5 ms·

No, it's not just you. I'm genuinely curious to see how HN's pro-Singapore members will respond to this — particularly, as you observe, the ones who are otherwi

by rosser 13y ago

No, it's not just you. I'm genuinely curious to see how HN's pro-Singapore members will respond to this — particularly, as you observe, the ones who are otherwise ostensibly very libertarian.

jerf 13y ago
What exactly does a libertarian supporter of Singapore look like, I wonder? Isn't Singapore sort of the opposite of a libertarian country? Are you sure such a beast exists? It seems like "libertarian" in the last six months is being used more and more often as a contentless slur on HN. Not even with the standard stereotypes from those who disagree (selfish, greedy, etc.), I mean just flat-out content-free, no apparent understanding that it is a word with some meaning (even if ultimately as fuzzy as any other major political label). "What about Singapore?" seems like a decent challenge to a libertarian. (I'm just using that observation that that is a fair, nontrivial question to further my main point. It's not a request for 150 messages providing a libertarian critique of Singapore; I've got one, thanks.)
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  There are real libertarians on HN, it is mostly a belief in a niche economic system that is mostly the opposite of communism. But many people are confused about the word, and a lot of young disillusioned Republicans have latched onto the movement without truly understanding its principles. I always get giddy when a libertarian on reddit points Singapore out as the kind of country they want to live in: low taxes, high economic freedom! But that's only because they don't realize its an actual police state! (whereas we could argue that the USA is only partially a police state) They then move onto talking about Hong Kong...
jlgreco 13y ago
The go-to response to criticism of Singapore, if you don't immediately concede the discussion, seems to be "It isn't like other places that you are use to. It is very different."
- crdoconnor 13y ago
  One of the most common criticisms of the place does seem to be that it is some sort of police state or fascist dictatorship. Mostly these accusations are made by people who have never even been to Singapore and never experienced a police state. A lot of US criticism sounds awfully ironic, too, when you consider that the things being strongly criticized - lack of certain freedoms, for example - are often worse (or not much better) in America.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Yep, that is the sort of response I am referring to. Also, it seems like you find "not as bad as America" to be more comforting than I do.
    - crdoconnor 13y ago
      >it seems like you find "not as bad as America" to be more comforting than I do. Nope, not in the slightest. This is your bias talking. It has nothing to do with me. I hate this law as much as anybody.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        In that case, I don't know what you are driving at by bringing up America.
        crdoconnor 13y ago
        This is an American website with a predominantly American audience. I'd have thought this made the reason for the comparison fairly obvious.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Many of us don't live in America, especially at this time of the day.
eru 13y ago
> [...] particularly, as you observe, the ones who are otherwise ostensibly very libertarian. You might find http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/neocameralism-and-escalator-of.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/neocame... interesting. (Moldbug is crazy, but sometimes interesting.)
crdoconnor 13y ago
I guess I qualify pro-Singapore since I live here and often seem to be defending it (albeit mostly from people who grossly misunderstand the place and/or think that the ability to chew gum is some sort of god given right). I hate the proposal, of course. Plain and simple. It still doesn't make PAP a fascist dictatorship or a police state, though. Plus, while censorship and control over the American media is a lot more subtly done, I think it's almost as pervasive as it is here.
- wnight 13y ago
  > while censorship and control over the American media You seem awful fixated on the USA. If you're trying to make Singapore sound nice, try setting your sights on a well run humanitarian country and discuss the parallels, don't talk about how the USA is bad too. > I hate the proposal, of course. Plain and simple. > It still doesn't make PAP a fascist dictatorship or a police state Depends. Mention gay people, lviing in Singapore, in a positive light, on your website in defiance of the law (assuming it passes) and see what they do. That's a better test than you assuring us it's just fine. But, at that, the basic intent is repressive and undemocratic. I think it is dictatorial for a government to restrict what their citizens can see, read, or hear because without informed consent people can't knowingly consent to being governed. That this is attempted - and not immediately responded to as attempted treason - is a sign a government already views its citizens as its property. If you'd set your sights a bit (err, a lot) higher than the USA you might find some countries or organizations or at least ideals worthy of respect and emulation.
yen223 13y ago
Why would libertarians support a country with one of the strongest governments in the world? Their ministers are among the mostly highly-paid officials in the world!
- gojomo 13y ago
  'Support' is not a binary thing in such a complicated domain as governance, society and culture. In many respects, Singapore has a small government which is efficient on the narrow set of things almost everyone agrees governments must do. That makes it worth learning from, in those respects. In particular and with regard to your point about highly-paid officials, I'd prefer the US government be much smaller, but I'd happily pay US officials far more if they did fewer things very well with businesslike efficiency. The things Singapore does well don't excuse their censorship... but every extant government is a mix of good and bad, legitimacy and abuse. We don't learn by rapidly sorting things into Manichean all-good or all-bad categories – even though activists of all creeds try to demand this sort of simplistic 'with us or against us' thinking. We learn by delaying judgement, studying the details, and being open to new information.

