6 ms·

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competiti

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I negotiate a package with someone, I want to do 2 things: 1) make sure I compensate them fairly. I've learned that skimping on salary is penny wise and pound foolish. If an employee feels slighted by their compensation they'll start looking for a new job immediately after starting working with me. 2) make sure I'm not over paying and setting myself up for resetting my entire salary structure. Raising salaries is part of doing business, resetting salaries downwards is darn near impossible to do.

johnrob 13y ago
I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.
- jtbigwoo 13y ago
  Counter offers have a really low success rate in my experience. That person has already weighed the pros and cons of staying and decided to leave. It won't take much to push them to leave again. In addition, everybody else in the company now has an incentive to look for a new job themselves since they see a short cut to get a raise. Better to keep people happy by offering market-rate salaries in the first place.
- praptak 13y ago
  > It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they threaten to leave". Nope, counteroffers are for suckers.
  - betenoire 13y ago
    What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?
    - hfsktr 13y ago
      I would assume after threatening to leave. Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money. Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far already.
      - betenoire 13y ago
        That makes sense to me, once I've decided to move on, I'm done: it's not about the money at that point. But since the article was about job offers, and so were most of the comments, I thought I may have missed something.
- ajross 13y ago
  Honestly I think 2) is the more common mistake. Yes, employers should be looking to offer regular raises that match what an employee "could" get on the market, but that's hard even when you have the funds available and your employees' best interests in mind. On the other hand, it's absolutely routine in my experience to watch managers bend rules and ignore feedback to bring in very expensive "senior" people to the team (often based on nothing more than a resume). All the incentives are wrong for this: everyone wants senior underlings, there's the "prestige" value in buying expensive commodities, you want to feel like your team is in the "big leagues". And if done badly it can do terrible damage to a functioning team. It's never good to bring on an unproductive employee. Unproductive architects will kill your product.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  > I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. That is why they combine it with convincing their employees that they should be lucky to have their job. My former employer got a lot of mileage out of that. It was made easier because some of the people there were lucky to have a job (based on competence or specialty).
hfsktr 13y ago
I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of summed up what I had been thinking all along. It was all I could do not to shout YES right away (before I even saw the details).
- broham 13y ago
  Congrats! Here's hoping that you'll be happy there.
- orangethirty 13y ago
  I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.
  - hfsktr 13y ago
    Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can prove to this new place I am worth taking a chance on. Just feels good to not have to worry that I am a failure (at least for now).
    - orangethirty 13y ago
      You will never be a failure.
    - roguecoder 13y ago
      If you do well, it's also possible to negotiate once you are already employed. You'll probably be more valuable to the company after a year, since you'll know how things work, and chances are good that your alternatives will have improved. I've always brought it up in a positive way ("I think I've been contributing significant value and would like to find a way for my compensation to reflect that"), but the managers understand the subtext ("now that I have a year's experience here, other companies are calling me at home.") Success will depend on the company, but it can work.
notahacker 13y ago
I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.
- mhurron 13y ago
  If they offer well below market rate, they didn't love you. An offer that much lower than what you could expect elsewhere is probably not worth negotiating with, they've already what they value you at. Obviously this means you need to do your research and have a realistic idea what your skill set is worth. Don't let ego get in the way of that research.
- dmourati 13y ago
  +1 for BATNA. So few people understand this core concept. http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna
  - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
    Great link. Here's another one, with pictures: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  Very true. I have an illustration of this here: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
gyardley 13y ago
This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional raise on the spot; most likely, they'll ask what you'll need, you'll throw out some ludicrously high figure, and you'll split the difference somewhere in the middle. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. They're already thinking about all the work you're going to do for them, and how much longer it's going to take to find another suitable candidate. They also know that many candidates negotiate, so they likely didn't lead with their best offer. In this situation, you are extremely likely to improve your position, strong BATNA or no BATNA - you just have to have the courage to ask for what you want.
- carmaa 13y ago
  I feel that we may be ignoring the psychological aspects of having a strong BATNA here. It's easy to say that you should just "ask for a better offer", but it is waay easier to actually do that when you know how much you are worth to another employer. Some people may be able to pull off something like what you describe, but all research I've read on negotiating indicate that knowing your BATNA and having a strong one is key to achieving good negotiation results.
  - gyardley 13y ago
    Yes, a big part of negotiation is knowing what you should do and how you should react despite your internal feelings about your situation. I know I've looked utterly disgusted at offers that were already making me giddy on the inside. It's always nice to have multiple offers to choose from, but sometimes you're just not in that situation. When that happens you can still master your own psychology, keep your feelings to yourself, and negotiate with confidence.
- run4yourlives 13y ago
  No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write their own ticket, then fair enough, you already have a BATNA and didn't even realize it - play hard ball. If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. In this situation, the negotiation is very similar to every other purchase of goods. You are the vendor and the employer is the consumer. In a land of multiple vendors, the consumer is king. I don't care how much you think your time is worth, I've already got a value in my head that I'm willing to pay for, and I'm going to do everything I can to pay less than that value and get myself a 'deal'. Suppose instead of effort hours you are selling bananas. You and about 20 other banana stands. The first thing I as a consumer do is figure out how the banana market is looking these days, and determine the average quality and average price that the vendors are offering. I'm a savvy consumer now, so I figure that in order to not waste anyone's time, I'll pre-define the quality of the banana I'm willing to purchase (let's say higher than the average, but not the gold standard banana) and publicly state my intention to buy a fixed quantity. Seeing a sale, you (along with others) contact me I take a look at your wares. I like what I see, and I know the market value, so I offer you the average price and see how things go.... Scenario A) You counter 30% higher. That's still in my price range, but I've still not seen the other banana vendors yet. I probably want to talk to them before I just give you that extra 30%. What's the rush after all? Your's isn't a bad offer, but I'm not sure it's the best... Scenario B) You don't really counter, but simply tell me that you only have 50 bananas until next quarter and there's another guy down the street that's already told you he'd give you 20% more for them. He's on the other side of town though, so you don't really want to go out there... In what scenario is the banana vendor in a stronger position to get that extra 30%? If the outcome in this situation is so influenced by said externality, how do you figure it does not equally translate into a job negotiation? A good BATNA can be an existing job, a high degree of skill, or a lot of comfort in your current situation. Regardless, having one gives you a tremendous advantage in any negotiation.

