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Let’s help Airbnb rebuild the bridge it just burned

202 points by emhart 13y ago

gamblor956 13y ago
1) Why should we help a company valued at over $1 billion dig itself out of a hole of its own making? 2) The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this.
- neeee 13y ago
  >The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. No. One out of the eight comments quoted mentions it, and the author does not.
- unreal37 13y ago
  I like the tone of Doc's post. Very positive and solution focused. As for #2, it remains to be seen I guess how much % drop in AirBNB bookings are caused by this. It will be some number, but obviously I think they're prepared for it. I don't think this has anything to do with "unregistered hotels".
  - groundCode 13y ago
    I like the tone of Doc's post as well, however, as a consumer, I don't think it's my problem to help a company out if they suck at serving their customer.....and if I don my entrepreneurial hat, the more AirBNB annoy people, the bigger the opportunity for a good competitor to pick up the pieces.
- gojomo 13y ago
  Volume bookings via AirBnB are only illegal in some particularly authoritarian jurisdictions. Most places, those are within its "proper purpose".
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    From the news that I've been following, those "particularly authoritarian jurisdictions" include about every country with some level of regulations for the hotel industry - which basically includes each and every european country and the USA.
- blottsie 13y ago
  > The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this. You incorrectly assume here that the only people who rely on a high volume of guests are those who do so illegally. Many Airbnb hosts operate a vacation rental property that they own. And they often rely on the income that property generates. These people – the ones that often maintain the best vacation rentals Airbnb offers – face the most damage from a drop in bookings. And Airbnb should be very concerned about that.
  - aacook 13y ago
    Luckily Airbnb's success is based off revenue share. So if there is actually a drop in bookings, Airbnb has an interest in killing this feature. My guess? They already tested it on a small subset of their users and it's working well. Furthermore, if they have a network of all verified and trusted users, the network is going to be incredibly strong. edit: sp error
- aacook 13y ago
  I disagree with your 2nd point. This seems like over generalizing. You're saying that every Airbnb host that is upset about this change is suddenly using Airbnb illegally? Definitely not true. It sounds like the verification flow has some serious design/flow problems. If I'm an Airbnb host in a major city and I have an affordable and highly rated place, I'm likely to attract all kinds of guests: both sophisticated and unsophisticated. For example, the most frequented place on Airbnb in San Francisco has probably seen hundreds of guests from around the world: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/33577 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/33577 Different people are different. Not everyone actually has a government issued ID. This does not mean they are necessarily illegal or untrustworthy. I think many people are going to freak out about these requirements... not just people without IDs, but average people who find the process intrusive. Do I have to answer security questions and upload my ID when booking a hotel? No. However, maybe Airbnb has already tested this on a smaller random set of their listings and proven it doesn't reduce bookings.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Don't hotels usually take your ID at the front desk when you check in?
    - Spooky23 13y ago
      No. They are more interested in your money. You can even pay cash with a deposit. Actually, hotels don't require your actual identity. Many people like celebrities, public figures, some business travellers routinely provide fake information to hotels.
      - notahacker 13y ago
        That depends on the jurisdiction. In some countries hotels will actually insist on keeping your passport until checkout, and in others some have genuinely considered turning me away when all I had was a photocopy of a lost passport and a police report.
        13y ago
nathan_f77 13y ago
No matter what you do, there's always going to be complaints. Verified ID is a seriously good idea. I would definitely feel safer hosting verified people. Of course, they might still be horrible guests, but that will be their last visit with any AirBnb host.
- sdas7 13y ago
  Good on ya. But it should be an option, not forced. If you only want to host people with "Verified ID", then just reject anybody who doesn't have it.
  - unreal37 13y ago
    With a $1 million "burn your home down" guarantee, and future bad press on the line, AirBNB doesn't want to take the risk that you want to take.
  - signed0 13y ago
    If I read the article correctly, hosts are still in control as to whether they will allow all guests or just verified. Did I misinterpret this? Is the uproar over the mandate that a random 25% of users are now required to go through verification?
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      25% is really high and might as well be mandatory. Only a fool would count on not having to verify, especially when they don't tell you until the last second. This isn't a pilot program, this is a massive, invasive change.
  - jacalata 13y ago
    It is an option. Last I heard, you could still advertise short term rentals on Craigslist, after all.
rurounijones 13y ago
I love the usual weaselly worded "We apologize if our changes caused you distress" automated response to her second email. That kind of corporate lingo is what I expect from soulless corporations. [EDIT] To make it clear. She offered lots of suggestions on what other services they could use and instead of a personal "Thanks for that, we will investigate" they gave her the brush-off with an obviously automated email. Pretty shoddy customer relations.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  Wasn't Airbnb the company where the founders took a special dividend using funds from one of the later VC rounds (which Ron Conway publicly objected to)? That sounds like something leaders of soulless corporations would do.
  - cmbaus 13y ago
    I hadn't heard this. Dividends are a great way to screw over option holders, who are often employees.
    - DHowett 13y ago
      There were certainly other ways they were trying to screw over option holders (lit. employees), too. (EDIT: Source: Prior working relationship with the company. Fought "tooth and nail" against this Verified ID junk.)
      - e_w 13y ago
        Can you expand on that?
  - kiyoto 13y ago
    No, it was Chamath who called them out (They later reconciled). http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiya-decries-airbnbs-recent-112m-funding-for-excessive-founder-control-and-cashout-in-email/ http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiy... and http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palihapitiya-settle-differences-with-employees-to-get-liquidity/ http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palih...
danso 13y ago
> As a host, it is up to me to choose who I allow in my home. I like that I can decide how many requirements to place on my guests. Should I choose to place strict requirements, I get more protection and probably fewer bookings. I like having the choice. Airbnb just took the choice away from me and I’m not happy about it. Before we get into arguments about the validity of libertarianism...I think it shouldn't be shocking that when a company becomes large (with more at stake), they have to act in ways that will be overbearing in comparison to what they were before. The quoted complaint above could easily apply to, let's say, the Apple iOS store, in which decisions are made heavily in favor of playing it safe and clean. I would like to argue that I'm wise enough to make my own choices about downloading immoral/unpleasant apps...and I'm entitled to make that argument. However, I can't argue that this...ahem, proactive policy prevents a great many shit-fests that might otherwise arise were it not in place. And I really can't dispute that Apple so far been wildly successful in the app marketplace. Likewise, from Airbnb's perspective, I can see why they've made the calculation that proactively preventing scammers is overall, a good business decision. Because a few disasters from slightly foolish customers is enough to doom the entire ship.
- bradleyjg 13y ago
