13 ms·

How to Negotiate a Job Offer

176 points by kellegous 13y ago

chollida1 13y ago
> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I negotiate a package with someone, I want to do 2 things: 1) make sure I compensate them fairly. I've learned that skimping on salary is penny wise and pound foolish. If an employee feels slighted by their compensation they'll start looking for a new job immediately after starting working with me. 2) make sure I'm not over paying and setting myself up for resetting my entire salary structure. Raising salaries is part of doing business, resetting salaries downwards is darn near impossible to do.
- johnrob 13y ago
  I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.
  - jtbigwoo 13y ago
    Counter offers have a really low success rate in my experience. That person has already weighed the pros and cons of staying and decided to leave. It won't take much to push them to leave again. In addition, everybody else in the company now has an incentive to look for a new job themselves since they see a short cut to get a raise. Better to keep people happy by offering market-rate salaries in the first place.
  - praptak 13y ago
    > It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they threaten to leave". Nope, counteroffers are for suckers.
    - betenoire 13y ago
      What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?
      - hfsktr 13y ago
        I would assume after threatening to leave. Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money. Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far already.
        betenoire 13y ago
        That makes sense to me, once I've decided to move on, I'm done: it's not about the money at that point. But since the article was about job offers, and so were most of the comments, I thought I may have missed something.
  - ajross 13y ago
    Honestly I think 2) is the more common mistake. Yes, employers should be looking to offer regular raises that match what an employee "could" get on the market, but that's hard even when you have the funds available and your employees' best interests in mind. On the other hand, it's absolutely routine in my experience to watch managers bend rules and ignore feedback to bring in very expensive "senior" people to the team (often based on nothing more than a resume). All the incentives are wrong for this: everyone wants senior underlings, there's the "prestige" value in buying expensive commodities, you want to feel like your team is in the "big leagues". And if done badly it can do terrible damage to a functioning team. It's never good to bring on an unproductive employee. Unproductive architects will kill your product.
  - vonmoltke 13y ago
    > I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. That is why they combine it with convincing their employees that they should be lucky to have their job. My former employer got a lot of mileage out of that. It was made easier because some of the people there were lucky to have a job (based on competence or specialty).
- hfsktr 13y ago
  I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of summed up what I had been thinking all along. It was all I could do not to shout YES right away (before I even saw the details).
  - broham 13y ago
    Congrats! Here's hoping that you'll be happy there.
  - orangethirty 13y ago
    I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.
    - hfsktr 13y ago
      Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can prove to this new place I am worth taking a chance on. Just feels good to not have to worry that I am a failure (at least for now).
      - orangethirty 13y ago
        You will never be a failure.
      - roguecoder 13y ago
        If you do well, it's also possible to negotiate once you are already employed. You'll probably be more valuable to the company after a year, since you'll know how things work, and chances are good that your alternatives will have improved. I've always brought it up in a positive way ("I think I've been contributing significant value and would like to find a way for my compensation to reflect that"), but the managers understand the subtext ("now that I have a year's experience here, other companies are calling me at home.") Success will depend on the company, but it can work.
- notahacker 13y ago
  I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.
  - mhurron 13y ago
    If they offer well below market rate, they didn't love you. An offer that much lower than what you could expect elsewhere is probably not worth negotiating with, they've already what they value you at. Obviously this means you need to do your research and have a realistic idea what your skill set is worth. Don't let ego get in the way of that research.
  - dmourati 13y ago
    +1 for BATNA. So few people understand this core concept. http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna
    - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
      Great link. Here's another one, with pictures: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
  - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
    Very true. I have an illustration of this here: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
- gyardley 13y ago
  This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional raise on the spot; most likely, they'll ask what you'll need, you'll throw out some ludicrously high figure, and you'll split the difference somewhere in the middle. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. They're already thinking about all the work you're going to do for them, and how much longer it's going to take to find another suitable candidate. They also know that many candidates negotiate, so they likely didn't lead with their best offer. In this situation, you are extremely likely to improve your position, strong BATNA or no BATNA - you just have to have the courage to ask for what you want.
  - carmaa 13y ago
    I feel that we may be ignoring the psychological aspects of having a strong BATNA here. It's easy to say that you should just "ask for a better offer", but it is waay easier to actually do that when you know how much you are worth to another employer. Some people may be able to pull off something like what you describe, but all research I've read on negotiating indicate that knowing your BATNA and having a strong one is key to achieving good negotiation results.
    - gyardley 13y ago
      Yes, a big part of negotiation is knowing what you should do and how you should react despite your internal feelings about your situation. I know I've looked utterly disgusted at offers that were already making me giddy on the inside. It's always nice to have multiple offers to choose from, but sometimes you're just not in that situation. When that happens you can still master your own psychology, keep your feelings to yourself, and negotiate with confidence.
  - run4yourlives 13y ago
