8 ms·

Some thoughts on mobile

45 points by mh_ 13y ago

monsterix 13y ago
Interesting post! Tablets are definitely a new and a separate category. FWIW, there must have been reasons why Steve dismissed smaller tablets (or phablets) earlier... and that seems to be the new type of content that could come by with larger surfaces. Handwriting and doodles? iPad introduces doodles and handwriting very nicely with its immersive experience and ample space to express that way. Mind you it is not about HW recognition, but only real handwriting. Such content wasn't possible or easy enough on pre-PC devices like desktops or even smartphones. Well, that's what we hustlers at Bubbles (https://bubbleideas.com https://bubbleideas.com) think and are betting on - we're trying to reinvent mails with doodles and handwriting. Also another pointer to share here is that lately note-taking and note-sharing has already moved doodles, so what would be next? :-) [Edits: Additions/subtractions etc.]
danso 13y ago
I agree that tablets lend themselves to more graceful interaction in some scenarios, and that the cognitive delight of the interface is itself a feature that may spark new kinds of uses. However, I have to place bets that the future of touch is going to be 99% consumption. And the production that's done on it will be "production-lite". Can anyone who currently produces multimedia at a professional level -- e.g. video, photos, music -- imagine that a sophisticated touch interface will replace their keystrokes and mouse? In other words: is it possible for touch-gestures to replicate even just a handful of the keyboard commands (nevermind the keyboard + mouse combos) that we take for granted? And if so, would this new set of physical interactions be more intuitive to learn than Ctrl-A, Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-C, Alt-Tab, etc. etc.? I don't think so. Sure, "Alt-Tab" and "Alt-tilde" don't map to natural human experience the same way that swiping four-fingers (or is it 3?)...but maybe that's the point. The function provided by Alt-Tab is very computer-dependent...multi-tasking between running programs. If "Alt-Tab" seems too non-natural of a "gesture", it's because it's handling a non-natural concept. Already, we can see the problem with how Apple has tried to map iOS features to multifinger swipe. Does anyone else have problems remembering what 3 fingers in one direction does versus four fingers horizontally? And that's not even getting to the imprecision of detection, which I'll concede is something that will improve vastly in the near future. But it's been about 6 years since Apple made the touch interface ubiquitous. And it's still cuss-word-excruciating to do something as simple as highlight a select few words out of a line (especially if they're in a overflow input field), copy and then paste them. And 5 years later, Apple still hasn't come up with a better way to "Undo" something than by shaking your device. I wonder how many production professionals here could retain their sanity with Cmd-Z?
- monsterix 13y ago
  > And it's still cuss-word-excruciating to do something as simple as highlight a select few words out of a line (especially if they're in a overflow input field), copy and then paste them. vs. > "I think there are lots of kinds of content that can be created on the iPad. When I am going to write that 35-page analyst report, I am going to want my Bluetooth keyboard. That’s 1 percent of the time. " Quoted from OP/Steve's. Aren't the functionality that you mention like highlighting, selecting, pasting text come within that 1% '35 page analyst report' frame that Steve indicated? IMHO, content created via iPad shouldn't be seen through lens of existing content, i.e text (HTML coded characters), images and plugins around it. Keyboard and desktops are good for that type of content. But with the iPad and tablets there could come by another form of content which rides on touches and gestures?
  - doktrin 13y ago
    > Aren't the functionality you mention like highlighting, selecting, pasting text come within that 1% '35 page analyst report' frame Steve indicated? I can't speak for everyone's use case, but cutting and pasting text is certainly not something I only do at work or in 1% of situations. Sure, there are ways to circumvent it by building in functionality directly, but it's a consistent and jarring reminder of a touch screen's current limitations.
    - monsterix 13y ago
      Yes, cut-paste is certainly a very fundamental functionality given the existing landscape of computers, existing content and the way people have expressed using the medium so far. I find typing on iPad's virtual keyboard clunky enough that I generally doodle my messages to my friends/wife when on the iPad. Good thing is that I am able to write in Hindi, my mother tongue, by doodling! Cut-paste experience on the iPad is horrible. It's not just clunky rather an impossible feat for my fingers given the text being in a small area that I want select and paste elsewhere.
  - danso 13y ago