  How exactly does a LinkedIn or Facebook profile, much less a personal video, prevent scammers? All three of those are trivial to fake. On the other hand a public feedback system with persistent identities, which they already have is harder to game. No, this is a ham fisted marketing initiative pretending to be about security. Why they didn't just buy 'likes' with coupons like every other scummy company out there, I don't know.
  - lbarrow 13y ago
    It's actually not super easy to fake a Facebook or LinkedIn presence. Most services that use social media presence as an identity check ask questions like: 1. How long has your account been active? 2. Does your account have a human-like pattern of activity? 3. Do your social graphs overlap realistically? Are you Facebook friends with your LinkedIn connections? Etc. It'd take an extremely patient scammer to fake that sort of data. It can be done, of course, it's not trivial.
encoderer 13y ago
Generally, I feel people are too cynical. And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph at first made my eyes roll. But the truth is, there are a lot of things we do online that require real, meaningful identity verification. You put your SSN and DOB in and the computer gives you a series of multiple-choice questions from items on your credit report. People are used to them. They work. And at the least, why not offer the credit report ID verification as the backup, perhaps alongside this video? Seems to me it would really cover their bases: The free spirits who would sooner die than submit to a credit check can produce a video. The professional, 2-million-miler, harvard-law types wouldn't flinch at an identity check that they've done every time they opened a credit card or bank account or many investment accounts or used the US Treasury or IRS systems or a credit monitoring product or, the list goes on. There's just a nominal cost associated with these, and unlike applications for credit they do not impact a persons credit score. I'm not sold, but maybe there's something to the reliance on Facebook and LinkedIn afterall?
- s_baby 13y ago
  I have neither. What am I supposed to do?
  - mwfunk 13y ago
    Don't use a service that requires you to have one? Or make an account with one of them so you can use a service that requires you to have one? Seems pretty straightforward.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      1) seems straightforward along with making them a bad name every time it comes to discussion.
- prodigal_erik 13y ago
  > And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph Even if they actually didn't set out to get it (unlikely), I have no doubt at all that they'll abuse it once they have it. Rule #1: spammers lie.
triplesec 13y ago
Inevitable as a company get bigger it likes bureaucracy more and wants to cover its ass over being sued for bad experiences. We all hate Paypal for its overofficcious moneylaundering ID requests which, should its dBs be compromised could easily screw the finances of millions. Do we really want to give these people IDs?
- Vivtek 13y ago
  The difference there is that Paypal is required by law to make those ID requests. AirBNB is not.
  - triplesec 13y ago
    Oh quite right! This is why I'm entirely against this, whereas I just deeply hate Paypal's lack of customer service.
gojomo 13y ago
In the middle of a recent trip, AirBnB asked me for more verification info to make a new reservation -- credit-report-based questions -- even though I'd already... (1) been a well-reviewed AirBnB guest on multiple occasions; (2) concluded transactions through them on more than one CC for those previous stays; (3) linked my Facebook and LinkedIn profiles long ago. Such verification questions can involve things like car loans from more than a decade ago, and on at least one of the questions I wasn't even sure I remembered the right answer. Though I understand they have fraud concerns, I felt it kind of obnoxious to spring this new requirement on me in the middle of a trip, when I was depending on AirBnB working the same as before (and indeed as it had worked on my 1st AirBnB reservation of the same trip). Had I been required to send a scan of some government ID, I'd have felt even more like they'd breached our prior understanding, without warning, at an inconvenient time.
lucisferre 13y ago
> Banks lose customer data all the time and they have some of the most stringent standards possible Tell that to my maximum 6 digit, no special characters bank web login pin.
graue 13y ago
Interesting to read about the story behind this. I recently tried to use Airbnb to get a last minute spot in Boston. The most annoying part of the ID process was that it acted like everything was cool, let me browse the site, let me make a reservation and put in my credit card info, and only then told me to give them tons of extra info before they would process the reservation. I actually tried to go through their process and it was quite draconian. They ask for tons of stuff. Last 4 of SSN was one part, and they also asked questions about streets I lived on years ago, specifically, which county those streets are in. They must have a contract with someone who has a database of this kind of stuff. But I got through that and was hung up on the last step, "Online ID", which requires a Facebook account (don't use it under my real last name), LinkedIn account (don't have one), or recording an introduction video (not possible while I'm sitting in a busy coffeeshop, also seemed like a pretty absurd ask). At this point I wanted to bail out but there was no "Cancel Reservation" button anywhere and they had my CC info hostage. So I had to close my whole account. By the way, this was an account I had previously used to book an Airbnb place with no problems, and got a positive review from the guy. The surprise ID requirements struck me as manipulative, as if they knew if they'd asked for all this stuff before I booked a night, I wouldn't have used their site. So they pretended they were going to hook me up with a room, then sprung this out of nowhere.
- jrockway 13y ago
  The "creepy questions" are a pretty standard identity verification scheme. If you ever open a bank or brokerage account online, you'll probably be asked these. They're used because they're simple and work reasonably well. Anyone can steal or guess the last four digits of your SSN or driver's license, but it's harder to learn random details of your life. (Then again, I recently answered the creepy questions for a friend of mine, so it's not protection against someone you know stealing your identity.) I don't know why Airbnb needs to know your identity, but I could come up with some reasons. Imagine someone signs up under your name as a host, and their first guests have their laptops stolen. Your name is going to appear on that police report, and that's a pain for you. If the whole fake identity scam can be nipped in the bud, though, this won't happen as often, making life easier for more than just Airbnb's users. I don't think that's a terrible thing. In a business where you're having total strangers stay in your house, is it really an invasion of privacy to ask you to verify you are who you say you are? This isn't an online blogging service or something, after all.
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
Wow, I was planning to use them for the first time for a vacation in a few weeks. No way in hell they're getting my business now. Way more invasive than a hotel. A video? Who seriously thought that this was a good idea?
- mazzer 13y ago
  Hotels unilaterally ask for ID and a credit card these days.
  - koide 13y ago
    It's hard to imagine how a hotel could bilaterally ask you for your ID :-) And in any case, they don't ask you for a Facebook or LinkedIn account to spam you with besides your ID and credit card.
  - bambax 13y ago
    Some (ok, maybe most) hotels ask for an ID when you check in. But I've never been to a hotel that asked for an ID just to make a reservation. I use booking.com, which is perfect BTW, and they never asked for an ID.
  - drharris 13y ago
    Yes, the equivalent would be your host asking to see your ID upon arrival. I don't think people have an issue sharing their identity with a single other person. A soulless corporation on the other hand...
  - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    Which is nothing compared to social media accounts and a credit check.
  - aacook 13y ago
    Yes, but in person. They are not asking you to upload it online... something few people have ever done.
ranman 13y ago
Am I the only person who thinks all of these people are overreacting?
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  How so? I genuinely don't have facebook or linkedin, I genuinely don't want to record a video (in english lol wtf?) with my personal details and I'll genuinely not use them ever if they start doing that to international customers. They think they're unique but their business model is trivial to reproduce once they have alienated half of their audience.