    No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write their own ticket, then fair enough, you already have a BATNA and didn't even realize it - play hard ball. If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. In this situation, the negotiation is very similar to every other purchase of goods. You are the vendor and the employer is the consumer. In a land of multiple vendors, the consumer is king. I don't care how much you think your time is worth, I've already got a value in my head that I'm willing to pay for, and I'm going to do everything I can to pay less than that value and get myself a 'deal'. Suppose instead of effort hours you are selling bananas. You and about 20 other banana stands. The first thing I as a consumer do is figure out how the banana market is looking these days, and determine the average quality and average price that the vendors are offering. I'm a savvy consumer now, so I figure that in order to not waste anyone's time, I'll pre-define the quality of the banana I'm willing to purchase (let's say higher than the average, but not the gold standard banana) and publicly state my intention to buy a fixed quantity. Seeing a sale, you (along with others) contact me I take a look at your wares. I like what I see, and I know the market value, so I offer you the average price and see how things go.... Scenario A) You counter 30% higher. That's still in my price range, but I've still not seen the other banana vendors yet. I probably want to talk to them before I just give you that extra 30%. What's the rush after all? Your's isn't a bad offer, but I'm not sure it's the best... Scenario B) You don't really counter, but simply tell me that you only have 50 bananas until next quarter and there's another guy down the street that's already told you he'd give you 20% more for them. He's on the other side of town though, so you don't really want to go out there... In what scenario is the banana vendor in a stronger position to get that extra 30%? If the outcome in this situation is so influenced by said externality, how do you figure it does not equally translate into a job negotiation? A good BATNA can be an existing job, a high degree of skill, or a lot of comfort in your current situation. Regardless, having one gives you a tremendous advantage in any negotiation.
300bps 13y ago
As someone who has been in IT for over 20 years and makes multiples of the highest salary used as an example in the article, I can state that I agree with all the advice given. The post does a good job of walking the fine line between getting what you're worth and coming off like a conceited jerk. There are more advanced salary negotiating techniques and ways to get into positions to negotiate your salary but those tend to be situation specific.
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  You make >$300k salary in IT? Please share your advice.
victorhn 13y ago
I suck at this stage of the new job process, at my current job i took the first offer which was "decent" money , largely because i didn't have much options (This is like dating). My excitement about my new job and salary lasted about 3 months, from that point i feel like i am being underpaid, is it worth to try to renegotiate my salary when i have been only 3 months in a company? Otherwise how long should i wait to ask for a raise?
- johnrob 13y ago
  If you are indeed underpaid, the first thing you need to do is get better offer from another company. At that point, your current company has to match or you leave. Don't ask for more without an offer - it might work out but you risk compromising your current position without a having a backup.
  - antjanus 13y ago
    If you ask for a higher pay based on an offer from another company, you're already screwing yourself over. Your current job MAY accept your pay increase but if they do, there's already a break in trust. And you're setting yourself up for being replaced. You may as well take that new offer right now. Better option is to negotiate based on skills, experience, responsibilities, and other factors.
    - byoung2 13y ago
      You may as well take that new offer right now. That has been my strategy 4 times in the last 6 years. You can get a much bigger raise if you switch companies than if you stay and wait for a raise. If I had stayed at my first programming job, even with generous 10% raises every 12-18 months, my salary would only have increased by 50-70%. Instead, by switching jobs, I was able to get 20-35% raises each time, and now my base salary is 113% higher than it was 6 years ago.
      - netrus 13y ago
        You just have to know when to slow down. The recruiter will recognize the pattern, and might fear you will leave at the first best opportunity. I always felt that 3-4 years with each employer is the most promising strategy (European job market).
hjay 13y ago
A bit of an addition to the note on not starting a long-term relationship on the wrong foot with your future employer. I do think negotiating a job offer is very important. It doesn't benefit anyone if you are feeling undervalued/underpaid at a job. Work performance will take a hit, team dynamic will slowly shift, you will wake up every morning dreading to go to work. However, I do think there is a need to resist the urge to treat negotiation like a game. Sure you may have gotten the best offer possible for your skills/experience, but how much do you need to be satisfied and do your best work? If you get hired having massively oversold yourself and the value you bring to the team, are you sure that would be a good start for your new job? I recently negotiated a 7.4% increase on my base pay for a new job. I could have easily negotiated a 16% increase but I didn't. I want both parties to start the relationship happy. If either side feels like "did I just get cheated out of X?", that is a loss for me. Sure, any relationship may go bad, but why start a relationship if it's not going to be sweet to begin with?
- afterburner 13y ago
  Well, your employer is definitely treating it like a game.
- roguecoder 13y ago
  It's called "capitalism". By accepting lower-than-possible wages you are merely distorting the market and boosting corporate profits. The only thing being negotiated is how much of the surplus you get and how much they get. They won't hire you if you aren't going to be worth significantly more to them than they are paying you (thanks to sticky costs).
daniel-cussen 13y ago
> Leave something on the table This is super important. In business, everyone is trying to make money, and if you don't help others achieve that goal, you are a dysfunctional businessperson. And generally, leaving some value on the table translates to better relationships with people—a natural consequence of giving people what they want. An employer becomes a boss when he or she can't get you to pull your weight. You need to deliver.
jtbigwoo 13y ago
One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.
- csbowe 13y ago
  There is really no way of knowing how much those options are worth without knowing the size of the pool and valuation of the company, anyhow. I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Lots of things, namely reverse splits, before an exit can greatly affect the value of those shares!
  - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
    Right! This falls under "Run the Numbers" in the Upstart Blog Post. It is not possible to compare an offer of equity without the info you described and some thoughtful attention to how YOU value that equity.
  - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
    I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Knowing your percentage doesn't make it any less monopoly money. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5771831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5771831
- MakeUsersWant 13y ago
  Some companies fire people right before the shares vest. Then they really are worth $0.
conroe64 13y ago
