9 ms·

I can't say enough good things about Mozilla and their values. After becoming disillusioned with Apple over the last five years, Mozilla feels like one of the l

by lukifer 13y ago

I can't say enough good things about Mozilla and their values. After becoming disillusioned with Apple over the last five years, Mozilla feels like one of the last remaining forces attempting to stave off a computing world of digital fiefdoms (in addition to Automattic and Canonical).

stephenr 13y ago
You lost me when you listed automattic and canonical in a positive, non-douchebag light
- derefr 13y ago
  The nice thing about open-source: Canonical's self-interested advancements of Ubuntu have made the OS quite a bit better. By "the OS", I am referring, of course, to Debian. :) I think (perhaps-douchebaggy) self-interest is perfectly fine when it has positive externalities in the world. You're free to avoid the drama of the Ubuntu project itself, while continuing to reap the rewards on the rest of the ecosystem from its existence.
  - mikegioia 13y ago
    Seriously, people often forget there's Debian underneath Ubuntu. Any advancements towards Debian, by Canonical or anyone else, are a great thing.
    - stephenr 13y ago
      Only if those "advancements" make it back into Debian.
      - bpodgursky 13y ago
        Why? It's great either way. If improvements to Ubuntu help get people into linux, and they choose to stay on Ubuntu rather than move to Debian, how is that not a win?
        stephenr 13y ago
        A win for who? My name is not RMS, I do not eat my own toe jam and have a superiority complex that compels me to dictate to others what they should do. I couldn't care less if someone else uses Linux. I care about Debian being a stable and secure OS for the servers I manage.
      - cpeterso 13y ago
        Are Canonical's code changes not open source? Backporting those changes is not necessarily their responsibility.
      - pekk 13y ago
        What is Debian missing and why is it Ubuntu's fault that it isn't in Debian?
  - shmerl 13y ago
    I'm not sure if Ubuntu made Debian much better than it is. Sure, there are some contributions, but they usually go other way around - Debian benefits Ubuntu. Especially with latest developments of Ubuntu moving away from the rest of the Linux world (Mir, Unity and etc.). I.e. all the Ubuntu specific things aren't benefiting the rest, only Ubuntu. A related joke: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/108/8/0/i_can__t_configure_debian_by_carnine9-d4wkixt.png http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/108/8/0/i_can__t_conf...
    - bad_user 13y ago
      Decisions like supporting and moving to Mir, Unity, etc... have been technical. You can't say they are douche-bags because of that. And on Ubuntu moving away from the rest of the Linux world, do you know what's the most popular OS that uses a Linux kernel and that will probably be the most popular OS period? It's Android. And besides the backing of Google, which definitely helped its popularity, given that other big companies tried variations of Linux on phones, you've got to wonder, aren't there technical reasons too for Android's popularity? And of course there are. Android maintains binary backwards compatibility. And Android simply skipped on all the X.org / GTK+ / Gnome / Qt / KDE cluster fuck. People complain about Android fragmentation, however compared to Linux on desktops, development for Android feels like you're in heaven.
- Fice 13y ago
  I would rather list Red Hat than Canonical.
  - u2328 13y ago
    I'm glad somebody brought up Red Hat. I can't believe Canonical is mentioned in a similar context as Mozilla and Red Hat is forgotten. If we were talking about Google or Amazon, however...
- jimbosis 13y ago
  Can you be more specific as to your grievances, especially with Automattic?
  - dkuntz2 13y ago
    I'm mostly peeved with the whole theme licensing issue that's popped up recently. Mostly the idea that if you don't do things their way, you're doing it wrong (and can be banned from speaking at a WordCamp).
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - stephenr 13y ago
    My problem with Automattic is Wordpress.
PommeDeTerre 13y ago
Values listed on a web page are one thing. Actions are another. I haven't been impressed with their actions over the past few years. Just look at Firefox. Instead of striving to provide a lean, practical, extensible browser, all they've managed to do is copy Chrome as of late. The UI changes have not been for the better. The release schedule changes were very painful, and the version number inflation is pointless. While its performance and memory usage is marginally better these days, it has still been years without any significant improvement. It's not surprising that users are moving away from it to other browsers. Then there's Thunderbird. Aside from Firefox, this was one of their only other pieces of useful software. Yet they've dropped their support for it to a minimal level. What's worse, while neglecting their software that people actually use on a daily basis, they've embarked on pointless efforts like FirefoxOS and Persona. We don't need another mobile OS, especially one that's essentially crippled to only supporting development using HTML5, JavaScript and CSS (which, of course, are already available on Android and iOS, not to mention the other mobile OSes that are already widely available). Persona is clearly not gaining any traction. The only encouraging thing out of them has been Rust. But even that seems to be rather loosely associated with them, and appears to be regarded as quite experimental. I know, I know. I'm not paying for their software, so they don't have any obligation to me, etc., etc.. I'm merely not convinced that their actions really correspond to the principles in their manifesto very well.
- emilsedgh 13y ago
  Mozilla's value and goal is pushing for open web. Not creating the best browser. Creating a kickass browser was the way the reached their goal. We do need another mobile OS because current ones do not respect our freedom. Even if they are technically sufficient, user friendly and usable. So I dont care if Mozilla is copying Chrome or not. I just wish they stay in the same path AND be strong and influencial as they currently are.
  - PommeDeTerre 13y ago
    Like I said earlier, it's pretty clear that the path they're following now is diminishing their influence. This page lists a variety of measures of browser usage share: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers Notice that over the past several years, in each data set, that Firefox's usage has dropped off, or at best not grown. People are leaving Firefox because it's not improving, and because it is actually getting worse in many ways for many people. If we're going to get the Chrome experience even when using Firefox, but done in an inferior fashion, we may as well just use Chrome. I expect we'd see a similar, if not more severe, drop off in Thunderbird's usage numbers. I've personally moved to a different client within the past year, and I know several other people who have, too. There's nothing compelling about FirefoxOS compared to Android, iOS, or the incumbents. Average people will not switch to it. Without these people, it won't gain traction, and Mozilla will still have limited to no influence in the mobile space. And the same goes for Persona. It has been around for a few years now, but average people aren't using it, nor does it look like there's any reason they'd want to. "Openness" may be a noble goal, but I think they had much more influence when they were producing software that people liked to use because it worked well. The move away from this has corresponded to a decrease in their influence, and much greater influence for Google, Apple, Microsoft and even Opera.