  - ranman 13y ago
    Why are you so opposed to having your identify verified so that hosts know you're not a scammer? You couldn't give them even a library card with your photo on it or something? The ease-of-use of Airbnb is what makes everyone like it... I don't think that's super easy to replicate. I also don't think a quick ID check dramatically reduces the ease-of-use.
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      They don't just want an ID, what they want is an account on some intrusive social network.
- omonra 13y ago
  I'm with you. All these people strike me as entitled twats. As a user, I would much rather deal with the hassle of verified ID than do business with guests/hosts that are unverified.
  - koide 13y ago
    The point is that the means of verification they're implementing are ludicrous. There are MUCH better ways to get a verified ID without causing this uproar, and that's why the only reasonable conclusion is that they are misleading their customers and they are after this for different reasons than the ones stated.
JacobAldridge 13y ago
Seems to me the bigger issue here is HOW they implemented this, not WHY they implemented it. Yes, some people are asking that they personally be allowed to take the risk of hosting unverified people. As AirBNB continues to grow, I understand and agree why they won't let you do it - more cases of drug parties or robberies could ruin their business, and your business isn't worth as much to them as their business. But requiring (if I understand it correctly) one of Facebook, LinkedIn, or a video? Telling you this ~80% of the way through a booking process? Implementing it with no notification (so people currently on holidays suddenly bump into the requirements)? These are the bigger issue. I doubt they will cancel the current implementation plan in order to rethink a new one. But improving upon it - in particular with additional ways to verify identity - seems important.
onemorepassword 13y ago
Airbnb's concept, however wonderful it may be when it does work, is full of practical and legal holes which are now beginning to emerge. The big question is: can Airbnb close those holes without significantly reducing the usefulness of their service? I very much doubt that. Hospitality is an industry with a long history, lots of regulation and self-regulation (which is not just corrupt government protecting incumbents), and disrupting that means tackling a huge range of issues an liabilities which Airbnb heavily oversimplifies. I expect an increase in regulatory intervention, horror-stories in the media, lawsuits and Airbnb becoming increasingly more bureaucratic and complex in an effort to handle that.
- onemorepassword 13y ago
  I wonder what part of this comment was a reason to slowban me?
  - addlepate 13y ago
    Bans just happen, try not to ask yourself why. For example, I bet you will never see this comment!
atechnerd 13y ago
Deja vu when reading the Airbnb reply. Did they really repeat a paragraph, or is that an error in the blog post?
DigitalSea 13y ago
Sounds like the process Paypal have been using for a while. I recall having to send a scan of my passport, drivers licence and Visa card to them a while back to prove I am not a money launderer and using the service for legitimate purposes. While intrusive I am more inclined to trust Paypal than Airbnb for a couple of reasons. One of those being Paypal have been around longer, they've established a rapport and two, I either comply or lose any funds I have in my Paypal account and make it hard for others to send me money in the future. These kinds of processes scare me mostly from a safety point of view, but also from a trust point of view. How do I know the person verifying my credentials on the other end isn't secretly funnelling my documentation off to a nefarious third party using it to get a loan in my name or steal my identity to commit a crime? This has trouble written all over it, surely there is another way? The step requiring LinkedIn or Facebook is just ridiculous, what if you don't use any of those services? If a company like Airbnb wants to dig themselves a hole, why should it be up to us to help them get out of it? I won't be using the service any more because of these changes and I assume others won't either.
- scrrr 13y ago
  One person in that post said it right: "You want people to send you their photo ID / passport? Are you out of your *&#%& mind?" I am not even sure if I am legally ALLOWED to send a copy of my ID anywhere in my country. The right answer to a request from a company asking for such information is "F.U., no".
  - lysium 13y ago
    In Germany, you are not allowed to copy your personal ID document.
    - jacalata 13y ago
      That's an interesting claim, what do you mean?
      - lysium 13y ago
guard-of-terra 13y ago
Airbnb is an inherently international business and there is no way this is going to work for around the globe customers. In many countries people don't use facebook. Linkedin is a joke anyway. Where they do they're not used to authing with it. Where they don't you may use local social networks but they're often anonymous or don't provide api as rich. There is also this huge problem with languages: how are you going to read korean id in hangeul? how are you going to link airbnb name in latin with social network name in cyrillic? do you seriously expect people to be able to record videos in english that can't then be used to ridicule that people (they're going to be public, right?) In many cultures people are just averse of posting private information about them on the web.
- CaptainZapp 13y ago
  In many countries people don't use facebook In my country people use Facebook just fine. It's just that after Facebook more and more turned up the creepy volume to - for me - intolerable levels I chose to "delete" my Facebook account and don't plan to re-activate it ever again. If your business relies on me having a Facebook account (or a specific piece of hardware) then I guess I'm not in the range of your targeted customers and we will never, ever do business together. If you offer an (even more inconvenient) alternative I'm probably fine with that. For example: If your mobile boarding pass doesn't work with my device and I have to print it at an airport kiosk I'm fine with that. If I must have an iPhone to fly with your airline then I guess it's just not meant that we do business together.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    That too. I've seen people annouce proudly they've left facebook, exactly the audience AirBnB wishes to serve.
- hollerith 13y ago
  Having a Facebook or LinkedIn is not necessary for getting verified with Airbnb as long as you are willing to do other things. When I helped a friend get verified, we provided a photo of his driver's license and did that thing which Paypal also does where Airbnb makes two sub-dollar deposits or withdrawals (I forget which) to our bank account, and we have to prove the bank account belongs to us by telling Airbnb the exact amounts of the deposits or withdrawals. EDIT: s/emailed a photo/provided a photo/
NameNickHN 13y ago
What I don't get is how is a video supposed to verify anything? Why did they pick loyal customers to do the verification? It would be more comprehensible if they required it from new customers. And lastly, why don't they use a real id confirmation service. Where I live we can go to the local post office, show some ID and that's it. No sending personal data anywhere.
bambax 13y ago
Requiring users to record an "introduction video" is beyond parody; next step is probably to provide a front-and-back naked picture of yourself holding today's newspaper. And you thought DHS was bad! And you thought "regulations" were bad! Let's get rid of it all! Let's disrupt! But now, Facebook decides to police jokes according to vague claims by special-interest groups [1] and AirBnB requires its users to do a little dance for them before they can use their services. Democracy has a lot of flaws, but constitutional rights and democratically voted laws, and a functioning judicial system, and well-run government agencies (I know, I know) are several orders of magnitude preferable to petty policies that grow in the mind of the average "community manager". [1] https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-safety/controversial-harmful-and-hateful-speech-on-facebook/574430655911054 https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-safety/controversial...
dwightgunning 13y ago
"Quit trying to mine data under the guise of trust." A commenter to the original AirBnB announcement. So true and happens all the time.
mcintyre1994 13y ago
Wow, this could be interesting. Scaling this across the world, reliably verifying anybody in the world, seems like an extremely hard problem, especially with the restraint that people can't just walk away.