Here is a quick tip, especially for those non confrontational types. When the company makes an offer, just say "Hmm.." and pause for a bit. If the person offering the job is insecure in what they are proposing, they may think you are about to decline and this may provoke them into upping the offer. If they don't up the offer, it's easy to just say yes after whatever they say next. So, you aren't really risking anything.
- roguecoder 13y ago
  I bought a car this way once. It was the last day of the selling season and the dealership was really, really close to meeting some goal. Every time I'd break eye contact and look thoughtful they'd lower the price. I have never felt so powerful in my life :)
  - ams6110 13y ago
    That's just what they wanted you to think :)
GavinB 13y ago
The "Pre-Reqs" piece is not right. You really don't need to have another job offer or a current job to negotiate. A while ago I wrote up this script for how to negotiate a job offer with no leverage at all when you intend to accept it no matter what: http://bit.ly/1185CGm http://bit.ly/1185CGm Most job offers come with leeway for negotiation, regardless of your situation. All you really have to do is ask.
- gangst 13y ago
  In your script, you have: > You: This is a really great offer because [a sentence or two about why you want to work for them.]. But I was really looking for a little higher compensation. > Then, this is the most important part: they need to speak next. You have to be silent until they respond. They will give you one of three responses: At which point you list the three responses. But the most common (in my experience) response is missing: "Okay, what were you thinking for salary?".
  - GavinB 13y ago
    I'd say name a number or range 15-25% above the offer. Or even just "I was hoping for 15-20% more." Thanks, I'll add this. The point is just to ask for what you want. Often people will give it to you just for asking. It took me a long time to figure this out!
    - carmaa 13y ago
      Never name a range. Ask for 15, 20 or 25% more, based on what you want. If someone comes to me asking for 15-20% more, I'm going to offer them something below the low end of the range. You're essentially giving away 5% for free.
      - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
        Always name a range. Bound it on the low end by your minimum. Otherwise you're essentially removing their ability to give you n% for free. In a few cases, I've seen offers come back right in the middle of the range, when I was expecting the bottom. Free money! Ideally, have 2 offers that are aware of each other and name the range. They won't both come back with the bottom number. At least, not in this market. They've wasted a ton of time and need to hire someone, so they're going to make their offer count. Internal recruiters have performance-based metrics too, and while I'm sure getting a better deal on a hire looks good, failing to fill positions is not good.
gangst 13y ago
Everything said in the post is easy to conclude if you learn a little bit about negotiation and understand some more niche things like how to valuate shares of a company.
halacsy 13y ago
i think article is just wrong as it is. Maybe because I'm on the other side hiring engineers. But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. The first part is very personal. People having mortgage and two kids just overvalue themselves. Immigrants in US (and I guess everywhere) just don't need as much money as they don't see the neighbour's grass.
- mc-lovin 13y ago
  Most companies are willing to negotiate, especially when you have a counter-offer. So in general, it is good advice. Most companies do not have the attitude of "I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company" because they know that most people value some combination of enjoying their work, and how much they get paid, not just one or the other. >The first part is very personal. People having mortgage and two kids just overvalue themselves. Immigrants in US (and I guess everywhere) just don't need as much money as they don't see the neighbour's grass. Can you explain what you are saying here? Are you saying that only immigrants are willing to take the offers you make, or that you make higher offers to people who overvalue themselves?
  - halacsy 13y ago
    sorry for the noise. I was wrong. I can't make the case.
- vidarh 13y ago
  I've never come across an offer that couldn't be negotiated, and I never would take the first offer. That includes offers from companies that "don't negotiate". I'd walk rather than accepting an offer that truly can't be negotiated, because if the company is so inflexible that they can't even yield a tiny little bit, then that's a huge red flag to me.
- pnathan 13y ago
  > But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. Ahahaha, oh brother. You need to care about how much I'd make at another company, because if you dramatically underpay me, I'm walking. I'm ok with fuzzy variance - a few K/yr isn't making or breaking me. But if you short me and give me <90% market average, I'm job hunting. I don't care about how much I like the job - you simply are not valuing me as much as other companies do, and that's unacceptable in my eyes. Unwillingness to negotiate is a red flag: it signals you can't work with me, are inflexible, and are not interested in accommodating me if something comes up. So no. Negotiate with me and offer at least 90% of market value. Or I will walk - either I'll join and quit as soon as I get another job, or I'll keep searching. Neither are good outcomes for you.
lumens 13y ago
There is definitely good advice here, but a word of caution: Don't miss the forest for the trees. I've spent a lot of time helping people negotiate job offers. The predominant theme is that offers will vary a bit, and some negotiation may be necessary, but the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. For most of the software devs reading this article, we're talking about a couple of percent of your overall compensation -- an amount that, given the demand of developers in the market today, will end up being taken into account during your first performance review anyway. If you’re good, your employer will want to keep you around and compensate you accordingly. During negotiations your main priority should be getting the job that’s the best fit. If it really is the best fit, the company will be presenting you a fair offer. It may not be on the top end of normal, but optimizing for price is bad practice when negotiating salary (much like VC term sheets). Truly enjoying your time at work and being fully engaged and happy with your job is worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I’m not suggesting that you accept below market offers. Instead, I’m trying to illustrate that how much you will enjoy each hour of the day is part of the offer, though it’s not written on the document a prospective employer presents you. Full disclosure: I’m the founder of Mighty Spring (https://www.mightyspring.com https://www.mightyspring.com) and our aim is to help people find great fitting opportunities quickly and easily, while making these salary negotiations much simpler in the process.
- ISL 13y ago
  ... the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. Perhaps in relative terms? After living on a grad student's salary for years, it's clear that even a thousand dollars can be rather powerful.
  - lumens 13y ago
    Definitely relative -- this is a reference to 'most software devs reading this article'. That being said, once you reach a compensation level that lets you cover your expenses, it's wise to start thinking in these terms, even when the relative percentages rise. Happier workers tend to perform better, which in turn make meritocratic performance bonuses greater, raising the overall compensation of those workers. Enjoyment of one's job and compensation are tied much more closely than some people realize.
