over a 20 minute presentation by one guy. If you resign your positions and spend pages and pages talking about it, you're just going to encourage others to do the same. This guy has power now.
    - batasrki 18y ago
      That's the problem here. The presentation itself may have been tasteless and offensive to some and quite the opposite to others. That's not at issue here. The issue here is that people who lead by example in the community have completely turned a blind eye to those who were offended. A sincere apology and a few words saying that some attention will be paid towards these things in the future would have sufficed. The arrogance of the prominent members is what's spreading these flames. They have said publicly that there's no problem here and that those offended should have just left. As Mike pointed out, some more serious stuff was said privately. So, everyone, please understand. It's not the slides themselves, it's the reaction after the controversy.
      - plinkplonk 18y ago
        "The issue here is that people who lead by example in the community have completely turned a blind eye to those who were offended. " It is probably just me, but I hate these kind of group think coercion efforts. Maybe (just as a thought experiment, bear with me before reaching for that downvote button) are there circumstances in which "turning a blind eye to those who were offended." is the right thing to do? Just think about it for a few seconds. I am not sure anyone has a right not to be offended. Let me repeat that. No one has the right to insist that other people live in such a manner as not to give them the slightest offense.. If some of the people involved genuinely felt that "there is no problem" and other people say that "no there is a problem", and there is no consensus, then the best that can be done is to say, ok folks, each of you act according to what you think is right (and suffer any consequences therefrom) and we'll see who prevails. "A sincere apology and a few words saying that some attention will be paid towards these things in the future would have sufficed." This assumes that the apology needs to be made at all. For the apology to be "sincere" the person who is supposed to apologize has to feel he has done something wrong, and more importantly care that other people got offended. DHH for one obviously doesn't care what other people think, and I respect the man for being consistent in his beliefs and not backing down before people trying to lay some pc guilt trip on him. I am just a little wary of the "no one should be offended in any manner" idea. In the end, this is open source software. "Shut up and write code" is probably more useful advice than all this political correctness laden hand wringing. If people who didn't like the talk had just walked out, no one would know or care if some guy somewhere made some off kilter presentation. The "people who lead by example in the community" are as or more intelligent than the whiners and are just as free to make up their minds on whether to give any credence to the complaints or not. Some of the "leaders by example" seem to have concluded that they don't accept the validity of the complaints. So what? Don't they have the right to do so? If someone doesn't like the way Rails framework or "community" is progressing, they can fork it. Stop submitting patches or features. Don't use it. Write an alternative framework, possibly in another language. Just don't whine for blog post after blog post on what other people should do to conform to your notions of what is right. You wouldn't like it if other people forced their notions of what was right on to you and forced you to apologize when you think there is no reason to do so. Ok Thought Experiment over. Back to normal programming (pun intended). I just thought examining both sides of the issue is important.
hvs 18y ago
I'm not a member of the Rails community, so I'm curious as to why this "Women in Programming" issue seems to focused solely on that community. Women are underrepresented in almost all development communities and it seems odd to focus on one specific community. It would be strange to talk about "the lack of female representation in the C++ community" rather than the development community in general, so why is this different? I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm legitimately curious.
- swombat 18y ago
  Actually, just last week there was a panel on "women in technology" at Geeknrolla, so it's definitely not a rails-only issue. More info here: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-on-the-balancing-tech-culture-debate-geeknrolla/ http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-o...
  - hvs 18y ago
    Oh, I definitely don't believe it is a Rails-only issue, it just seemed odd that the loudest discussion going on right now seemed to be focused on Rails. It just feels odd to attach it to a specific technology.
    - curoi 18y ago
      It most certainly isn't a Rails-only issue. Women in technology seems to be a perennial discussion point with little change in the composition nor the results. One reason that Rails seems to be the loudest right now is because Rails attracts (and was begun) by very outspoken, opinionated, people.
      - dkarl 18y ago
        I think some progress is being made in terms of making workplaces more hospitable to women. Sexual harassment has been a recognized issue for a long time now, but geeks consider themselves too passive and harmless to harass anybody, so they have been slow to catch on. The underrepresentation of women in technology has stimulated some self-reflection about how the workplace atmosphere might put off technologically capable and interested women.
lucraft 18y ago
Vote up if you're part of the silent majority that is not interested in this discussion.
Zoe_Brain 18y ago
There's a number of issues here. First, men and women tend to think differently, and have talents in different areas, just as men tend to be taller. This is a matter of biology, and on that basis alone, a reasonable mix in IT would be biased towards a greater proportion of males, depending on the exact developmental role. About 2:1. Except it's more like 8:1 or even 12:1, rather than 2:1.In open source, 50:1. It's no accident that there are more women in interface design, project management and architecture within IT either. Remember though that this is all statistical, just as there are short men and tall women, you should always look at individuals as individuals, not as stereotypes. Talents between the ears are what's important, and chromosomes are a poor guide to those. Part of the problem is the discouragement talented girls experience at school because IT is a "male field". Part of it is that businesses are set up with men in mind, with stereotypically male aspects of bonding after work, of stakhanovite hours with no concession for having a Life, with hierachies and competition for "fastest gun in the west" rather than teamwork. The latter is particularly important in Open Source development. Part of it is straight old-fashioned misogyny and the glass ceiling, but I think that's not as important as the other issues. It can get pretty bad though as a consequence of the other causes, trust me on that one. I invite all the straight guys to imagine what it would be like in a gay-only environment, with gay porn posters and bitchy jokes about "breeders", plus the occasional overt sexual harrassment and almost universal attempts to flirt. That's what it's like for many women in IT, all the time. It's not as bad as it was. I'm 51, and can remember when things were a lot worse. Female medical students are no longer required to sign a pledge not to get married if they enter med school, as they were when I was in grade school. But Blacks don't have separate drinking fountains either, as they did then. "Better" does not mean "Good" or even "minimally acceptable".