by lukifer 13y ago

stephenr 13y ago

You lost me when you listed automattic and canonical in a positive, non-douchebag light

derefr 13y ago
The nice thing about open-source: Canonical's self-interested advancements of Ubuntu have made the OS quite a bit better. By "the OS", I am referring, of course, to Debian. :) I think (perhaps-douchebaggy) self-interest is perfectly fine when it has positive externalities in the world. You're free to avoid the drama of the Ubuntu project itself, while continuing to reap the rewards on the rest of the ecosystem from its existence.
- mikegioia 13y ago
  Seriously, people often forget there's Debian underneath Ubuntu. Any advancements towards Debian, by Canonical or anyone else, are a great thing.
  - stephenr 13y ago
    Only if those "advancements" make it back into Debian.
    - bpodgursky 13y ago
      Why? It's great either way. If improvements to Ubuntu help get people into linux, and they choose to stay on Ubuntu rather than move to Debian, how is that not a win?
      - stephenr 13y ago
        A win for who? My name is not RMS, I do not eat my own toe jam and have a superiority complex that compels me to dictate to others what they should do. I couldn't care less if someone else uses Linux. I care about Debian being a stable and secure OS for the servers I manage.
    - cpeterso 13y ago
      Are Canonical's code changes not open source? Backporting those changes is not necessarily their responsibility.
    - pekk 13y ago
      What is Debian missing and why is it Ubuntu's fault that it isn't in Debian?
- shmerl 13y ago
  I'm not sure if Ubuntu made Debian much better than it is. Sure, there are some contributions, but they usually go other way around - Debian benefits Ubuntu. Especially with latest developments of Ubuntu moving away from the rest of the Linux world (Mir, Unity and etc.). I.e. all the Ubuntu specific things aren't benefiting the rest, only Ubuntu. A related joke: http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/108/8/0/i_can__t_configure_debian_by_carnine9-d4wkixt.png http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/108/8/0/i_can__t_conf...
  - bad_user 13y ago
    Decisions like supporting and moving to Mir, Unity, etc... have been technical. You can't say they are douche-bags because of that. And on Ubuntu moving away from the rest of the Linux world, do you know what's the most popular OS that uses a Linux kernel and that will probably be the most popular OS period? It's Android. And besides the backing of Google, which definitely helped its popularity, given that other big companies tried variations of Linux on phones, you've got to wonder, aren't there technical reasons too for Android's popularity? And of course there are. Android maintains binary backwards compatibility. And Android simply skipped on all the X.org / GTK+ / Gnome / Qt / KDE cluster fuck. People complain about Android fragmentation, however compared to Linux on desktops, development for Android feels like you're in heaven.
Fice 13y ago
I would rather list Red Hat than Canonical.
- u2328 13y ago
  I'm glad somebody brought up Red Hat. I can't believe Canonical is mentioned in a similar context as Mozilla and Red Hat is forgotten. If we were talking about Google or Amazon, however...
jimbosis 13y ago
Can you be more specific as to your grievances, especially with Automattic?
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  I'm mostly peeved with the whole theme licensing issue that's popped up recently. Mostly the idea that if you don't do things their way, you're doing it wrong (and can be banned from speaking at a WordCamp).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- stephenr 13y ago
  My problem with Automattic is Wordpress.