pan69 13y ago
The article mentions a signing bonus. Does anyone have an idea on how common this this and in what type of situation asking for a signing bonus is appropriate and what some of the common numbers are in these cases?
- lumens 13y ago
  Signing bonuses are fairly common. It's not a number that is well-arrived at by picking at random. The figure should be based on a calculated value exchange: ie,"I'm not fully vested at my current company, and will be giving up $5k worth of stock options if I leave. I'd like to have a $5k cash signing bonus as part of any new offer I'd take to offset that."
  - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
    Well said. It's all about finding some "reason" to have a bonus -- something given up to take the position. Like someone said above, it doesn't have to be a great reason. Just a reason.
    - Maert 13y ago
      How common is this in Europe? For example, is relocating to another country something that might be a good reason for asking a signing bonus? How do companies see this? Note I'm interested in experiences from Europe, I think that there's lots of hiring "cultural" differences between the continents...
- lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  I don't think they are exactly common, but they are not rare. I tend to see them at bigger companies.
Xcelerate 13y ago
So, as a new employee out of college, if someone offers 100K, and you reply with "130K and we have a deal" are you going to be 1) laughed at and rejected 2) rejected 3) considered? I've always been one to just accept whatever -- "Yeah, that sounds good!" -- but I'm consciously preparing myself to avoid this tendency after I finish grad school.
- fossuser 13y ago
  I would state it a bit more eloquently and you'll probably get 110-115k. The decision to hire is expensive, if they've already made an offer there is usually some room for negotiation either through salary or something else depending on the company (equity, time, travel). If you were offered 100k and said that you'd love to work at the company, but would be much more comfortable at 120k they'll probably move a little bit just to close you. Worst case is they'll get back to you and say that they're not able to move from their original offer in which case you can accept without worrying about it.
- SatvikBeri 13y ago
  You will probably get a bit more. The worst case is pretty much that they respond "take it or leave it". You will almost never get rejected for negotiating-the company has invested a lot in getting to the point where they made the offer, and would really like to close. (Of course, saying "130k and we have a deal" is a pretty terrible way to negotiate. See patio11's blog at kalzumeus.com or Ramit Sethi's book for a substantially better approach to negotiating compensation.)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- vidarh 13y ago
  You will almost certainly be considered. I've negotiated my offers up anything from 20% to 50%, which means usually my first counter-offer was higher than that. I'd never just say yes. By the time someone has made the decision to make you an offer, they have invested time in you, and will be psychologically invested in their decision - nobody likes "losing out", and so they will look for reasons to meet you. As long as your counter-offer is not ridiculous (and tacking on 30% is not), they will negotiate. Just don't across as making hard demands, and give reasons even if they're total nonsense. People yield more easily if you give them an excuse to. The irony is that people also tend to feel they made a better deal if they have to fight for it, even if they end up giving a lot.
bengrunfeld 13y ago
My method is to do a full analysis of their company, and then make a very nicely formatted doc listing everything that I thought was bad, and a full explanation of how I would improve it if I were hired there. Essentially, by using this technique, you've created a job for yourself, and given yourself value before you've even started there. Then, when it comes to salary negotiation, you choose the highest available figure of their range and say with enormous balls that you're worth it because of all the things you can do for them - re your doc. Works a charm for me every time.
- rubberband 13y ago
  I think this is an interesting idea, but wouldn't it come off a bit preachy? Like "I haven't even worked for your company one day and I already know a better strategic direction to take it. Your management is useless. Hire me." Maybe I don't have a good enough imagination on what to analyze, though.
  - bengrunfeld 13y ago
    Since I am in marketing and web development, I go through all of their online assets and their front-end code/design. So far, this technique has gotten me 3 good paying jobs, because I'm not trying to please them in the interview, I'm trying to show them how I can help them become a more successful company. Plus you win the high ground. You just have to do it in a constructive and respectful way.
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  This seems very sassy. But if you can pull it off ...
  - bengrunfeld 13y ago
    You have to do it respectfully, but why hire someone who can't prove their worth. And it would have been funnier if you'd written "SaaSy" ;)
StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
This is very helpful. I've been impressed with my Stock Option Counsel clients' thoughtfulness in the "Run the Numbers" step. This is not easy with private company equity offers, but there is a right answer for each person if they put some thought into it.
pmorici 13y ago
Salary negotiation really dampens my enthusiasm for potential employers. Maybe it's just the game and I'm being unreasonable but getting a low ball offer makes me question what kind of place a company would be to work at.
dsr_ 13y ago
So... is that photo of Tom Cruise licensed properly?
ams6110 13y ago
One thing to keep in mind, specifically about positions in academic institutions, but perhaps others: you have to get what you can get on your way in. Once hired, you will not get more than cost-of-living raises (if that) with perhaps a percent or two leeway for performance. The only way to get a real raise in these organizations is to get promoted to a new position, which is why they are constantly doing internal reorgs and creating new titles and reporting lines for the same bunch of people.
hippich 13y ago
on contraire, i would recommend always negotiate price you want and not settle if "you are going to work for this company anyway". Reason is simple - every year what you earn gives you 3% less purchasing power on average. If you are not getting at least the same increase in income - you are losing. Unfortunately, not all companies consider annual salary increases and ones which do - do it on their own discretion. So you have to have something in back pocket when it is time to leave this job and look for new opportunity and use you current wage as a leverage to get more. As such, you should make sure you are compensated fairly. It is just like bonus vs. early salary increase. Higher base salary means higher base salary for the next job (and for current one higher bonus, higher annual increase, etc). Do not settle for bonuses/stocks/"unlimited" vacation and any other similar tricks.