    You make a good point, but I'd argue that it doesn't necessarily counter mine. Because it may be that "highlighting, selecting, etc." are "1% functions" because of their physical difficulty. And the more difficult they become, the less likely we are to use them...in the same way that most sophisticated writers can forgive themselves for using "ttyl" when text messaging. Even when using the iPad (as I am now), I reflexively limit the work I put into expressing things...so whereas on a laptop I'd be using more quoted passages and linking to sources, on an iPad, I just avoid making comments that would require such complexities (so apologies for this poorly supported comment :) ) I think content on tablets/mobile should still be judged against content created via any other interface. However, we should recognize that the simplicity of what these touch/mobile devices produce is a strength worth respecting...how many memorable and powerful videos and photos have been captured thanks to the ubiquity and easy of the smartphone that never would've existed were we limited to full size cameras?
programminggeek 13y ago
People who want touch to not replace traditional keyboards are the same people who still like terminals. I like terminals, but I also see two year olds able to pick up touch interfaces while I see adults struggle with a mouse and keyboard. That's a huge shift.
- LockeWatts 13y ago
  The difference being that the number of things you can do with a GUI as opposed to a CLI is much greater than the number of new things a touchscreen enables. The author mentions that new programs like powerpoint were invented when the GUI was created, and thus concludes there will be a similar shift in the tablet space. That conclusion doesn't actually make any sense. A GUI allows you to see the graphics you're designing. A touchscreen does not provide you with any new set of information, merely a new way to manipulate that information.
snowwrestler 13y ago
I don't see any reason to believe that a switch to "Android first" is imminent for most developers, particularly those in the U.S. Not only are iOS users much better sources of revenue, but the iPhone continues to be the best-selling phone in the U.S. plus the iPad is growing 3x as fast as the iPhone did plus the iPod touch has sold 100 million units. It's not a small market. On top of that is the diversity issue. Android may have greater total marketshare, but to access that full marketshare, developers must target and test a huge variety of hardware specs and OS versions.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Outside US is a completely different story. In many countries you will hardly see Apple devices.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  It isn't about iPhone and iPad as end-user products. And with device costs being fairly low, I don't think BYOD is going to have a lasting influence. The reason Android has an advantage in enterprise IT projects is that you have the full range of options, from an app-store download to heavily customizing an off-the-shelf Android product to building a fully custom software load. That's more flexibility in configuration and deployment than you have with Windows. You can turn Android into a mobile "dashboard" for every role in the enterprise. Compelling enterprise software will go deep into the environment, be sensory, be partly wearable, and be heavily customized, down to the hardware. I have clients who are making operating systems based on Android for their products. I expect that kind of embedding, plus lots of micro-controller-based sensors and acutators, will appear in industrial and office equipment, that tablet and handset devices will interact with. That's where Android, for now anyway, has a leg up.
deleted 13y ago
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e12e 13y ago
I think there is a strong future in touch - and I think it'll enable a lot of the things the mouse should have (and did, sort of). I think (hope) we'll see real styluses become an integrated part of the touch experience, probably with a couple of buttons (and possibly the use of both "ends" - eg: one for draw, one for erase). (This is just as we don't finger paint as much as we use brushes, pens, crayons and pencils). Maybe just "finger tip"-like styluses. I also thing basic multi-touch will go further, with more "snap-to", select-and/or-do-what-I-mean-like behaviour will become the norm (eg: double-tap > select sentence). I hope we'll see some development in the line of smalltalk and similar meaningful GUI environments. When I first saw the intro to the ACME-editor[1] for plan 9, I thought: Wow, that might get me off vim -- when I get around to buying a stylus -- there's no way I can work like that with a mouse - my RSI is far to troublesome for that. But for something like a high-precision windows 8/GNU/Linux tablet -- why not? [1] http://research.swtch.com/acme http://research.swtch.com/acme
Zigurd 13y ago
The article is right about a lack of vision regarding what kind of software you can run on mobile devices. Android is a subtle and expressive OS. It has yet to see the best software written for it. Enterprise software for mobile devices is not going to be distributed through a retail app store. So the app store model really has little influence on the development of enterprise software for tablets. Enterprise IT, and software vendors, will soon start targeting big-budget development projects at tablets. But that's only part of a big change that's coming. The whole idea of being tethered to a cubicle so you have a work surface on which to put a computer is going to go away. Tablet software is going to be a key element in making that workplace change work. But it will start slowing and experimentally.