59 points by ph0rque 18y ago

For some context, Mike Gunderloy (author of this article) is an extremely prolific rails activist and community member. This is not some random unknown making a fuss, it's a very well respected, very active, very productive member of the rails community making a pretty pointed statement and putting his money where his mouth is. Some further background: http://dyepot-teapot.com/2009/04/25/dear-fellow-rubyists/ http://dyepot-teapot.com/2009/04/25/dear-fellow-rubyists/ http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individual http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/39-im-an-r-rated-individua... http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/40-alpha-male-programmers-arent-keeping-women-out http://www.loudthinking.com/posts/40-alpha-male-programmers-... And, the slides themslves (NSFW): http://www.slideshare.net/mattetti/couchdb-perform-like-a-pr0n-star?type=presentation http://www.slideshare.net/mattetti/couchdb-perform-like-a-pr...

michael_dorfman 18y ago
...and before becoming a member of the rails community, Mike was an extremely prolific and valued member of the .NET community. Whoever gets him next should consider themselves lucky to have him.
russell 18y ago
Unbelievable. What kind of idiot makes a soft porn presentation in an age when nude calendars are banned from auto shops. I grew up when off color stories were ok with professionals so long as ladies werent present. It was ok to call women 'honey' and make suggestive remarks. I was glad to see that go, along with racist jokes. Women belong in every enterprise. If the screening process is passing women by because they are not technical ninjas or dont want to work 80 hour weeks or dont do so well in alpha male interviews, the group is going to suffer because it is going to miss out on a diversity of skills and viewpoints.
- jrockway 18y ago
  Unbelievable. What kind of idiot makes a soft porn presentation in an age when nude calendars are banned from auto shops? "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." Seriously, not everyone is that hung-up about sex. Anyway, it is amazing how much damage the community is doing to itself over a 20 minute presentation by one guy. If you resign your positions and spend pages and pages talking about it, you're just going to encourage others to do the same. This guy has power now.
  - batasrki 18y ago
    That's the problem here. The presentation itself may have been tasteless and offensive to some and quite the opposite to others. That's not at issue here. The issue here is that people who lead by example in the community have completely turned a blind eye to those who were offended. A sincere apology and a few words saying that some attention will be paid towards these things in the future would have sufficed. The arrogance of the prominent members is what's spreading these flames. They have said publicly that there's no problem here and that those offended should have just left. As Mike pointed out, some more serious stuff was said privately. So, everyone, please understand. It's not the slides themselves, it's the reaction after the controversy.
    - plinkplonk 18y ago
      "The issue here is that people who lead by example in the community have completely turned a blind eye to those who were offended. " It is probably just me, but I hate these kind of group think coercion efforts. Maybe (just as a thought experiment, bear with me before reaching for that downvote button) are there circumstances in which "turning a blind eye to those who were offended." is the right thing to do? Just think about it for a few seconds. I am not sure anyone has a right not to be offended. Let me repeat that. No one has the right to insist that other people live in such a manner as not to give them the slightest offense.. If some of the people involved genuinely felt that "there is no problem" and other people say that "no there is a problem", and there is no consensus, then the best that can be done is to say, ok folks, each of you act according to what you think is right (and suffer any consequences therefrom) and we'll see who prevails. "A sincere apology and a few words saying that some attention will be paid towards these things in the future would have sufficed." This assumes that the apology needs to be made at all. For the apology to be "sincere" the person who is supposed to apologize has to feel he has done something wrong, and more importantly care that other people got offended. DHH for one obviously doesn't care what other people think, and I respect the man for being consistent in his beliefs and not backing down before people trying to lay some pc guilt trip on him. I am just a little wary of the "no one should be offended in any manner" idea. In the end, this is open source software. "Shut up and write code" is probably more useful advice than all this political correctness laden hand wringing. If people who didn't like the talk had just walked out, no one would know or care if some guy somewhere made some off kilter presentation. The "people who lead by example in the community" are as or more intelligent than the whiners and are just as free to make up their minds on whether to give any credence to the complaints or not. Some of the "leaders by example" seem to have concluded that they don't accept the validity of the complaints. So what? Don't they have the right to do so? If someone doesn't like the way Rails framework or "community" is progressing, they can fork it. Stop submitting patches or features. Don't use it. Write an alternative framework, possibly in another language. Just don't whine for blog post after blog post on what other people should do to conform to your notions of what is right. You wouldn't like it if other people forced their notions of what was right on to you and forced you to apologize when you think there is no reason to do so. Ok Thought Experiment over. Back to normal programming (pun intended). I just thought examining both sides of the issue is important.