176 points by kellegous 13y ago

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I negotiate a package with someone, I want to do 2 things: 1) make sure I compensate them fairly. I've learned that skimping on salary is penny wise and pound foolish. If an employee feels slighted by their compensation they'll start looking for a new job immediately after starting working with me. 2) make sure I'm not over paying and setting myself up for resetting my entire salary structure. Raising salaries is part of doing business, resetting salaries downwards is darn near impossible to do.

johnrob 13y ago
I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.
- jtbigwoo 13y ago
  Counter offers have a really low success rate in my experience. That person has already weighed the pros and cons of staying and decided to leave. It won't take much to push them to leave again. In addition, everybody else in the company now has an incentive to look for a new job themselves since they see a short cut to get a raise. Better to keep people happy by offering market-rate salaries in the first place.
- praptak 13y ago
  > It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they threaten to leave". Nope, counteroffers are for suckers.
  - betenoire 13y ago
    What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?
    - hfsktr 13y ago
      I would assume after threatening to leave. Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843 From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money. Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far already.
      - betenoire 13y ago
        That makes sense to me, once I've decided to move on, I'm done: it's not about the money at that point. But since the article was about job offers, and so were most of the comments, I thought I may have missed something.
- ajross 13y ago
  Honestly I think 2) is the more common mistake. Yes, employers should be looking to offer regular raises that match what an employee "could" get on the market, but that's hard even when you have the funds available and your employees' best interests in mind. On the other hand, it's absolutely routine in my experience to watch managers bend rules and ignore feedback to bring in very expensive "senior" people to the team (often based on nothing more than a resume). All the incentives are wrong for this: everyone wants senior underlings, there's the "prestige" value in buying expensive commodities, you want to feel like your team is in the "big leagues". And if done badly it can do terrible damage to a functioning team. It's never good to bring on an unproductive employee. Unproductive architects will kill your product.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  > I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. That is why they combine it with convincing their employees that they should be lucky to have their job. My former employer got a lot of mileage out of that. It was made easier because some of the people there were lucky to have a job (based on competence or specialty).
hfsktr 13y ago
I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of summed up what I had been thinking all along. It was all I could do not to shout YES right away (before I even saw the details).
- broham 13y ago
  Congrats! Here's hoping that you'll be happy there.
- orangethirty 13y ago
  I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.
  - hfsktr 13y ago
    Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad. My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call). I hope that I can prove to this new place I am worth taking a chance on. Just feels good to not have to worry that I am a failure (at least for now).
    - orangethirty 13y ago
      You will never be a failure.
    - roguecoder 13y ago
      If you do well, it's also possible to negotiate once you are already employed. You'll probably be more valuable to the company after a year, since you'll know how things work, and chances are good that your alternatives will have improved. I've always brought it up in a positive way ("I think I've been contributing significant value and would like to find a way for my compensation to reflect that"), but the managers understand the subtext ("now that I have a year's experience here, other companies are calling me at home.") Success will depend on the company, but it can work.
notahacker 13y ago
I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.
- mhurron 13y ago
  If they offer well below market rate, they didn't love you. An offer that much lower than what you could expect elsewhere is probably not worth negotiating with, they've already what they value you at. Obviously this means you need to do your research and have a realistic idea what your skill set is worth. Don't let ego get in the way of that research.
- dmourati 13y ago
  +1 for BATNA. So few people understand this core concept. http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna http://www.beyondintractability.org/bi-essay/batna
  - StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
    Great link. Here's another one, with pictures: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  Very true. I have an illustration of this here: http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/2012/12/30 http://stockoptioncounsel.com/blog/negotiation-rhythms-2/201...
gyardley 13y ago
This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. It's not true at all. No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. When you get their offer, flinch, flare your nostrils, make an 'oof' noise on the phone - whatever, do what you need to do to convey you're not impressed. Then say "you'll need to do better than that," and shut up until they say something. Often you'll get an additional raise on the spot; most likely, they'll ask what you'll need, you'll throw out some ludicrously high figure, and you'll split the difference somewhere in the middle. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. They're already thinking about all the work you're going to do for them, and how much longer it's going to take to find another suitable candidate. They also know that many candidates negotiate, so they likely didn't lead with their best offer. In this situation, you are extremely likely to improve your position, strong BATNA or no BATNA - you just have to have the courage to ask for what you want.
- carmaa 13y ago
  I feel that we may be ignoring the psychological aspects of having a strong BATNA here. It's easy to say that you should just "ask for a better offer", but it is waay easier to actually do that when you know how much you are worth to another employer. Some people may be able to pull off something like what you describe, but all research I've read on negotiating indicate that knowing your BATNA and having a strong one is key to achieving good negotiation results.
  - gyardley 13y ago
    Yes, a big part of negotiation is knowing what you should do and how you should react despite your internal feelings about your situation. I know I've looked utterly disgusted at offers that were already making me giddy on the inside. It's always nice to have multiple offers to choose from, but sometimes you're just not in that situation. When that happens you can still master your own psychology, keep your feelings to yourself, and negotiate with confidence.
- run4yourlives 13y ago
  No other offer? Unemployed for a year? It doesn't matter. Oh, but it most certainly does. It may not affect how you negotiate, but it will certainly affect overall outcome. By the time a company makes you an offer, they're emotionally invested. With the exception of rare cases and poaching, no, they are not. This is not reflective of 99% of job offers. If you have built up a reputation as a superstar that can write their own ticket, then fair enough, you already have a BATNA and didn't even realize it - play hard ball. If however, you are like a vast majority of job applicants, you are really nobody special. Some talent maybe, but not enough to make me drool. In this situation, the negotiation is very similar to every other purchase of goods. You are the vendor and the employer is the consumer. In a land of multiple vendors, the consumer is king. I don't care how much you think your time is worth, I've already got a value in my head that I'm willing to pay for, and I'm going to do everything I can to pay less than that value and get myself a 'deal'. Suppose instead of effort hours you are selling bananas. You and about 20 other banana stands. The first thing I as a consumer do is figure out how the banana market is looking these days, and determine the average quality and average price that the vendors are offering. I'm a savvy consumer now, so I figure that in order to not waste anyone's time, I'll pre-define the quality of the banana I'm willing to purchase (let's say higher than the average, but not the gold standard banana) and publicly state my intention to buy a fixed quantity. Seeing a sale, you (along with others) contact me I take a look at your wares. I like what I see, and I know the market value, so I offer you the average price and see how things go.... Scenario A) You counter 30% higher. That's still in my price range, but I've still not seen the other banana vendors yet. I probably want to talk to them before I just give you that extra 30%. What's the rush after all? Your's isn't a bad offer, but I'm not sure it's the best... Scenario B) You don't really counter, but simply tell me that you only have 50 bananas until next quarter and there's another guy down the street that's already told you he'd give you 20% more for them. He's on the other side of town though, so you don't really want to go out there... In what scenario is the banana vendor in a stronger position to get that extra 30%? If the outcome in this situation is so influenced by said externality, how do you figure it does not equally translate into a job negotiation? A good BATNA can be an existing job, a high degree of skill, or a lot of comfort in your current situation. Regardless, having one gives you a tremendous advantage in any negotiation.