mike_esspe 13y ago
It's already a common practice in Russia to ask for ID during check-in. Why not ask all hosts to do it, it will have less friction for guests. Lately, my Russian friend was trying to do a last minute reservation via Airbnb and they asked for verification. Russian users do not have facebook, they use vk.com, and instead of linkedin they have moikrug.ru. So she had to use a local alternative (sutochno.ru). Lost money for Airbnb.
nchuhoai 13y ago
I am building a trust platform for p2p marketplaces (https://www.credport.org https://www.credport.org) and while there have been many great points mentioned in this thread, I'd like to chime in as well. In general, most of the critics seem to say one of the two: 1. I'm obviously trustworthy, just look at me. 2. I want to have choice, I want to decide whether to host someone unverified or not. What people need to realize about trust in p2p marketplaces is that trust is irrelevant, it's the experience that matters. At the end of the day, it matters whether you get what you wanted, and if you didn't, well fuck, it must be Airbnb's fault. It's never the users fault. Think about it. On eBay, people get scammed every day. Does anyone say "well, that's just the users fault"? No, everyone says "eBay is full of scammers, I will never do it again". Same with the AppStores/Software Downloads. It's mostly the user's fault for downloading malicious software, but the platform always gets blamed. So what you do in this case, and what Airbnb is doing is to "clean" the platform, cause the last thing you want is to have another Methlab incident or become the next eBay
orangethirty 13y ago
I'm just waiting for the first AirBnB user that declines to leave the rental property. Eviction in some places is a really hard and long process.
toddmorey 13y ago
My question: What exactly is AirB&B trying to solve for here? Is it safety for the host? Legal requirements? Payment fraud and chargebacks? As mentioned in the article, it feels like increased verification requirements should be an option available to to the host rather than a universal requirement. One important lesson learned: no one wants to record a brief video as a step of any verification process.
- aacook 13y ago
  Agreed the video is somewhat ridiculous. It could be a supply/demand tilt (more demand than supply: weed out the crappy demand). It could also be a long term move. If they're able to have all verified people in the network, they'll have basically the most powerful local network ever created.
mbesto 13y ago
Ah my friends, this is what happens when you reach scale. It means you have to protect against every little black swan that comes along (mainly for PR reasons) which overburdens the rest of the white swans. This reminds me of all of the companies trying to compete against PayPal, who tell themselves and customers that "We'll do it better this time I swear!". I can't wait until they try to reach the size of PayPal and realize their whole business model is based solely on fraud prevention. Something not easily, dare I say possibly, solved by any algorithm. This is also why I like 37Signals, since they let their customers outgrow their software. For every project manager that says "ugh basecamp doesnt do this, I need something else", 37Signals quietly says "see ya later, you'll be back in a year!"
stratosvoukel 13y ago
A big concern of mine is that this verification process does not seem inclusive to transgender people. Obviously the official documentation of these people would not necessarily match their online profiles , or in case of video their appearance. Thoughts?
- moheeb 13y ago
  No one really cares about transgender people. They make up such a small percentage of the population that they're not worth worrying about. In nearly all cases they are forced into the existing system/structure, unless legally required otherwise.
  - stratosvoukel 13y ago
    Do you think that this is right or wrong? I think that it is wrong. Also the assumption that they make such a small percentage is wrong.
    - ranman 13y ago
      I don't think it's right or wrong (on the part of Airbnb, maybe wrong on the part of society as a whole -- there are federal laws for handicap/accessibility problems but not yet for self-identity not matching government issued identity) The issue is that transgender people make up (I'm guessing and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) < 5% of the general population. I would then assume that < 1% of the Airbnb population is transgender. That's a low enough number that it is more efficient for Airbnb to solve for those issues on a case by case basis rather than in code / process changes. Simple case of optimizing for the 90% instead of the 100% -- if that's offensive then I apologize but in my opinion it's justified in the near-term (maybe not in the long-term)
ISeemToBeAVerb 13y ago
I think AirBnB has every right to ask its users to verify their identity in some way. It just so happens, the methods they chose were maybe not the best options for their UX. I mean, I don't see how you can go half way on this. Leaving the choice up to the host doesn't protect anyone. It's easy to say "hey, I don't want to bother with this.", but the minute something DOES go wrong, who are they going to blame? AirBnB. They have to cover their ass, simple as that. It sucks, but we live in a litigious society that loves to transfer blame. If you were in a position where you had to make a tough choice and disappoint some people to protect your family(or company), you'd do it too. As far as data mining goes... what's new? Are there any massive scale online businesses that aren't looking for new ways to mine their users for marketing and business data? I don't like it either, but I can't say I didn't expect it.
freyr 13y ago
I objected when a roommate wanted to rent out our living room on Airbnb. I realize that the probability is extremely low that we'd end up with a deranged lunatic in our house. But for me, that tiny possibility (and more so the irrational stress that accompanies it) far outweighs the benefit making a few extra bucks on the side. So would I reconsider using Airbnb now that they have Verified IDs? Probably not. The root of the issue is that I don't want strangers in my house while I'm asleep. Even if Airbnb has their info on file, they're still strangers to me. This move likely alienates many of their core users, while offering no appeal to non-users like me. Perhaps there is another segment this appeals to -- users who are concerned about the possibility of petty crime, and who feel this would be a deterrent or would aid with legal recourse?
stefantalpalaru 13y ago
Bankruptcy is normal in a free market. Let's let Airbnb disappear and make room for better companies.
Travelchick 13y ago
Wow... what on earth are they thinking? And what on earth are some people who have commented thinking, to support this? I go to hotels, hostels, couch-surf, etc; I know people who rent properties with varying degrees of seriousness and involvement, and couch-surfing hosts. I interact with people who do these things on every continent. Airbnb is ridiculously out of line; it's requiring more than authoritarian governments do, much less any of its competition.
crucini 13y ago
I don't know much personally about airbnb. I wonder how many bad incidents airbnb has facilitated? Searching for "airbnb robberies" seems to point to only one incident (San Francisco) where the victim blogged about it. But generally we shouldn't expect to hear about crimes facilitated by airbnb. Neither the cops nor the victims have an incentive to publicize it. airbnb may have paid out a lot in hush money and settlements. So, while this new identity scheme is unwelcome and intrusive, it may be the only way forward for airbnb.
jspiral 13y ago
I think i was an involuntary early adopter of this process, my experience was that the ID upload kept failing and then broke the connection to my linkedin and facebook accounts. Support wasn't able to help, beyond suggesting I make a video. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284
whynotbalu 13y ago
Anyone else surprised at the fact that this poor UX is happening at a company and founding team that pride themselves in their design roots? Wtf.
zephyrnh 13y ago
Hey everyone, I'm one of the engineers who worked on Verified ID. I'm going to keep reading all the comments people leave, but rather than respond to all of them on here, I've written up some of my thoughts on our blog: http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/ http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/ I'd just like to stress that this doesn't address all the issues brought up, since some of them require more time, but I'm happy to answer more questions if you leave a comment on my post.

