7 ms·

After watching police chases on TV my whole life, I really want to know: What's the logical strategy in a police chase? Just keep driving after each other? It

After watching police chases on TV my whole life, I really want to know: What's the logical strategy in a police chase? Just keep driving after each other? It risks the lives of hundreds living and walking in the path of the chase all for the sake of punishing 1 or 2 individuals. It just doesn't seem to add up to me. What a shame we lost someone so brilliant for nothing.

jthol 13y ago
I believe a lot of departments have moved to giving up those chases for just that reason. I'm sure there are situations where they will/will not pursue though I'm not sure what the criteria are.
tnohtyp 13y ago
According to the article they killed a police officer and ran, if you don't pursue them how are you going to catch them? Aftersll, they did murder someone, and apparently they had warrants, so it seems reasonable to assume we dont want them out running around anymore as they sre likely to commit more fiolent crimes. Furthermore, if have a policy to not pursue, then every criminal is always going to run. The fault is on the criminals, not on the police trying to apprehend them or the pursuit.
- kevincrane 13y ago
  Is it feasible to just track them from above with a helicopter? That would reduce the number of speeding cars on the road at least.
  - waterlesscloud 13y ago
    Once police have drones high-speed chases become much harder to justify.
    - Zolomon 13y ago
      I seriously doubt drones will cause less innocent deaths.
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        You seem to have confused "armed drone" with "drone".
        tylerlh 13y ago
        How so? I think they're just implying that even once police drones are in use it won't necessarily deter suspects from driving erratically.
        lostlogin 13y ago
        You may even need to drive faster...
        Ygg2 13y ago
        Implying you can spot the drone. Best police drone would simply tag the vehicle and see where it is moving around, then apprehend the fugitive one he settles for a longer period (during the night usually).
        icebraining 13y ago
        You don't need to spot the drone. If they start getting used regularly, the escapees will assume it's there and may try to evade it anyway.
        hatcravat 13y ago
        Yes, but how are they going to do that if they can't see the drone? How will they know when they have succeeded? Are they just going to continue driving recklessly until they run out of gas? Driving evasively seems like a very good way to attract the attention of other officers who might not recognize the suspects' car. Once the cruiser is out of sight, the suspects' best bet would be to "act casual." If the drone can see the suspects then it doesn't matter how they drive, and if it can't see them then driving like a maniac only makes it easier to be found.
  - Houshalter 13y ago
    It is, but it takes time for the helicopter to get off the ground and show up, and if you don't chase them in the meantime they will likely get away. I am curious what the average response time is for a police helicopter though.
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  Read more closely. "When officers went to investigate, there was a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting." The cops killed one of the suspects then pursued the rest, then a pedestrian died in the chase. But the fricken media did a great job phrasing things so the cops seemed justified, woo-hoo. See: http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/05/santa_ana_pedestrian_police_ch.php?page=2 http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/05/santa_ana_pede... (taken from further on this page, belongs further up btw)
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Wow. So every stage went as bad as it could have. Sure, there is a series to events where more people could have died, and I'm sure this will be brought up. There should be some people doing some pretty hard thinking about how they handled this.
    - grannyg00se 13y ago