300bps 13y ago

As someone who has been in IT for over 20 years and makes multiples of the highest salary used as an example in the article, I can state that I agree with all the advice given. The post does a good job of walking the fine line between getting what you're worth and coming off like a conceited jerk. There are more advanced salary negotiating techniques and ways to get into positions to negotiate your salary but those tend to be situation specific.

lawnchair_larry 13y ago
You make >$300k salary in IT? Please share your advice.

victorhn 13y ago

I suck at this stage of the new job process, at my current job i took the first offer which was "decent" money , largely because i didn't have much options (This is like dating). My excitement about my new job and salary lasted about 3 months, from that point i feel like i am being underpaid, is it worth to try to renegotiate my salary when i have been only 3 months in a company? Otherwise how long should i wait to ask for a raise?

johnrob 13y ago
If you are indeed underpaid, the first thing you need to do is get better offer from another company. At that point, your current company has to match or you leave. Don't ask for more without an offer - it might work out but you risk compromising your current position without a having a backup.
- antjanus 13y ago
  If you ask for a higher pay based on an offer from another company, you're already screwing yourself over. Your current job MAY accept your pay increase but if they do, there's already a break in trust. And you're setting yourself up for being replaced. You may as well take that new offer right now. Better option is to negotiate based on skills, experience, responsibilities, and other factors.
  - byoung2 13y ago
    You may as well take that new offer right now. That has been my strategy 4 times in the last 6 years. You can get a much bigger raise if you switch companies than if you stay and wait for a raise. If I had stayed at my first programming job, even with generous 10% raises every 12-18 months, my salary would only have increased by 50-70%. Instead, by switching jobs, I was able to get 20-35% raises each time, and now my base salary is 113% higher than it was 6 years ago.
    - netrus 13y ago
      You just have to know when to slow down. The recruiter will recognize the pattern, and might fear you will leave at the first best opportunity. I always felt that 3-4 years with each employer is the most promising strategy (European job market).

hjay 13y ago

A bit of an addition to the note on not starting a long-term relationship on the wrong foot with your future employer. I do think negotiating a job offer is very important. It doesn't benefit anyone if you are feeling undervalued/underpaid at a job. Work performance will take a hit, team dynamic will slowly shift, you will wake up every morning dreading to go to work. However, I do think there is a need to resist the urge to treat negotiation like a game. Sure you may have gotten the best offer possible for your skills/experience, but how much do you need to be satisfied and do your best work? If you get hired having massively oversold yourself and the value you bring to the team, are you sure that would be a good start for your new job? I recently negotiated a 7.4% increase on my base pay for a new job. I could have easily negotiated a 16% increase but I didn't. I want both parties to start the relationship happy. If either side feels like "did I just get cheated out of X?", that is a loss for me. Sure, any relationship may go bad, but why start a relationship if it's not going to be sweet to begin with?

afterburner 13y ago
Well, your employer is definitely treating it like a game.
roguecoder 13y ago
It's called "capitalism". By accepting lower-than-possible wages you are merely distorting the market and boosting corporate profits. The only thing being negotiated is how much of the surplus you get and how much they get. They won't hire you if you aren't going to be worth significantly more to them than they are paying you (thanks to sticky costs).

daniel-cussen 13y ago

> Leave something on the table This is super important. In business, everyone is trying to make money, and if you don't help others achieve that goal, you are a dysfunctional businessperson. And generally, leaving some value on the table translates to better relationships with people—a natural consequence of giving people what they want. An employer becomes a boss when he or she can't get you to pull your weight. You need to deliver.

jtbigwoo 13y ago

One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.

csbowe 13y ago
There is really no way of knowing how much those options are worth without knowing the size of the pool and valuation of the company, anyhow. I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Lots of things, namely reverse splits, before an exit can greatly affect the value of those shares!
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  Right! This falls under "Run the Numbers" in the Upstart Blog Post. It is not possible to compare an offer of equity without the info you described and some thoughtful attention to how YOU value that equity.
- aaronbrethorst 13y ago
  I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Knowing your percentage doesn't make it any less monopoly money. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5771831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5771831
MakeUsersWant 13y ago
Some companies fire people right before the shares vest. Then they really are worth $0.

conroe64 13y ago

Here is a quick tip, especially for those non confrontational types. When the company makes an offer, just say "Hmm.." and pause for a bit. If the person offering the job is insecure in what they are proposing, they may think you are about to decline and this may provoke them into upping the offer. If they don't up the offer, it's easy to just say yes after whatever they say next. So, you aren't really risking anything.