202 points by emhart 13y ago

1) Why should we help a company valued at over $1 billion dig itself out of a hole of its own making? 2) The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this.

neeee 13y ago
>The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. No. One out of the eight comments quoted mentions it, and the author does not.
unreal37 13y ago
I like the tone of Doc's post. Very positive and solution focused. As for #2, it remains to be seen I guess how much % drop in AirBNB bookings are caused by this. It will be some number, but obviously I think they're prepared for it. I don't think this has anything to do with "unregistered hotels".
- groundCode 13y ago
  I like the tone of Doc's post as well, however, as a consumer, I don't think it's my problem to help a company out if they suck at serving their customer.....and if I don my entrepreneurial hat, the more AirBNB annoy people, the bigger the opportunity for a good competitor to pick up the pieces.
gojomo 13y ago
Volume bookings via AirBnB are only illegal in some particularly authoritarian jurisdictions. Most places, those are within its "proper purpose".
- Xylakant 13y ago
  From the news that I've been following, those "particularly authoritarian jurisdictions" include about every country with some level of regulations for the hotel industry - which basically includes each and every european country and the USA.
blottsie 13y ago
> The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings. This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this. You incorrectly assume here that the only people who rely on a high volume of guests are those who do so illegally. Many Airbnb hosts operate a vacation rental property that they own. And they often rely on the income that property generates. These people – the ones that often maintain the best vacation rentals Airbnb offers – face the most damage from a drop in bookings. And Airbnb should be very concerned about that.
- aacook 13y ago
  Luckily Airbnb's success is based off revenue share. So if there is actually a drop in bookings, Airbnb has an interest in killing this feature. My guess? They already tested it on a small subset of their users and it's working well. Furthermore, if they have a network of all verified and trusted users, the network is going to be incredibly strong. edit: sp error
aacook 13y ago
I disagree with your 2nd point. This seems like over generalizing. You're saying that every Airbnb host that is upset about this change is suddenly using Airbnb illegally? Definitely not true. It sounds like the verification flow has some serious design/flow problems. If I'm an Airbnb host in a major city and I have an affordable and highly rated place, I'm likely to attract all kinds of guests: both sophisticated and unsophisticated. For example, the most frequented place on Airbnb in San Francisco has probably seen hundreds of guests from around the world: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/33577 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/33577 Different people are different. Not everyone actually has a government issued ID. This does not mean they are necessarily illegal or untrustworthy. I think many people are going to freak out about these requirements... not just people without IDs, but average people who find the process intrusive. Do I have to answer security questions and upload my ID when booking a hotel? No. However, maybe Airbnb has already tested this on a smaller random set of their listings and proven it doesn't reduce bookings.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Don't hotels usually take your ID at the front desk when you check in?
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    No. They are more interested in your money. You can even pay cash with a deposit. Actually, hotels don't require your actual identity. Many people like celebrities, public figures, some business travellers routinely provide fake information to hotels.
    - notahacker 13y ago
      That depends on the jurisdiction. In some countries hotels will actually insist on keeping your passport until checkout, and in others some have genuinely considered turning me away when all I had was a photocopy of a lost passport and a police report.
      - 13y ago

nathan_f77 13y ago

No matter what you do, there's always going to be complaints. Verified ID is a seriously good idea. I would definitely feel safer hosting verified people. Of course, they might still be horrible guests, but that will be their last visit with any AirBnb host.

sdas7 13y ago
Good on ya. But it should be an option, not forced. If you only want to host people with "Verified ID", then just reject anybody who doesn't have it.
- unreal37 13y ago
  With a $1 million "burn your home down" guarantee, and future bad press on the line, AirBNB doesn't want to take the risk that you want to take.
- signed0 13y ago
  If I read the article correctly, hosts are still in control as to whether they will allow all guests or just verified. Did I misinterpret this? Is the uproar over the mandate that a random 25% of users are now required to go through verification?
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    25% is really high and might as well be mandatory. Only a fool would count on not having to verify, especially when they don't tell you until the last second. This isn't a pilot program, this is a massive, invasive change.
- jacalata 13y ago
  It is an option. Last I heard, you could still advertise short term rentals on Craigslist, after all.

rurounijones 13y ago

I love the usual weaselly worded "We apologize if our changes caused you distress" automated response to her second email. That kind of corporate lingo is what I expect from soulless corporations. [EDIT] To make it clear. She offered lots of suggestions on what other services they could use and instead of a personal "Thanks for that, we will investigate" they gave her the brush-off with an obviously automated email. Pretty shoddy customer relations.

hkmurakami 13y ago
Wasn't Airbnb the company where the founders took a special dividend using funds from one of the later VC rounds (which Ron Conway publicly objected to)? That sounds like something leaders of soulless corporations would do.
- cmbaus 13y ago
  I hadn't heard this. Dividends are a great way to screw over option holders, who are often employees.
  - DHowett 13y ago
    There were certainly other ways they were trying to screw over option holders (lit. employees), too. (EDIT: Source: Prior working relationship with the company. Fought "tooth and nail" against this Verified ID junk.)
    - e_w 13y ago
      Can you expand on that?
- kiyoto 13y ago
  No, it was Chamath who called them out (They later reconciled). http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiya-decries-airbnbs-recent-112m-funding-for-excessive-founder-control-and-cashout-in-email/ http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiy... and http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palihapitiya-settle-differences-with-employees-to-get-liquidity/ http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palih...

danso 13y ago

> As a host, it is up to me to choose who I allow in my home. I like that I can decide how many requirements to place on my guests. Should I choose to place strict requirements, I get more protection and probably fewer bookings. I like having the choice. Airbnb just took the choice away from me and I’m not happy about it. Before we get into arguments about the validity of libertarianism...I think it shouldn't be shocking that when a company becomes large (with more at stake), they have to act in ways that will be overbearing in comparison to what they were before. The quoted complaint above could easily apply to, let's say, the Apple iOS store, in which decisions are made heavily in favor of playing it safe and clean. I would like to argue that I'm wise enough to make my own choices about downloading immoral/unpleasant apps...and I'm entitled to make that argument. However, I can't argue that this...ahem, proactive policy prevents a great many shit-fests that might otherwise arise were it not in place. And I really can't dispute that Apple so far been wildly successful in the app marketplace. Likewise, from Airbnb's perspective, I can see why they've made the calculation that proactively preventing scammers is overall, a good business decision. Because a few disasters from slightly foolish customers is enough to doom the entire ship.