johnrob 13y ago

I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.

jtbigwoo 13y ago
Counter offers have a really low success rate in my experience. That person has already weighed the pros and cons of staying and decided to leave. It won't take much to push them to leave again. In addition, everybody else in the company now has an incentive to look for a new job themselves since they see a short cut to get a raise. Better to keep people happy by offering market-rate salaries in the first place.
praptak 13y ago
> It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they threaten to leave". Nope, counteroffers are for suckers.
- betenoire 13y ago
  What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?
  - hfsktr 13y ago
    I would assume after threatening to leave. Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money. Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far already.
    - betenoire 13y ago
      That makes sense to me, once I've decided to move on, I'm done: it's not about the money at that point. But since the article was about job offers, and so were most of the comments, I thought I may have missed something.
ajross 13y ago
Honestly I think 2) is the more common mistake. Yes, employers should be looking to offer regular raises that match what an employee "could" get on the market, but that's hard even when you have the funds available and your employees' best interests in mind. On the other hand, it's absolutely routine in my experience to watch managers bend rules and ignore feedback to bring in very expensive "senior" people to the team (often based on nothing more than a resume). All the incentives are wrong for this: everyone wants senior underlings, there's the "prestige" value in buying expensive commodities, you want to feel like your team is in the "big leagues". And if done badly it can do terrible damage to a functioning team. It's never good to bring on an unproductive employee. Unproductive architects will kill your product.
vonmoltke 13y ago
> I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. That is why they combine it with convincing their employees that they should be lucky to have their job. My former employer got a lot of mileage out of that. It was made easier because some of the people there were lucky to have a job (based on competence or specialty).

hfsktr 13y ago

I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of summed up what I had been thinking all along. It was all I could do not to shout YES right away (before I even saw the details).