      Why do you say as bad as it could have? This is a physical altercation with known gang members (if I'm properly informed). It's not going to go well. I think the difficulty in handling a situation like that in any way other than immediate armed confrontation must be immense. If somebody tasked me with "handling" a gang member I'm pretty sure I'd want a gun, and I'd want absolutely no restrictions or post-event questioning on its use. Obviously I'm not involved in professional law enforcement in LA but even with training I can imagine it to be an incredibly difficult situation. I think that the hard thinking to be done should be directed primarily at the underlying issues that result in (and support) organized street crime.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    I'm more commenting on the number of fatalities. Given how it panned out, it was handled badly. Confrontation there and then was the wrong choice. I don't pretend to have any great solutions, but I'd like to think that any armed confrontation that occurred near me had been done with consideration for what-if scenarios. Confrontation often brings out the worst in people, and it did here.
- potench 13y ago
  The way I read it, gang member Gerardo Diego Ayala was killed by a police officer. Then Victor Sanchez and 2 unidentified subjects fled the scene in a car. It's unclear what "officer involved shooting" means, but that's how I took it...
  - chc 13y ago
    That is what "officer involved shooting" normally means — a cop shot them.
    - ExpiredLink 13y ago
      In the US this means the fleeing are accused of murder, right?
      - Tloewald 13y ago
        Quite possibly felony homicide (ironically). And not just the US, any common law country (e.g. most commonwealth countries). http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+Rule http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+...
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
- gtufano 13y ago
  You know, police in EU normally don't chase criminals at high speed and they normally found them easily after the fact (especially if they wound/killed a cop). High speed chases are extremely rare, there is no rational need for them (and the consequent danger for passers by).
  - JackFr 13y ago
    Given that all of the suspects had outstanding arrest warrants, this episode was the result the suspects 'being found easily after the fact.' It seems you can find them all you want, but eventually you're going to have to take them in and many times the bad guys just won't want to go.
  - nawitus 13y ago
    EU is not a country. The police in Finland will almost always chase 'criminals' until they stop. The 'criminals' are mostly people who are drunk drivers or speeding, tough. Ironically, the reason there's very few chases is that punishments are not severe for crimes. If you are certain that you'll get federal prison in USA for almost any crime, it makes sense to risk it and try to get away.
  - rmc 13y ago
    There isn't a EU wide police or justice system. It's all done at the national level. Policing standards can vary widely around countries.
    - mietek 13y ago
      Your statement is true. The parent poster's statement is also true.
      - nawitus 13y ago
        Not really, the typical action in many EU countries is to go for pursuit. This is case in Finland and Sweden, for example.
        13y ago
whenEnough 13y ago
the rules all change when one of their own is killed. though it's largely emotional the resulting logic is strong. protection is generated from the fear of an emotional, armed response; so it survives as unwritten police policy everywhere. just as if for example, we felt the same way the police would be quite scared right now.
- Joeboy 13y ago
  > the rules all change when one of their own is killed No police officer was killed. As far as I can tell the chase happened when three men fled police who had killed a fellow gang member.
  - whenEnough 13y ago
    "a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting." whoops i read the wrong side of the gun. perhaps assange is right and their language is their undoing. still, the though of an "emotional" response remains stirring.
zb 13y ago
In New Zealand the police adopted a (highly-publicised) policy of not continuing to chase people who drive away at high speed due to the danger it poses to the public, when it is trivial to just go round to their house the next day and arrest them. The consequences of this have been as follows: 1) Now everybody runs when stopped by Police. OK, not everybody, but the rate has probably tripled. 2) After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public. 3) Everyone - Police, media, politicians, the public - is genuinely confused as to why this keeps happening. Basically, you can't win :(
- Volpe 13y ago
  > After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public. i call BS, citation?