45 points by mh_ 13y ago

Interesting post! Tablets are definitely a new and a separate category. FWIW, there must have been reasons why Steve dismissed smaller tablets (or phablets) earlier... and that seems to be the new type of content that could come by with larger surfaces. Handwriting and doodles? iPad introduces doodles and handwriting very nicely with its immersive experience and ample space to express that way. Mind you it is not about HW recognition, but only real handwriting. Such content wasn't possible or easy enough on pre-PC devices like desktops or even smartphones. Well, that's what we hustlers at Bubbles (https://bubbleideas.com https://bubbleideas.com) think and are betting on - we're trying to reinvent mails with doodles and handwriting. Also another pointer to share here is that lately note-taking and note-sharing has already moved doodles, so what would be next? :-) [Edits: Additions/subtractions etc.]

danso 13y ago

I agree that tablets lend themselves to more graceful interaction in some scenarios, and that the cognitive delight of the interface is itself a feature that may spark new kinds of uses. However, I have to place bets that the future of touch is going to be 99% consumption. And the production that's done on it will be "production-lite". Can anyone who currently produces multimedia at a professional level -- e.g. video, photos, music -- imagine that a sophisticated touch interface will replace their keystrokes and mouse? In other words: is it possible for touch-gestures to replicate even just a handful of the keyboard commands (nevermind the keyboard + mouse combos) that we take for granted? And if so, would this new set of physical interactions be more intuitive to learn than Ctrl-A, Ctrl-Z, Ctrl-C, Alt-Tab, etc. etc.? I don't think so. Sure, "Alt-Tab" and "Alt-tilde" don't map to natural human experience the same way that swiping four-fingers (or is it 3?)...but maybe that's the point. The function provided by Alt-Tab is very computer-dependent...multi-tasking between running programs. If "Alt-Tab" seems too non-natural of a "gesture", it's because it's handling a non-natural concept. Already, we can see the problem with how Apple has tried to map iOS features to multifinger swipe. Does anyone else have problems remembering what 3 fingers in one direction does versus four fingers horizontally? And that's not even getting to the imprecision of detection, which I'll concede is something that will improve vastly in the near future. But it's been about 6 years since Apple made the touch interface ubiquitous. And it's still cuss-word-excruciating to do something as simple as highlight a select few words out of a line (especially if they're in a overflow input field), copy and then paste them. And 5 years later, Apple still hasn't come up with a better way to "Undo" something than by shaking your device. I wonder how many production professionals here could retain their sanity with Cmd-Z?

monsterix 13y ago
> And it's still cuss-word-excruciating to do something as simple as highlight a select few words out of a line (especially if they're in a overflow input field), copy and then paste them. vs. > "I think there are lots of kinds of content that can be created on the iPad. When I am going to write that 35-page analyst report, I am going to want my Bluetooth keyboard. That’s 1 percent of the time. " Quoted from OP/Steve's. Aren't the functionality that you mention like highlighting, selecting, pasting text come within that 1% '35 page analyst report' frame that Steve indicated? IMHO, content created via iPad shouldn't be seen through lens of existing content, i.e text (HTML coded characters), images and plugins around it. Keyboard and desktops are good for that type of content. But with the iPad and tablets there could come by another form of content which rides on touches and gestures?
- doktrin 13y ago
  > Aren't the functionality you mention like highlighting, selecting, pasting text come within that 1% '35 page analyst report' frame Steve indicated? I can't speak for everyone's use case, but cutting and pasting text is certainly not something I only do at work or in 1% of situations. Sure, there are ways to circumvent it by building in functionality directly, but it's a consistent and jarring reminder of a touch screen's current limitations.
  - monsterix 13y ago
    Yes, cut-paste is certainly a very fundamental functionality given the existing landscape of computers, existing content and the way people have expressed using the medium so far. I find typing on iPad's virtual keyboard clunky enough that I generally doodle my messages to my friends/wife when on the iPad. Good thing is that I am able to write in Hindi, my mother tongue, by doodling! Cut-paste experience on the iPad is horrible. It's not just clunky rather an impossible feat for my fingers given the text being in a small area that I want select and paste elsewhere.
- danso 13y ago
  You make a good point, but I'd argue that it doesn't necessarily counter mine. Because it may be that "highlighting, selecting, etc." are "1% functions" because of their physical difficulty. And the more difficult they become, the less likely we are to use them...in the same way that most sophisticated writers can forgive themselves for using "ttyl" when text messaging. Even when using the iPad (as I am now), I reflexively limit the work I put into expressing things...so whereas on a laptop I'd be using more quoted passages and linking to sources, on an iPad, I just avoid making comments that would require such complexities (so apologies for this poorly supported comment :) ) I think content on tablets/mobile should still be judged against content created via any other interface. However, we should recognize that the simplicity of what these touch/mobile devices produce is a strength worth respecting...how many memorable and powerful videos and photos have been captured thanks to the ubiquity and easy of the smartphone that never would've existed were we limited to full size cameras?