hvs 18y ago

I'm not a member of the Rails community, so I'm curious as to why this "Women in Programming" issue seems to focused solely on that community. Women are underrepresented in almost all development communities and it seems odd to focus on one specific community. It would be strange to talk about "the lack of female representation in the C++ community" rather than the development community in general, so why is this different? I'm not trying to stir the pot or anything, I'm legitimately curious.

swombat 18y ago
Actually, just last week there was a panel on "women in technology" at Geeknrolla, so it's definitely not a rails-only issue. More info here: http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-on-the-balancing-tech-culture-debate-geeknrolla/ http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/04/23/just-a-girl-why-we-put-o...
- hvs 18y ago
  Oh, I definitely don't believe it is a Rails-only issue, it just seemed odd that the loudest discussion going on right now seemed to be focused on Rails. It just feels odd to attach it to a specific technology.
  - curoi 18y ago
    It most certainly isn't a Rails-only issue. Women in technology seems to be a perennial discussion point with little change in the composition nor the results. One reason that Rails seems to be the loudest right now is because Rails attracts (and was begun) by very outspoken, opinionated, people.
    - dkarl 18y ago
      I think some progress is being made in terms of making workplaces more hospitable to women. Sexual harassment has been a recognized issue for a long time now, but geeks consider themselves too passive and harmless to harass anybody, so they have been slow to catch on. The underrepresentation of women in technology has stimulated some self-reflection about how the workplace atmosphere might put off technologically capable and interested women.

lucraft 18y ago

Vote up if you're part of the silent majority that is not interested in this discussion.

Zoe_Brain 18y ago

There's a number of issues here. First, men and women tend to think differently, and have talents in different areas, just as men tend to be taller. This is a matter of biology, and on that basis alone, a reasonable mix in IT would be biased towards a greater proportion of males, depending on the exact developmental role. About 2:1. Except it's more like 8:1 or even 12:1, rather than 2:1.In open source, 50:1. It's no accident that there are more women in interface design, project management and architecture within IT either. Remember though that this is all statistical, just as there are short men and tall women, you should always look at individuals as individuals, not as stereotypes. Talents between the ears are what's important, and chromosomes are a poor guide to those. Part of the problem is the discouragement talented girls experience at school because IT is a "male field". Part of it is that businesses are set up with men in mind, with stereotypically male aspects of bonding after work, of stakhanovite hours with no concession for having a Life, with hierachies and competition for "fastest gun in the west" rather than teamwork. The latter is particularly important in Open Source development. Part of it is straight old-fashioned misogyny and the glass ceiling, but I think that's not as important as the other issues. It can get pretty bad though as a consequence of the other causes, trust me on that one. I invite all the straight guys to imagine what it would be like in a gay-only environment, with gay porn posters and bitchy jokes about "breeders", plus the occasional overt sexual harrassment and almost universal attempts to flirt. That's what it's like for many women in IT, all the time. It's not as bad as it was. I'm 51, and can remember when things were a lot worse. Female medical students are no longer required to sign a pledge not to get married if they enter med school, as they were when I was in grade school. But Blacks don't have separate drinking fountains either, as they did then. "Better" does not mean "Good" or even "minimally acceptable".