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    My perception was that the comment was correct however with a quick skim I cant produce anything more than anecdata. The police do seem to be consistently breaking their rules which dictate that the chase ends when it gets dangerous. However crashes do seem to be happen after the chase has ended rather too regularly - about 30 seconds later. Citation. Here is an editorial on the poor stats we have. An interesting aside - police chases followed by a crash kill far more people here than police guns. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10883696 http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objec...
    - Volpe 13y ago
      That states the occupants of the car die. Not some random (innocent) member of the public (as the GP stated).
    - femto 13y ago
glurgh 13y ago
The logic of it is that the pursuant might shortly commit further crime and not-pursuing endangers others more than pursuing. Additionally, it might serve as a deterrent to crime if criminals know they will be pursued strenuously. It's not a universally accepted line of reasoning, even in communities across the US. But it's also not one just made up of whole cloth, 'for nothing'.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
olalonde 13y ago
In China, police are not allowed to chase cars.
corresation 13y ago
That the risk of capture is the greatest deterrent to crime, to start? That the culprits being chased are often highly violent criminals who they don't want disappearing into the social noise? In an urban environment the number of branching permutations is enormous, so they can't simply radio ahead at the outset, and "chasing" is often simply keeping an eye on the target while supporting units move in. There are several comments throughout this story about how police in [various enlightened areas] no longer do chases. It usually isn't so straightforward, otherwise the world's bank robbers and kidnappers will be on their way over, idling car at the standby. What most police forces throughout the world have stopped doing is chases for trivial things (where the single most serious crime committed is not stopping for police), which has historically led to everyday people panicking when the police turn on the lights after they roll through a stop sign, etc. Police also try to resort to helicopters sooner, and abandon the chase if it's 2pm in a school zone, etc. However the nature of law enforcement means that chases still happen for serious incidents, and they happen around the world, some questionable accuracy claims in comments notwithstanding. This is a terrible tragedy and it's unfortunate that this armchair speculation has taken the lead so quickly.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  This seems correct to me. The most common example I remember was multiple incidents of fatalities resulting in police chasing joyriders.
ry0ohki 13y ago
Most jurisdictions no longer allow chases for crimes less than murder because of this.
wtil 13y ago
I too have wondered this after watching American police car chases. Here in the UK at any time a superior officer, often monitoring the scene, can call off the chase, and call in a helicopter (if one is available) to monitor the situation. All officers must report how safe the chase is (cars on the road, weather conditions, pedestrians) and lying is a criminal offence. Also, officers who are part of a chase must be pursuit trained. Here's the de facto manual all pursuit trained officers must be accustomed too: http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/20110418%20UOBA%20Managenment%20of%20police%20pursuits%20-%20Final%20_2__2009_website.pdf http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/20110418%... Example of a pursuit in the UK and notice the shock tactics at the end (smashing the passenger side window, dragging him from the car, etc) this is the to confuse and disorientate the man and makes sure he doesn't have time to get a weapon or destroy evidence.
pdubbs 13y ago
I listened to a podcast a couple weeks ago that explained a lot of the procedures and laws surrounding police chases. It's worth a listen if you're interested: http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/police-chases-work/ http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/police-chases-wor...
mncolinlee 13y ago
Most police chases end when the car being pursued stops. This could be the result of a driver coming to one's senses, an erratic move resulting in a single car accident, or it could be the result of a police blockade with spikes or a PIT maneuver. The last is an example of one technique police departments employ to end police chases more safely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver

jthol 13y ago

I believe a lot of departments have moved to giving up those chases for just that reason. I'm sure there are situations where they will/will not pursue though I'm not sure what the criteria are.

tnohtyp 13y ago

According to the article they killed a police officer and ran, if you don't pursue them how are you going to catch them? Aftersll, they did murder someone, and apparently they had warrants, so it seems reasonable to assume we dont want them out running around anymore as they sre likely to commit more fiolent crimes. Furthermore, if have a policy to not pursue, then every criminal is always going to run. The fault is on the criminals, not on the police trying to apprehend them or the pursuit.

kevincrane 13y ago
Is it feasible to just track them from above with a helicopter? That would reduce the number of speeding cars on the road at least.
- waterlesscloud 13y ago
  Once police have drones high-speed chases become much harder to justify.
  - Zolomon 13y ago
    I seriously doubt drones will cause less innocent deaths.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      You seem to have confused "armed drone" with "drone".
      - tylerlh 13y ago
        How so? I think they're just implying that even once police drones are in use it won't necessarily deter suspects from driving erratically.
        lostlogin 13y ago
        You may even need to drive faster...
        Ygg2 13y ago
        Implying you can spot the drone. Best police drone would simply tag the vehicle and see where it is moving around, then apprehend the fugitive one he settles for a longer period (during the night usually).
        icebraining 13y ago
        You don't need to spot the drone. If they start getting used regularly, the escapees will assume it's there and may try to evade it anyway.
        hatcravat 13y ago
        Yes, but how are they going to do that if they can't see the drone? How will they know when they have succeeded? Are they just going to continue driving recklessly until they run out of gas? Driving evasively seems like a very good way to attract the attention of other officers who might not recognize the suspects' car. Once the cruiser is out of sight, the suspects' best bet would be to "act casual." If the drone can see the suspects then it doesn't matter how they drive, and if it can't see them then driving like a maniac only makes it easier to be found.
- Houshalter 13y ago
  It is, but it takes time for the helicopter to get off the ground and show up, and if you don't chase them in the meantime they will likely get away. I am curious what the average response time is for a police helicopter though.
joe_the_user 13y ago
Read more closely. "When officers went to investigate, there was a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting." The cops killed one of the suspects then pursued the rest, then a pedestrian died in the chase. But the fricken media did a great job phrasing things so the cops seemed justified, woo-hoo. See: http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/05/santa_ana_pedestrian_police_ch.php?page=2 http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/05/santa_ana_pede... (taken from further on this page, belongs further up btw)
- lostlogin 13y ago
  Wow. So every stage went as bad as it could have. Sure, there is a series to events where more people could have died, and I'm sure this will be brought up. There should be some people doing some pretty hard thinking about how they handled this.
  - grannyg00se 13y ago
    Why do you say as bad as it could have? This is a physical altercation with known gang members (if I'm properly informed). It's not going to go well. I think the difficulty in handling a situation like that in any way other than immediate armed confrontation must be immense. If somebody tasked me with "handling" a gang member I'm pretty sure I'd want a gun, and I'd want absolutely no restrictions or post-event questioning on its use. Obviously I'm not involved in professional law enforcement in LA but even with training I can imagine it to be an incredibly difficult situation. I think that the hard thinking to be done should be directed primarily at the underlying issues that result in (and support) organized street crime.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  I'm more commenting on the number of fatalities. Given how it panned out, it was handled badly. Confrontation there and then was the wrong choice. I don't pretend to have any great solutions, but I'd like to think that any armed confrontation that occurred near me had been done with consideration for what-if scenarios. Confrontation often brings out the worst in people, and it did here.
potench 13y ago
The way I read it, gang member Gerardo Diego Ayala was killed by a police officer. Then Victor Sanchez and 2 unidentified subjects fled the scene in a car. It's unclear what "officer involved shooting" means, but that's how I took it...
- chc 13y ago
  That is what "officer involved shooting" normally means — a cop shot them.
  - ExpiredLink 13y ago
    In the US this means the fleeing are accused of murder, right?
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      Quite possibly felony homicide (ironically). And not just the US, any common law country (e.g. most commonwealth countries). http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+Rule http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+...
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
gtufano 13y ago
You know, police in EU normally don't chase criminals at high speed and they normally found them easily after the fact (especially if they wound/killed a cop). High speed chases are extremely rare, there is no rational need for them (and the consequent danger for passers by).
- JackFr 13y ago
  Given that all of the suspects had outstanding arrest warrants, this episode was the result the suspects 'being found easily after the fact.' It seems you can find them all you want, but eventually you're going to have to take them in and many times the bad guys just won't want to go.
- nawitus 13y ago
  EU is not a country. The police in Finland will almost always chase 'criminals' until they stop. The 'criminals' are mostly people who are drunk drivers or speeding, tough. Ironically, the reason there's very few chases is that punishments are not severe for crimes. If you are certain that you'll get federal prison in USA for almost any crime, it makes sense to risk it and try to get away.
- rmc 13y ago
  There isn't a EU wide police or justice system. It's all done at the national level. Policing standards can vary widely around countries.
  - mietek 13y ago
    Your statement is true. The parent poster's statement is also true.
    - nawitus 13y ago
      Not really, the typical action in many EU countries is to go for pursuit. This is case in Finland and Sweden, for example.
      - 13y ago

whenEnough 13y ago

the rules all change when one of their own is killed. though it's largely emotional the resulting logic is strong. protection is generated from the fear of an emotional, armed response; so it survives as unwritten police policy everywhere. just as if for example, we felt the same way the police would be quite scared right now.