broham 13y ago
Congrats! Here's hoping that you'll be happy there.
orangethirty 13y ago
I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.
- hfsktr 13y ago
  Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can prove to this new place I am worth taking a chance on. Just feels good to not have to worry that I am a failure (at least for now).
  - orangethirty 13y ago
    You will never be a failure.
  - roguecoder 13y ago
    If you do well, it's also possible to negotiate once you are already employed. You'll probably be more valuable to the company after a year, since you'll know how things work, and chances are good that your alternatives will have improved. I've always brought it up in a positive way ("I think I've been contributing significant value and would like to find a way for my compensation to reflect that"), but the managers understand the subtext ("now that I have a year's experience here, other companies are calling me at home.") Success will depend on the company, but it can work.

notahacker 13y ago

I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.

mhurron 13y ago
If they offer well below market rate, they didn't love you. An offer that much lower than what you could expect elsewhere is probably not worth negotiating with, they've already what they value you at. Obviously this means you need to do your research and have a realistic idea what your skill set is worth. Don't let ego get in the way of that research.
dmourati 13y ago
+1 for BATNA. So few people understand this core concept. http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  Great link. Here's another one, with pictures: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
Very true. I have an illustration of this here: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...

gyardley 13y ago

This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional raise on the spot; most likely, they'll ask what you'll need, you'll throw out some ludicrously high figure, and you'll split the difference somewhere in the middle. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. They're already thinking about all the work you're going to do for them, and how much longer it's going to take to find another suitable candidate. They also know that many candidates negotiate, so they likely didn't lead with their best offer. In this situation, you are extremely likely to improve your position, strong BATNA or no BATNA - you just have to have the courage to ask for what you want.

carmaa 13y ago
I feel that we may be ignoring the psychological aspects of having a strong BATNA here. It's easy to say that you should just "ask for a better offer", but it is waay easier to actually do that when you know how much you are worth to another employer. Some people may be able to pull off something like what you describe, but all research I've read on negotiating indicate that knowing your BATNA and having a strong one is key to achieving good negotiation results.
- gyardley 13y ago
  Yes, a big part of negotiation is knowing what you should do and how you should react despite your internal feelings about your situation. I know I've looked utterly disgusted at offers that were already making me giddy on the inside. It's always nice to have multiple offers to choose from, but sometimes you're just not in that situation. When that happens you can still master your own psychology, keep your feelings to yourself, and negotiate with confidence.
run4yourlives 13y ago
No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write their own ticket, then fair enough, you already have a BATNA and didn't even realize it - play hard ball. If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. In this situation, the negotiation is very similar to every other purchase of goods. You are the vendor and the employer is the consumer. In a land of multiple vendors, the consumer is king. I don't care how much you think your time is worth, I've already got a value in my head that I'm willing to pay for, and I'm going to do everything I can to pay less than that value and get myself a 'deal'. Suppose instead of effort hours you are selling bananas. You and about 20 other banana stands. The first thing I as a consumer do is figure out how the banana market is looking these days, and determine the average quality and average price that the vendors are offering. I'm a savvy consumer now, so I figure that in order to not waste anyone's time, I'll pre-define the quality of the banana I'm willing to purchase (let's say higher than the average, but not the gold standard banana) and publicly state my intention to buy a fixed quantity. Seeing a sale, you (along with others) contact me I take a look at your wares. I like what I see, and I know the market value, so I offer you the average price and see how things go.... Scenario A) You counter 30% higher. That's still in my price range, but I've still not seen the other banana vendors yet. I probably want to talk to them before I just give you that extra 30%. What's the rush after all? Your's isn't a bad offer, but I'm not sure it's the best... Scenario B) You don't really counter, but simply tell me that you only have 50 bananas until next quarter and there's another guy down the street that's already told you he'd give you 20% more for them. He's on the other side of town though, so you don't really want to go out there... In what scenario is the banana vendor in a stronger position to get that extra 30%? If the outcome in this situation is so influenced by said externality, how do you figure it does not equally translate into a job negotiation? A good BATNA can be an existing job, a high degree of skill, or a lot of comfort in your current situation. Regardless, having one gives you a tremendous advantage in any negotiation.