PommeDeTerre 13y ago

Values listed on a web page are one thing. Actions are another. I haven't been impressed with their actions over the past few years. Just look at Firefox. Instead of striving to provide a lean, practical, extensible browser, all they've managed to do is copy Chrome as of late. The UI changes have not been for the better. The release schedule changes were very painful, and the version number inflation is pointless. While its performance and memory usage is marginally better these days, it has still been years without any significant improvement. It's not surprising that users are moving away from it to other browsers. Then there's Thunderbird. Aside from Firefox, this was one of their only other pieces of useful software. Yet they've dropped their support for it to a minimal level. What's worse, while neglecting their software that people actually use on a daily basis, they've embarked on pointless efforts like FirefoxOS and Persona. We don't need another mobile OS, especially one that's essentially crippled to only supporting development using HTML5, JavaScript and CSS (which, of course, are already available on Android and iOS, not to mention the other mobile OSes that are already widely available). Persona is clearly not gaining any traction. The only encouraging thing out of them has been Rust. But even that seems to be rather loosely associated with them, and appears to be regarded as quite experimental. I know, I know. I'm not paying for their software, so they don't have any obligation to me, etc., etc.. I'm merely not convinced that their actions really correspond to the principles in their manifesto very well.

emilsedgh 13y ago
Mozilla's value and goal is pushing for open web. Not creating the best browser. Creating a kickass browser was the way the reached their goal. We do need another mobile OS because current ones do not respect our freedom. Even if they are technically sufficient, user friendly and usable. So I dont care if Mozilla is copying Chrome or not. I just wish they stay in the same path AND be strong and influencial as they currently are.
- PommeDeTerre 13y ago
  Like I said earlier, it's pretty clear that the path they're following now is diminishing their influence. This page lists a variety of measures of browser usage share: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers Notice that over the past several years, in each data set, that Firefox's usage has dropped off, or at best not grown. People are leaving Firefox because it's not improving, and because it is actually getting worse in many ways for many people. If we're going to get the Chrome experience even when using Firefox, but done in an inferior fashion, we may as well just use Chrome. I expect we'd see a similar, if not more severe, drop off in Thunderbird's usage numbers. I've personally moved to a different client within the past year, and I know several other people who have, too. There's nothing compelling about FirefoxOS compared to Android, iOS, or the incumbents. Average people will not switch to it. Without these people, it won't gain traction, and Mozilla will still have limited to no influence in the mobile space. And the same goes for Persona. It has been around for a few years now, but average people aren't using it, nor does it look like there's any reason they'd want to. "Openness" may be a noble goal, but I think they had much more influence when they were producing software that people liked to use because it worked well. The move away from this has corresponded to a decrease in their influence, and much greater influence for Google, Apple, Microsoft and even Opera.