Joeboy 13y ago
> the rules all change when one of their own is killed No police officer was killed. As far as I can tell the chase happened when three men fled police who had killed a fellow gang member.
- whenEnough 13y ago
  "a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting." whoops i read the wrong side of the gun. perhaps assange is right and their language is their undoing. still, the though of an "emotional" response remains stirring.

zb 13y ago

In New Zealand the police adopted a (highly-publicised) policy of not continuing to chase people who drive away at high speed due to the danger it poses to the public, when it is trivial to just go round to their house the next day and arrest them. The consequences of this have been as follows: 1) Now everybody runs when stopped by Police. OK, not everybody, but the rate has probably tripled. 2) After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public. 3) Everyone - Police, media, politicians, the public - is genuinely confused as to why this keeps happening. Basically, you can't win :(

Volpe 13y ago
> After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public. i call BS, citation?
- lostlogin 13y ago
  My perception was that the comment was correct however with a quick skim I cant produce anything more than anecdata. The police do seem to be consistently breaking their rules which dictate that the chase ends when it gets dangerous. However crashes do seem to be happen after the chase has ended rather too regularly - about 30 seconds later. Citation. Here is an editorial on the poor stats we have. An interesting aside - police chases followed by a crash kill far more people here than police guns. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10883696 http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objec...
  - Volpe 13y ago
    That states the occupants of the car die. Not some random (innocent) member of the public (as the GP stated).
  - femto 13y ago

glurgh 13y ago

The logic of it is that the pursuant might shortly commit further crime and not-pursuing endangers others more than pursuing. Additionally, it might serve as a deterrent to crime if criminals know they will be pursued strenuously. It's not a universally accepted line of reasoning, even in communities across the US. But it's also not one just made up of whole cloth, 'for nothing'.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

olalonde 13y ago

In China, police are not allowed to chase cars.

corresation 13y ago

That the risk of capture is the greatest deterrent to crime, to start? That the culprits being chased are often highly violent criminals who they don't want disappearing into the social noise? In an urban environment the number of branching permutations is enormous, so they can't simply radio ahead at the outset, and "chasing" is often simply keeping an eye on the target while supporting units move in. There are several comments throughout this story about how police in [various enlightened areas] no longer do chases. It usually isn't so straightforward, otherwise the world's bank robbers and kidnappers will be on their way over, idling car at the standby. What most police forces throughout the world have stopped doing is chases for trivial things (where the single most serious crime committed is not stopping for police), which has historically led to everyday people panicking when the police turn on the lights after they roll through a stop sign, etc. Police also try to resort to helicopters sooner, and abandon the chase if it's 2pm in a school zone, etc. However the nature of law enforcement means that chases still happen for serious incidents, and they happen around the world, some questionable accuracy claims in comments notwithstanding. This is a terrible tragedy and it's unfortunate that this armchair speculation has taken the lead so quickly.

Tloewald 13y ago
This seems correct to me. The most common example I remember was multiple incidents of fatalities resulting in police chasing joyriders.

ry0ohki 13y ago

Most jurisdictions no longer allow chases for crimes less than murder because of this.

wtil 13y ago

I too have wondered this after watching American police car chases. Here in the UK at any time a superior officer, often monitoring the scene, can call off the chase, and call in a helicopter (if one is available) to monitor the situation. All officers must report how safe the chase is (cars on the road, weather conditions, pedestrians) and lying is a criminal offence. Also, officers who are part of a chase must be pursuit trained. Here's the de facto manual all pursuit trained officers must be accustomed too: http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/20110418%20UOBA%20Managenment%20of%20police%20pursuits%20-%20Final%20_2__2009_website.pdf http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/20110418%... Example of a pursuit in the UK and notice the shock tactics at the end (smashing the passenger side window, dragging him from the car, etc) this is the to confuse and disorientate the man and makes sure he doesn't have time to get a weapon or destroy evidence.

pdubbs 13y ago

I listened to a podcast a couple weeks ago that explained a lot of the procedures and laws surrounding police chases. It's worth a listen if you're interested: http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/police-chases-work/ http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/police-chases-wor...

mncolinlee 13y ago

Most police chases end when the car being pursued stops. This could be the result of a driver coming to one's senses, an erratic move resulting in a single car accident, or it could be the result of a police blockade with spikes or a PIT maneuver. The last is an example of one technique police departments employ to end police chases more safely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver