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>> Any moral is a balance between human needs/wants and some theory about how society functions best. It was Nietzsche's great insight that internal considerat

by miked 17y ago

>> Any moral is a balance between human needs/wants and some theory about how society functions best. It was Nietzsche's great insight that internal considerations play a much larger role in constructing morality than external considerations. See, in particular, _On the Genealogy of Morals_ and _Beyond Good and Evil_. Nietzsche's first questions on encountering a morality were always: what "instincts" are active here? Does this ethic arise from a overwelling of strength and confidence, or from resentment, envy, and fear? Nietzsche called the former good and the latter bad. He despised the Political Correctness of his time. I've no doubt he would have attacked the PC beliefs of our era as well, seeing them the same way that pg does: as arising out of fear.

adimit 17y ago
Nietzsche also hinted at the way moral rules get enforced: you aren't ashamed of your own thoughts, only of someone finding out about them. Basically, this is fear of being exposed. In our (the Western) society, this is most true for sexual and/or violent thoughts, as well as anti-government or anti-religious thoughts. Particularly when it comes to sexual thoughts, I cannot find a reason for holding back any of them.
- Raplh 17y ago
  You are not only ashamed of getting caught. You INTERNALIZE the shame. You BELIEVE you are no good. I was just watching a youtube video that had a clip of a "youth minister" in a charismatic church getting a room full of what looked like 10-13 year olds in tears and on their knees talking about how they had disappointed jesus with their behavior, exhorting them that "YOU know what you must repent. Say it out loud." If only we could keep the external external. If you have managed that you are way ahead. Don't miss what is happening with those who haven't managed.
rjprins 17y ago
I don't care who said it (My apologies, I'm always a bit critical of throwing in famous names in a discussion, the arguments should count for themselves.). Internal considerations is really all there is. If you'd take the extreme ego central perspective, you get the double moral: "I can do anything I want, you may only do things that are beneficial to me." Obviously this doesn't work in society, and even for the strongest individual this becomes: "You should do things that do not hurt me, and I will do everything so as to not make you hurt me." This may be further fine-tuned in a closely knit society:"If society benefits, I benefit, therefor everybody should do what benefits society". Basically collective morality comes forth from selfish morality. And when it does not, it is 'naturally selected', e.g. as the French royalty which was beheaded by the plebs or more commonly, the governmental policing of individuals. I wouldn't say there is any inherent good or bad in acting on strength/confidence or fear/envy. And ethics that arise from those feelings are also neither good nor bad. Some rules are more capable of continuing than others. e.g. The 'serial-killer'-morale has less chance than the 'pacifist'-morale. This makes pacifism 'better', but not something inherently 'good'.
- miked 17y ago
  >> I don't care who said it (My apologies, I'm always a bit critical of throwing in famous names in a discussion, the arguments should count for themselves.). Internal considerations is really all there is. Agreed. I'm not citing authority, I'm giving credit where credit is due. >> I wouldn't say there is any inherent good or bad in acting on strength/confidence or fear/envy. And ethics that arise from those feelings are also neither good nor bad. Well, if we're going to hash out the basis of morality we're going to need a few more pixels. I'm not sure I agree with Nietzsche on this. I am certain that when people are scared, resentful, or envious, they can do a lot of damage. I'm also certain, based on 53 years of living, that people who are happy and confident tend to spread a lot more joy around than those who are resentful. Misery not only loves company, it creates and reinforces norms that spread misery. >> Basically collective morality comes forth from selfish morality. I'm not sure where you mean by this, but it's worth knowing that Hilter's National Socialist German Worker's Party stamped the slogan "The collective good over the individual good" on their coins. Want people to obey you, work for you, and die for you? Establish a morality that doing what you want instead of what the nation's leaders want (who naturally claim to represent the collective good) is bad. Or as our current Vice-President says, "unpatriotic".
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    " I'm also certain, based on 53 years of living, that people who are happy and confident tend to spread a lot more joy around than those who are resentful." Maybe happy, confident people have more to be joyful about, and less to be resentful of, than people with less reason to be happy and confident? (That sounds like a tautology, which is kind of my point.) If your world view is shaped growing up in the slums of Mumbai, vs. growing up in an upper middle class American and getting an Ivy League education, are you more or less likely to be happy, confident, and joyful, or full of resentment?