roguecoder 13y ago
I bought a car this way once. It was the last day of the selling season and the dealership was really, really close to meeting some goal. Every time I'd break eye contact and look thoughtful they'd lower the price. I have never felt so powerful in my life :)
- ams6110 13y ago
  That's just what they wanted you to think :)

GavinB 13y ago

The "Pre-Reqs" piece is not right. You really don't need to have another job offer or a current job to negotiate. A while ago I wrote up this script for how to negotiate a job offer with no leverage at all when you intend to accept it no matter what: http://bit.ly/1185CGm http://bit.ly/1185CGm Most job offers come with leeway for negotiation, regardless of your situation. All you really have to do is ask.

gangst 13y ago
In your script, you have: > You: This is a really great offer because [a sentence or two about why you want to work for them.]. But I was really looking for a little higher compensation. > Then, this is the most important part: they need to speak next. You have to be silent until they respond. They will give you one of three responses: At which point you list the three responses. But the most common (in my experience) response is missing: "Okay, what were you thinking for salary?".
- GavinB 13y ago
  I'd say name a number or range 15-25% above the offer. Or even just "I was hoping for 15-20% more." Thanks, I'll add this. The point is just to ask for what you want. Often people will give it to you just for asking. It took me a long time to figure this out!
  - carmaa 13y ago
    Never name a range. Ask for 15, 20 or 25% more, based on what you want. If someone comes to me asking for 15-20% more, I'm going to offer them something below the low end of the range. You're essentially giving away 5% for free.
    - lawnchair_larry 13y ago
      Always name a range. Bound it on the low end by your minimum. Otherwise you're essentially removing their ability to give you n% for free. In a few cases, I've seen offers come back right in the middle of the range, when I was expecting the bottom. Free money! Ideally, have 2 offers that are aware of each other and name the range. They won't both come back with the bottom number. At least, not in this market. They've wasted a ton of time and need to hire someone, so they're going to make their offer count. Internal recruiters have performance-based metrics too, and while I'm sure getting a better deal on a hire looks good, failing to fill positions is not good.

gangst 13y ago

Everything said in the post is easy to conclude if you learn a little bit about negotiation and understand some more niche things like how to valuate shares of a company.

halacsy 13y ago

i think article is just wrong as it is. Maybe because I'm on the other side hiring engineers. But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. The first part is very personal. People having mortgage and two kids just overvalue themselves. Immigrants in US (and I guess everywhere) just don't need as much money as they don't see the neighbour's grass.

mc-lovin 13y ago
Most companies are willing to negotiate, especially when you have a counter-offer. So in general, it is good advice. Most companies do not have the attitude of "I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company" because they know that most people value some combination of enjoying their work, and how much they get paid, not just one or the other. >The first part is very personal. People having mortgage and two kids just overvalue themselves. Immigrants in US (and I guess everywhere) just don't need as much money as they don't see the neighbour's grass. Can you explain what you are saying here? Are you saying that only immigrants are willing to take the offers you make, or that you make higher offers to people who overvalue themselves?
- halacsy 13y ago
  sorry for the noise. I was wrong. I can't make the case.
vidarh 13y ago
I've never come across an offer that couldn't be negotiated, and I never would take the first offer. That includes offers from companies that "don't negotiate". I'd walk rather than accepting an offer that truly can't be negotiated, because if the company is so inflexible that they can't even yield a tiny little bit, then that's a huge red flag to me.
pnathan 13y ago
> But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. Ahahaha, oh brother. You need to care about how much I'd make at another company, because if you dramatically underpay me, I'm walking. I'm ok with fuzzy variance - a few K/yr isn't making or breaking me. But if you short me and give me <90% market average, I'm job hunting. I don't care about how much I like the job - you simply are not valuing me as much as other companies do, and that's unacceptable in my eyes. Unwillingness to negotiate is a red flag: it signals you can't work with me, are inflexible, and are not interested in accommodating me if something comes up. So no. Negotiate with me and offer at least 90% of market value. Or I will walk - either I'll join and quit as soon as I get another job, or I'll keep searching. Neither are good outcomes for you.

lumens 13y ago

There is definitely good advice here, but a word of caution: Don't miss the forest for the trees. I've spent a lot of time helping people negotiate job offers. The predominant theme is that offers will vary a bit, and some negotiation may be necessary, but the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. For most of the software devs reading this article, we're talking about a couple of percent of your overall compensation -- an amount that, given the demand of developers in the market today, will end up being taken into account during your first performance review anyway. If you’re good, your employer will want to keep you around and compensate you accordingly. During negotiations your main priority should be getting the job that’s the best fit. If it really is the best fit, the company will be presenting you a fair offer. It may not be on the top end of normal, but optimizing for price is bad practice when negotiating salary (much like VC term sheets). Truly enjoying your time at work and being fully engaged and happy with your job is worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I’m not suggesting that you accept below market offers. Instead, I’m trying to illustrate that how much you will enjoy each hour of the day is part of the offer, though it’s not written on the document a prospective employer presents you. Full disclosure: I’m the founder of Mighty Spring (https://www.mightyspring.com https://www.mightyspring.com) and our aim is to help people find great fitting opportunities quickly and easily, while making these salary negotiations much simpler in the process.