bradleyjg 13y ago
How exactly does a LinkedIn or Facebook profile, much less a personal video, prevent scammers? All three of those are trivial to fake. On the other hand a public feedback system with persistent identities, which they already have is harder to game. No, this is a ham fisted marketing initiative pretending to be about security. Why they didn't just buy 'likes' with coupons like every other scummy company out there, I don't know.
- lbarrow 13y ago
  It's actually not super easy to fake a Facebook or LinkedIn presence. Most services that use social media presence as an identity check ask questions like: 1. How long has your account been active? 2. Does your account have a human-like pattern of activity? 3. Do your social graphs overlap realistically? Are you Facebook friends with your LinkedIn connections? Etc. It'd take an extremely patient scammer to fake that sort of data. It can be done, of course, it's not trivial.

encoderer 13y ago

Generally, I feel people are too cynical. And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph at first made my eyes roll. But the truth is, there are a lot of things we do online that require real, meaningful identity verification. You put your SSN and DOB in and the computer gives you a series of multiple-choice questions from items on your credit report. People are used to them. They work. And at the least, why not offer the credit report ID verification as the backup, perhaps alongside this video? Seems to me it would really cover their bases: The free spirits who would sooner die than submit to a credit check can produce a video. The professional, 2-million-miler, harvard-law types wouldn't flinch at an identity check that they've done every time they opened a credit card or bank account or many investment accounts or used the US Treasury or IRS systems or a credit monitoring product or, the list goes on. There's just a nominal cost associated with these, and unlike applications for credit they do not impact a persons credit score. I'm not sold, but maybe there's something to the reliance on Facebook and LinkedIn afterall?

s_baby 13y ago
I have neither. What am I supposed to do?
- mwfunk 13y ago
  Don't use a service that requires you to have one? Or make an account with one of them so you can use a service that requires you to have one? Seems pretty straightforward.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    1) seems straightforward along with making them a bad name every time it comes to discussion.
prodigal_erik 13y ago
> And writing-off the Facebook and LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph Even if they actually didn't set out to get it (unlikely), I have no doubt at all that they'll abuse it once they have it. Rule #1: spammers lie.

triplesec 13y ago

Inevitable as a company get bigger it likes bureaucracy more and wants to cover its ass over being sued for bad experiences. We all hate Paypal for its overofficcious moneylaundering ID requests which, should its dBs be compromised could easily screw the finances of millions. Do we really want to give these people IDs?

Vivtek 13y ago
The difference there is that Paypal is required by law to make those ID requests. AirBNB is not.
- triplesec 13y ago
  Oh quite right! This is why I'm entirely against this, whereas I just deeply hate Paypal's lack of customer service.

gojomo 13y ago

In the middle of a recent trip, AirBnB asked me for more verification info to make a new reservation -- credit-report-based questions -- even though I'd already... (1) been a well-reviewed AirBnB guest on multiple occasions; (2) concluded transactions through them on more than one CC for those previous stays; (3) linked my Facebook and LinkedIn profiles long ago. Such verification questions can involve things like car loans from more than a decade ago, and on at least one of the questions I wasn't even sure I remembered the right answer. Though I understand they have fraud concerns, I felt it kind of obnoxious to spring this new requirement on me in the middle of a trip, when I was depending on AirBnB working the same as before (and indeed as it had worked on my 1st AirBnB reservation of the same trip). Had I been required to send a scan of some government ID, I'd have felt even more like they'd breached our prior understanding, without warning, at an inconvenient time.

lucisferre 13y ago

> Banks lose customer data all the time and they have some of the most stringent standards possible Tell that to my maximum 6 digit, no special characters bank web login pin.

graue 13y ago

Interesting to read about the story behind this. I recently tried to use Airbnb to get a last minute spot in Boston. The most annoying part of the ID process was that it acted like everything was cool, let me browse the site, let me make a reservation and put in my credit card info, and only then told me to give them tons of extra info before they would process the reservation. I actually tried to go through their process and it was quite draconian. They ask for tons of stuff. Last 4 of SSN was one part, and they also asked questions about streets I lived on years ago, specifically, which county those streets are in. They must have a contract with someone who has a database of this kind of stuff. But I got through that and was hung up on the last step, "Online ID", which requires a Facebook account (don't use it under my real last name), LinkedIn account (don't have one), or recording an introduction video (not possible while I'm sitting in a busy coffeeshop, also seemed like a pretty absurd ask). At this point I wanted to bail out but there was no "Cancel Reservation" button anywhere and they had my CC info hostage. So I had to close my whole account. By the way, this was an account I had previously used to book an Airbnb place with no problems, and got a positive review from the guy. The surprise ID requirements struck me as manipulative, as if they knew if they'd asked for all this stuff before I booked a night, I wouldn't have used their site. So they pretended they were going to hook me up with a room, then sprung this out of nowhere.

jrockway 13y ago
The "creepy questions" are a pretty standard identity verification scheme. If you ever open a bank or brokerage account online, you'll probably be asked these. They're used because they're simple and work reasonably well. Anyone can steal or guess the last four digits of your SSN or driver's license, but it's harder to learn random details of your life. (Then again, I recently answered the creepy questions for a friend of mine, so it's not protection against someone you know stealing your identity.) I don't know why Airbnb needs to know your identity, but I could come up with some reasons. Imagine someone signs up under your name as a host, and their first guests have their laptops stolen. Your name is going to appear on that police report, and that's a pain for you. If the whole fake identity scam can be nipped in the bud, though, this won't happen as often, making life easier for more than just Airbnb's users. I don't think that's a terrible thing. In a business where you're having total strangers stay in your house, is it really an invasion of privacy to ask you to verify you are who you say you are? This isn't an online blogging service or something, after all.

lawnchair_larry 13y ago

Wow, I was planning to use them for the first time for a vacation in a few weeks. No way in hell they're getting my business now. Way more invasive than a hotel. A video? Who seriously thought that this was a good idea?

mazzer 13y ago
Hotels unilaterally ask for ID and a credit card these days.
- koide 13y ago
  It's hard to imagine how a hotel could bilaterally ask you for your ID :-) And in any case, they don't ask you for a Facebook or LinkedIn account to spam you with besides your ID and credit card.
- bambax 13y ago
  Some (ok, maybe most) hotels ask for an ID when you check in. But I've never been to a hotel that asked for an ID just to make a reservation. I use booking.com, which is perfect BTW, and they never asked for an ID.
- drharris 13y ago
  Yes, the equivalent would be your host asking to see your ID upon arrival. I don't think people have an issue sharing their identity with a single other person. A soulless corporation on the other hand...
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  Which is nothing compared to social media accounts and a credit check.
- aacook 13y ago
  Yes, but in person. They are not asking you to upload it online... something few people have ever done.

ranman 13y ago

Am I the only person who thinks all of these people are overreacting?

guard-of-terra 13y ago
How so? I genuinely don't have facebook or linkedin, I genuinely don't want to record a video (in english lol wtf?) with my personal details and I'll genuinely not use them ever if they start doing that to international customers. They think they're unique but their business model is trivial to reproduce once they have alienated half of their audience.
- ranman 13y ago
  Why are you so opposed to having your identify verified so that hosts know you're not a scammer? You couldn't give them even a library card with your photo on it or something? The ease-of-use of Airbnb is what makes everyone like it... I don't think that's super easy to replicate. I also don't think a quick ID check dramatically reduces the ease-of-use.
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    They don't just want an ID, what they want is an account on some intrusive social network.
omonra 13y ago
I'm with you. All these people strike me as entitled twats. As a user, I would much rather deal with the hassle of verified ID than do business with guests/hosts that are unverified.
- koide 13y ago
  The point is that the means of verification they're implementing are ludicrous. There are MUCH better ways to get a verified ID without causing this uproar, and that's why the only reasonable conclusion is that they are misleading their customers and they are after this for different reasons than the ones stated.

JacobAldridge 13y ago

Seems to me the bigger issue here is HOW they implemented this, not WHY they implemented it. Yes, some people are asking that they personally be allowed to take the risk of hosting unverified people. As AirBNB continues to grow, I understand and agree why they won't let you do it - more cases of drug parties or robberies could ruin their business, and your business isn't worth as much to them as their business. But requiring (if I understand it correctly) one of Facebook, LinkedIn, or a video? Telling you this ~80% of the way through a booking process? Implementing it with no notification (so people currently on holidays suddenly bump into the requirements)? These are the bigger issue. I doubt they will cancel the current implementation plan in order to rethink a new one. But improving upon it - in particular with additional ways to verify identity - seems important.

onemorepassword 13y ago

Airbnb's concept, however wonderful it may be when it does work, is full of practical and legal holes which are now beginning to emerge. The big question is: can Airbnb close those holes without significantly reducing the usefulness of their service? I very much doubt that. Hospitality is an industry with a long history, lots of regulation and self-regulation (which is not just corrupt government protecting incumbents), and disrupting that means tackling a huge range of issues an liabilities which Airbnb heavily oversimplifies. I expect an increase in regulatory intervention, horror-stories in the media, lawsuits and Airbnb becoming increasingly more bureaucratic and complex in an effort to handle that.

onemorepassword 13y ago
I wonder what part of this comment was a reason to slowban me?
- addlepate 13y ago
  Bans just happen, try not to ask yourself why. For example, I bet you will never see this comment!

atechnerd 13y ago

Deja vu when reading the Airbnb reply. Did they really repeat a paragraph, or is that an error in the blog post?

DigitalSea 13y ago

Sounds like the process Paypal have been using for a while. I recall having to send a scan of my passport, drivers licence and Visa card to them a while back to prove I am not a money launderer and using the service for legitimate purposes. While intrusive I am more inclined to trust Paypal than Airbnb for a couple of reasons. One of those being Paypal have been around longer, they've established a rapport and two, I either comply or lose any funds I have in my Paypal account and make it hard for others to send me money in the future. These kinds of processes scare me mostly from a safety point of view, but also from a trust point of view. How do I know the person verifying my credentials on the other end isn't secretly funnelling my documentation off to a nefarious third party using it to get a loan in my name or steal my identity to commit a crime? This has trouble written all over it, surely there is another way? The step requiring LinkedIn or Facebook is just ridiculous, what if you don't use any of those services? If a company like Airbnb wants to dig themselves a hole, why should it be up to us to help them get out of it? I won't be using the service any more because of these changes and I assume others won't either.

scrrr 13y ago
One person in that post said it right: "You want people to send you their photo ID / passport? Are you out of your *&#%& mind?" I am not even sure if I am legally ALLOWED to send a copy of my ID anywhere in my country. The right answer to a request from a company asking for such information is "F.U., no".
- lysium 13y ago
  In Germany, you are not allowed to copy your personal ID document.
  - jacalata 13y ago
    That's an interesting claim, what do you mean?
    - lysium 13y ago

guard-of-terra 13y ago

Airbnb is an inherently international business and there is no way this is going to work for around the globe customers. In many countries people don't use facebook. Linkedin is a joke anyway. Where they do they're not used to authing with it. Where they don't you may use local social networks but they're often anonymous or don't provide api as rich. There is also this huge problem with languages: how are you going to read korean id in hangeul? how are you going to link airbnb name in latin with social network name in cyrillic? do you seriously expect people to be able to record videos in english that can't then be used to ridicule that people (they're going to be public, right?) In many cultures people are just averse of posting private information about them on the web.

CaptainZapp 13y ago
In many countries people don't use facebook In my country people use Facebook just fine. It's just that after Facebook more and more turned up the creepy volume to - for me - intolerable levels I chose to "delete" my Facebook account and don't plan to re-activate it ever again. If your business relies on me having a Facebook account (or a specific piece of hardware) then I guess I'm not in the range of your targeted customers and we will never, ever do business together. If you offer an (even more inconvenient) alternative I'm probably fine with that. For example: If your mobile boarding pass doesn't work with my device and I have to print it at an airport kiosk I'm fine with that. If I must have an iPhone to fly with your airline then I guess it's just not meant that we do business together.
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  That too. I've seen people annouce proudly they've left facebook, exactly the audience AirBnB wishes to serve.
hollerith 13y ago
Having a Facebook or LinkedIn is not necessary for getting verified with Airbnb as long as you are willing to do other things. When I helped a friend get verified, we provided a photo of his driver's license and did that thing which Paypal also does where Airbnb makes two sub-dollar deposits or withdrawals (I forget which) to our bank account, and we have to prove the bank account belongs to us by telling Airbnb the exact amounts of the deposits or withdrawals. EDIT: s/emailed a photo/provided a photo/

NameNickHN 13y ago

What I don't get is how is a video supposed to verify anything? Why did they pick loyal customers to do the verification? It would be more comprehensible if they required it from new customers. And lastly, why don't they use a real id confirmation service. Where I live we can go to the local post office, show some ID and that's it. No sending personal data anywhere.

bambax 13y ago

Requiring users to record an "introduction video" is beyond parody; next step is probably to provide a front-and-back naked picture of yourself holding today's newspaper. And you thought DHS was bad! And you thought "regulations" were bad! Let's get rid of it all! Let's disrupt! But now, Facebook decides to police jokes according to vague claims by special-interest groups [1] and AirBnB requires its users to do a little dance for them before they can use their services. Democracy has a lot of flaws, but constitutional rights and democratically voted laws, and a functioning judicial system, and well-run government agencies (I know, I know) are several orders of magnitude preferable to petty policies that grow in the mind of the average "community manager". [1] https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-safety/controversial-harmful-and-hateful-speech-on-facebook/574430655911054 https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-safety/controversial...

dwightgunning 13y ago

"Quit trying to mine data under the guise of trust." A commenter to the original AirBnB announcement. So true and happens all the time.

mcintyre1994 13y ago

Wow, this could be interesting. Scaling this across the world, reliably verifying anybody in the world, seems like an extremely hard problem, especially with the restraint that people can't just walk away.

mike_esspe 13y ago

It's already a common practice in Russia to ask for ID during check-in. Why not ask all hosts to do it, it will have less friction for guests. Lately, my Russian friend was trying to do a last minute reservation via Airbnb and they asked for verification. Russian users do not have facebook, they use vk.com, and instead of linkedin they have moikrug.ru. So she had to use a local alternative (sutochno.ru). Lost money for Airbnb.

nchuhoai 13y ago

I am building a trust platform for p2p marketplaces (https://www.credport.org https://www.credport.org) and while there have been many great points mentioned in this thread, I'd like to chime in as well. In general, most of the critics seem to say one of the two: 1. I'm obviously trustworthy, just look at me. 2. I want to have choice, I want to decide whether to host someone unverified or not. What people need to realize about trust in p2p marketplaces is that trust is irrelevant, it's the experience that matters. At the end of the day, it matters whether you get what you wanted, and if you didn't, well fuck, it must be Airbnb's fault. It's never the users fault. Think about it. On eBay, people get scammed every day. Does anyone say "well, that's just the users fault"? No, everyone says "eBay is full of scammers, I will never do it again". Same with the AppStores/Software Downloads. It's mostly the user's fault for downloading malicious software, but the platform always gets blamed. So what you do in this case, and what Airbnb is doing is to "clean" the platform, cause the last thing you want is to have another Methlab incident or become the next eBay

orangethirty 13y ago

I'm just waiting for the first AirBnB user that declines to leave the rental property. Eviction in some places is a really hard and long process.

toddmorey 13y ago

My question: What exactly is AirB&B trying to solve for here? Is it safety for the host? Legal requirements? Payment fraud and chargebacks? As mentioned in the article, it feels like increased verification requirements should be an option available to to the host rather than a universal requirement. One important lesson learned: no one wants to record a brief video as a step of any verification process.

aacook 13y ago
Agreed the video is somewhat ridiculous. It could be a supply/demand tilt (more demand than supply: weed out the crappy demand). It could also be a long term move. If they're able to have all verified people in the network, they'll have basically the most powerful local network ever created.

mbesto 13y ago

Ah my friends, this is what happens when you reach scale. It means you have to protect against every little black swan that comes along (mainly for PR reasons) which overburdens the rest of the white swans. This reminds me of all of the companies trying to compete against PayPal, who tell themselves and customers that "We'll do it better this time I swear!". I can't wait until they try to reach the size of PayPal and realize their whole business model is based solely on fraud prevention. Something not easily, dare I say possibly, solved by any algorithm. This is also why I like 37Signals, since they let their customers outgrow their software. For every project manager that says "ugh basecamp doesnt do this, I need something else", 37Signals quietly says "see ya later, you'll be back in a year!"

stratosvoukel 13y ago

A big concern of mine is that this verification process does not seem inclusive to transgender people. Obviously the official documentation of these people would not necessarily match their online profiles , or in case of video their appearance. Thoughts?

moheeb 13y ago
No one really cares about transgender people. They make up such a small percentage of the population that they're not worth worrying about. In nearly all cases they are forced into the existing system/structure, unless legally required otherwise.
- stratosvoukel 13y ago
  Do you think that this is right or wrong? I think that it is wrong. Also the assumption that they make such a small percentage is wrong.
  - ranman 13y ago
    I don't think it's right or wrong (on the part of Airbnb, maybe wrong on the part of society as a whole -- there are federal laws for handicap/accessibility problems but not yet for self-identity not matching government issued identity) The issue is that transgender people make up (I'm guessing and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) < 5% of the general population. I would then assume that < 1% of the Airbnb population is transgender. That's a low enough number that it is more efficient for Airbnb to solve for those issues on a case by case basis rather than in code / process changes. Simple case of optimizing for the 90% instead of the 100% -- if that's offensive then I apologize but in my opinion it's justified in the near-term (maybe not in the long-term)

ISeemToBeAVerb 13y ago

I think AirBnB has every right to ask its users to verify their identity in some way. It just so happens, the methods they chose were maybe not the best options for their UX. I mean, I don't see how you can go half way on this. Leaving the choice up to the host doesn't protect anyone. It's easy to say "hey, I don't want to bother with this.", but the minute something DOES go wrong, who are they going to blame? AirBnB. They have to cover their ass, simple as that. It sucks, but we live in a litigious society that loves to transfer blame. If you were in a position where you had to make a tough choice and disappoint some people to protect your family(or company), you'd do it too. As far as data mining goes... what's new? Are there any massive scale online businesses that aren't looking for new ways to mine their users for marketing and business data? I don't like it either, but I can't say I didn't expect it.

freyr 13y ago

I objected when a roommate wanted to rent out our living room on Airbnb. I realize that the probability is extremely low that we'd end up with a deranged lunatic in our house. But for me, that tiny possibility (and more so the irrational stress that accompanies it) far outweighs the benefit making a few extra bucks on the side. So would I reconsider using Airbnb now that they have Verified IDs? Probably not. The root of the issue is that I don't want strangers in my house while I'm asleep. Even if Airbnb has their info on file, they're still strangers to me. This move likely alienates many of their core users, while offering no appeal to non-users like me. Perhaps there is another segment this appeals to -- users who are concerned about the possibility of petty crime, and who feel this would be a deterrent or would aid with legal recourse?

stefantalpalaru 13y ago

Bankruptcy is normal in a free market. Let's let Airbnb disappear and make room for better companies.

Travelchick 13y ago

Wow... what on earth are they thinking? And what on earth are some people who have commented thinking, to support this? I go to hotels, hostels, couch-surf, etc; I know people who rent properties with varying degrees of seriousness and involvement, and couch-surfing hosts. I interact with people who do these things on every continent. Airbnb is ridiculously out of line; it's requiring more than authoritarian governments do, much less any of its competition.

crucini 13y ago

I don't know much personally about airbnb. I wonder how many bad incidents airbnb has facilitated? Searching for "airbnb robberies" seems to point to only one incident (San Francisco) where the victim blogged about it. But generally we shouldn't expect to hear about crimes facilitated by airbnb. Neither the cops nor the victims have an incentive to publicize it. airbnb may have paid out a lot in hush money and settlements. So, while this new identity scheme is unwelcome and intrusive, it may be the only way forward for airbnb.

jspiral 13y ago

I think i was an involuntary early adopter of this process, my experience was that the ID upload kept failing and then broke the connection to my linkedin and facebook accounts. Support wasn't able to help, beyond suggesting I make a video. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284

whynotbalu 13y ago

Anyone else surprised at the fact that this poor UX is happening at a company and founding team that pride themselves in their design roots? Wtf.

zephyrnh 13y ago

Hey everyone, I'm one of the engineers who worked on Verified ID. I'm going to keep reading all the comments people leave, but rather than respond to all of them on here, I've written up some of my thoughts on our blog: http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/ http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/ I'd just like to stress that this doesn't address all the issues brought up, since some of them require more time, but I'm happy to answer more questions if you leave a comment on my post.