by miked 17y ago

adimit 17y ago

Nietzsche also hinted at the way moral rules get enforced: you aren't ashamed of your own thoughts, only of someone finding out about them. Basically, this is fear of being exposed. In our (the Western) society, this is most true for sexual and/or violent thoughts, as well as anti-government or anti-religious thoughts. Particularly when it comes to sexual thoughts, I cannot find a reason for holding back any of them.

Raplh 17y ago
You are not only ashamed of getting caught. You INTERNALIZE the shame. You BELIEVE you are no good. I was just watching a youtube video that had a clip of a "youth minister" in a charismatic church getting a room full of what looked like 10-13 year olds in tears and on their knees talking about how they had disappointed jesus with their behavior, exhorting them that "YOU know what you must repent. Say it out loud." If only we could keep the external external. If you have managed that you are way ahead. Don't miss what is happening with those who haven't managed.

rjprins 17y ago

I don't care who said it (My apologies, I'm always a bit critical of throwing in famous names in a discussion, the arguments should count for themselves.). Internal considerations is really all there is. If you'd take the extreme ego central perspective, you get the double moral: "I can do anything I want, you may only do things that are beneficial to me." Obviously this doesn't work in society, and even for the strongest individual this becomes: "You should do things that do not hurt me, and I will do everything so as to not make you hurt me." This may be further fine-tuned in a closely knit society:"If society benefits, I benefit, therefor everybody should do what benefits society". Basically collective morality comes forth from selfish morality. And when it does not, it is 'naturally selected', e.g. as the French royalty which was beheaded by the plebs or more commonly, the governmental policing of individuals. I wouldn't say there is any inherent good or bad in acting on strength/confidence or fear/envy. And ethics that arise from those feelings are also neither good nor bad. Some rules are more capable of continuing than others. e.g. The 'serial-killer'-morale has less chance than the 'pacifist'-morale. This makes pacifism 'better', but not something inherently 'good'.

miked 17y ago
>> I don't care who said it (My apologies, I'm always a bit critical of throwing in famous names in a discussion, the arguments should count for themselves.). Internal considerations is really all there is. Agreed. I'm not citing authority, I'm giving credit where credit is due. >> I wouldn't say there is any inherent good or bad in acting on strength/confidence or fear/envy. And ethics that arise from those feelings are also neither good nor bad. Well, if we're going to hash out the basis of morality we're going to need a few more pixels. I'm not sure I agree with Nietzsche on this. I am certain that when people are scared, resentful, or envious, they can do a lot of damage. I'm also certain, based on 53 years of living, that people who are happy and confident tend to spread a lot more joy around than those who are resentful. Misery not only loves company, it creates and reinforces norms that spread misery. >> Basically collective morality comes forth from selfish morality. I'm not sure where you mean by this, but it's worth knowing that Hilter's National Socialist German Worker's Party stamped the slogan "The collective good over the individual good" on their coins. Want people to obey you, work for you, and die for you? Establish a morality that doing what you want instead of what the nation's leaders want (who naturally claim to represent the collective good) is bad. Or as our current Vice-President says, "unpatriotic".
- jimbokun 17y ago
  " I'm also certain, based on 53 years of living, that people who are happy and confident tend to spread a lot more joy around than those who are resentful." Maybe happy, confident people have more to be joyful about, and less to be resentful of, than people with less reason to be happy and confident? (That sounds like a tautology, which is kind of my point.) If your world view is shaped growing up in the slums of Mumbai, vs. growing up in an upper middle class American and getting an Ivy League education, are you more or less likely to be happy, confident, and joyful, or full of resentment?