ISL 13y ago
... the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless. Perhaps in relative terms? After living on a grad student's salary for years, it's clear that even a thousand dollars can be rather powerful.
- lumens 13y ago
  Definitely relative -- this is a reference to 'most software devs reading this article'. That being said, once you reach a compensation level that lets you cover your expenses, it's wise to start thinking in these terms, even when the relative percentages rise. Happier workers tend to perform better, which in turn make meritocratic performance bonuses greater, raising the overall compensation of those workers. Enjoyment of one's job and compensation are tied much more closely than some people realize.

pan69 13y ago

The article mentions a signing bonus. Does anyone have an idea on how common this this and in what type of situation asking for a signing bonus is appropriate and what some of the common numbers are in these cases?

lumens 13y ago
Signing bonuses are fairly common. It's not a number that is well-arrived at by picking at random. The figure should be based on a calculated value exchange: ie,"I'm not fully vested at my current company, and will be giving up $5k worth of stock options if I leave. I'd like to have a $5k cash signing bonus as part of any new offer I'd take to offset that."
- StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
  Well said. It's all about finding some "reason" to have a bonus -- something given up to take the position. Like someone said above, it doesn't have to be a great reason. Just a reason.
  - Maert 13y ago
    How common is this in Europe? For example, is relocating to another country something that might be a good reason for asking a signing bonus? How do companies see this? Note I'm interested in experiences from Europe, I think that there's lots of hiring "cultural" differences between the continents...
lawnchair_larry 13y ago
I don't think they are exactly common, but they are not rare. I tend to see them at bigger companies.

Xcelerate 13y ago

So, as a new employee out of college, if someone offers 100K, and you reply with "130K and we have a deal" are you going to be 1) laughed at and rejected 2) rejected 3) considered? I've always been one to just accept whatever -- "Yeah, that sounds good!" -- but I'm consciously preparing myself to avoid this tendency after I finish grad school.

fossuser 13y ago
I would state it a bit more eloquently and you'll probably get 110-115k. The decision to hire is expensive, if they've already made an offer there is usually some room for negotiation either through salary or something else depending on the company (equity, time, travel). If you were offered 100k and said that you'd love to work at the company, but would be much more comfortable at 120k they'll probably move a little bit just to close you. Worst case is they'll get back to you and say that they're not able to move from their original offer in which case you can accept without worrying about it.
SatvikBeri 13y ago
You will probably get a bit more. The worst case is pretty much that they respond "take it or leave it". You will almost never get rejected for negotiating-the company has invested a lot in getting to the point where they made the offer, and would really like to close. (Of course, saying "130k and we have a deal" is a pretty terrible way to negotiate. See patio11's blog at kalzumeus.com or Ramit Sethi's book for a substantially better approach to negotiating compensation.)
deleted 13y ago
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vidarh 13y ago
You will almost certainly be considered. I've negotiated my offers up anything from 20% to 50%, which means usually my first counter-offer was higher than that. I'd never just say yes. By the time someone has made the decision to make you an offer, they have invested time in you, and will be psychologically invested in their decision - nobody likes "losing out", and so they will look for reasons to meet you. As long as your counter-offer is not ridiculous (and tacking on 30% is not), they will negotiate. Just don't across as making hard demands, and give reasons even if they're total nonsense. People yield more easily if you give them an excuse to. The irony is that people also tend to feel they made a better deal if they have to fight for it, even if they end up giving a lot.

bengrunfeld 13y ago

My method is to do a full analysis of their company, and then make a very nicely formatted doc listing everything that I thought was bad, and a full explanation of how I would improve it if I were hired there. Essentially, by using this technique, you've created a job for yourself, and given yourself value before you've even started there. Then, when it comes to salary negotiation, you choose the highest available figure of their range and say with enormous balls that you're worth it because of all the things you can do for them - re your doc. Works a charm for me every time.

rubberband 13y ago
I think this is an interesting idea, but wouldn't it come off a bit preachy? Like "I haven't even worked for your company one day and I already know a better strategic direction to take it. Your management is useless. Hire me." Maybe I don't have a good enough imagination on what to analyze, though.
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  Since I am in marketing and web development, I go through all of their online assets and their front-end code/design. So far, this technique has gotten me 3 good paying jobs, because I'm not trying to please them in the interview, I'm trying to show them how I can help them become a more successful company. Plus you win the high ground. You just have to do it in a constructive and respectful way.
StockOptionCnsl 13y ago
This seems very sassy. But if you can pull it off ...
- bengrunfeld 13y ago
  You have to do it respectfully, but why hire someone who can't prove their worth. And it would have been funnier if you'd written "SaaSy" ;)

StockOptionCnsl 13y ago

This is very helpful. I've been impressed with my Stock Option Counsel clients' thoughtfulness in the "Run the Numbers" step. This is not easy with private company equity offers, but there is a right answer for each person if they put some thought into it.

pmorici 13y ago

Salary negotiation really dampens my enthusiasm for potential employers. Maybe it's just the game and I'm being unreasonable but getting a low ball offer makes me question what kind of place a company would be to work at.

dsr_ 13y ago

So... is that photo of Tom Cruise licensed properly?

ams6110 13y ago

One thing to keep in mind, specifically about positions in academic institutions, but perhaps others: you have to get what you can get on your way in. Once hired, you will not get more than cost-of-living raises (if that) with perhaps a percent or two leeway for performance. The only way to get a real raise in these organizations is to get promoted to a new position, which is why they are constantly doing internal reorgs and creating new titles and reporting lines for the same bunch of people.

hippich 13y ago

on contraire, i would recommend always negotiate price you want and not settle if "you are going to work for this company anyway". Reason is simple - every year what you earn gives you 3% less purchasing power on average. If you are not getting at least the same increase in income - you are losing. Unfortunately, not all companies consider annual salary increases and ones which do - do it on their own discretion. So you have to have something in back pocket when it is time to leave this job and look for new opportunity and use you current wage as a leverage to get more. As such, you should make sure you are compensated fairly. It is just like bonus vs. early salary increase. Higher base salary means higher base salary for the next job (and for current one higher bonus, higher annual increase, etc). Do not settle for bonuses/stocks/"unlimited" vacation and any other similar tricks.