programminggeek 13y ago

People who want touch to not replace traditional keyboards are the same people who still like terminals. I like terminals, but I also see two year olds able to pick up touch interfaces while I see adults struggle with a mouse and keyboard. That's a huge shift.

LockeWatts 13y ago
The difference being that the number of things you can do with a GUI as opposed to a CLI is much greater than the number of new things a touchscreen enables. The author mentions that new programs like powerpoint were invented when the GUI was created, and thus concludes there will be a similar shift in the tablet space. That conclusion doesn't actually make any sense. A GUI allows you to see the graphics you're designing. A touchscreen does not provide you with any new set of information, merely a new way to manipulate that information.

snowwrestler 13y ago

I don't see any reason to believe that a switch to "Android first" is imminent for most developers, particularly those in the U.S. Not only are iOS users much better sources of revenue, but the iPhone continues to be the best-selling phone in the U.S. plus the iPad is growing 3x as fast as the iPhone did plus the iPod touch has sold 100 million units. It's not a small market. On top of that is the diversity issue. Android may have greater total marketshare, but to access that full marketshare, developers must target and test a huge variety of hardware specs and OS versions.

pjmlp 13y ago
Outside US is a completely different story. In many countries you will hardly see Apple devices.
Zigurd 13y ago
It isn't about iPhone and iPad as end-user products. And with device costs being fairly low, I don't think BYOD is going to have a lasting influence. The reason Android has an advantage in enterprise IT projects is that you have the full range of options, from an app-store download to heavily customizing an off-the-shelf Android product to building a fully custom software load. That's more flexibility in configuration and deployment than you have with Windows. You can turn Android into a mobile "dashboard" for every role in the enterprise. Compelling enterprise software will go deep into the environment, be sensory, be partly wearable, and be heavily customized, down to the hardware. I have clients who are making operating systems based on Android for their products. I expect that kind of embedding, plus lots of micro-controller-based sensors and acutators, will appear in industrial and office equipment, that tablet and handset devices will interact with. That's where Android, for now anyway, has a leg up.

deleted 13y ago

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deleted 13y ago

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e12e 13y ago

I think there is a strong future in touch - and I think it'll enable a lot of the things the mouse should have (and did, sort of). I think (hope) we'll see real styluses become an integrated part of the touch experience, probably with a couple of buttons (and possibly the use of both "ends" - eg: one for draw, one for erase). (This is just as we don't finger paint as much as we use brushes, pens, crayons and pencils). Maybe just "finger tip"-like styluses. I also thing basic multi-touch will go further, with more "snap-to", select-and/or-do-what-I-mean-like behaviour will become the norm (eg: double-tap > select sentence). I hope we'll see some development in the line of smalltalk and similar meaningful GUI environments. When I first saw the intro to the ACME-editor[1] for plan 9, I thought: Wow, that might get me off vim -- when I get around to buying a stylus -- there's no way I can work like that with a mouse - my RSI is far to troublesome for that. But for something like a high-precision windows 8/GNU/Linux tablet -- why not? [1] http://research.swtch.com/acme http://research.swtch.com/acme

Zigurd 13y ago

The article is right about a lack of vision regarding what kind of software you can run on mobile devices. Android is a subtle and expressive OS. It has yet to see the best software written for it. Enterprise software for mobile devices is not going to be distributed through a retail app store. So the app store model really has little influence on the development of enterprise software for tablets. Enterprise IT, and software vendors, will soon start targeting big-budget development projects at tablets. But that's only part of a big change that's coming. The whole idea of being tethered to a cubicle so you have a work surface on which to put a computer is going to go away. Tablet software is going to be a key element in making that workplace change work. But it will start slowing and experimentally.