by rosser 13y ago

No, it's not just you. I'm genuinely curious to see how HN's pro-Singapore members will respond to this — particularly, as you observe, the ones who are otherwise ostensibly very libertarian.

jerf 13y ago

What exactly does a libertarian supporter of Singapore look like, I wonder? Isn't Singapore sort of the opposite of a libertarian country? Are you sure such a beast exists? It seems like "libertarian" in the last six months is being used more and more often as a contentless slur on HN. Not even with the standard stereotypes from those who disagree (selfish, greedy, etc.), I mean just flat-out content-free, no apparent understanding that it is a word with some meaning (even if ultimately as fuzzy as any other major political label). "What about Singapore?" seems like a decent challenge to a libertarian. (I'm just using that observation that that is a fair, nontrivial question to further my main point. It's not a request for 150 messages providing a libertarian critique of Singapore; I've got one, thanks.)

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
There are real libertarians on HN, it is mostly a belief in a niche economic system that is mostly the opposite of communism. But many people are confused about the word, and a lot of young disillusioned Republicans have latched onto the movement without truly understanding its principles. I always get giddy when a libertarian on reddit points Singapore out as the kind of country they want to live in: low taxes, high economic freedom! But that's only because they don't realize its an actual police state! (whereas we could argue that the USA is only partially a police state) They then move onto talking about Hong Kong...

jlgreco 13y ago

The go-to response to criticism of Singapore, if you don't immediately concede the discussion, seems to be "It isn't like other places that you are use to. It is very different."

crdoconnor 13y ago
One of the most common criticisms of the place does seem to be that it is some sort of police state or fascist dictatorship. Mostly these accusations are made by people who have never even been to Singapore and never experienced a police state. A lot of US criticism sounds awfully ironic, too, when you consider that the things being strongly criticized - lack of certain freedoms, for example - are often worse (or not much better) in America.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Yep, that is the sort of response I am referring to. Also, it seems like you find "not as bad as America" to be more comforting than I do.
  - crdoconnor 13y ago
    >it seems like you find "not as bad as America" to be more comforting than I do. Nope, not in the slightest. This is your bias talking. It has nothing to do with me. I hate this law as much as anybody.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      In that case, I don't know what you are driving at by bringing up America.
      - crdoconnor 13y ago
        This is an American website with a predominantly American audience. I'd have thought this made the reason for the comparison fairly obvious.
        seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Many of us don't live in America, especially at this time of the day.

eru 13y ago

> [...] particularly, as you observe, the ones who are otherwise ostensibly very libertarian. You might find http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/neocameralism-and-escalator-of.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/neocame... interesting. (Moldbug is crazy, but sometimes interesting.)

crdoconnor 13y ago

I guess I qualify pro-Singapore since I live here and often seem to be defending it (albeit mostly from people who grossly misunderstand the place and/or think that the ability to chew gum is some sort of god given right). I hate the proposal, of course. Plain and simple. It still doesn't make PAP a fascist dictatorship or a police state, though. Plus, while censorship and control over the American media is a lot more subtly done, I think it's almost as pervasive as it is here.

wnight 13y ago
> while censorship and control over the American media You seem awful fixated on the USA. If you're trying to make Singapore sound nice, try setting your sights on a well run humanitarian country and discuss the parallels, don't talk about how the USA is bad too. > I hate the proposal, of course. Plain and simple. > It still doesn't make PAP a fascist dictatorship or a police state Depends. Mention gay people, lviing in Singapore, in a positive light, on your website in defiance of the law (assuming it passes) and see what they do. That's a better test than you assuring us it's just fine. But, at that, the basic intent is repressive and undemocratic. I think it is dictatorial for a government to restrict what their citizens can see, read, or hear because without informed consent people can't knowingly consent to being governed. That this is attempted - and not immediately responded to as attempted treason - is a sign a government already views its citizens as its property. If you'd set your sights a bit (err, a lot) higher than the USA you might find some countries or organizations or at least ideals worthy of respect and emulation.

yen223 13y ago

Why would libertarians support a country with one of the strongest governments in the world? Their ministers are among the mostly highly-paid officials in the world!

gojomo 13y ago
'Support' is not a binary thing in such a complicated domain as governance, society and culture. In many respects, Singapore has a small government which is efficient on the narrow set of things almost everyone agrees governments must do. That makes it worth learning from, in those respects. In particular and with regard to your point about highly-paid officials, I'd prefer the US government be much smaller, but I'd happily pay US officials far more if they did fewer things very well with businesslike efficiency. The things Singapore does well don't excuse their censorship... but every extant government is a mix of good and bad, legitimacy and abuse. We don't learn by rapidly sorting things into Manichean all-good or all-bad categories – even though activists of all creeds try to demand this sort of simplistic 'with us or against us' thinking. We learn by delaying judgement, studying the details, and being open to new information.