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Where/how does ritualized abuse/murder originate? This article talks about PNG, but I recall reading of similar incidents in various parts of Africa while the

Where/how does ritualized abuse/murder originate? This article talks about PNG, but I recall reading of similar incidents in various parts of Africa while the US has it's own fairly recent history of lynching [0]. 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

yareally 13y ago
Probably around the start of civilization since it appears in the old testament to stone people for various crimes[1]. United States also had witch trials in the 1600s in Salem Massachusetts. Europe had theirs with the Catholic Church (sometimes even digging up heretics after they were dead to burn them[2]). Also for many years executions were public display in many European Countries as well as the earlier days of the United States. Pretty much every culture has had some sort of ritualized murder/executions (whether deemed legal by the state/tribe/official body or otherwise). [1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_the_Old_Testament http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_wycliffe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_wycliffe
- lukifer 13y ago
  Human sacrifice is far more ancient than the modern state, coinciding with primitive religion. As sick as it may be, I think its primary purpose is in-group cohesion, regardless of the religious or political narrative pretext. A cadre who have knowingly committed murder together is one whose members will have strong bonds of loyalty to one another. See also: http://www.meltingasphalt.com/religion-politics-and-self-suppression/ http://www.meltingasphalt.com/religion-politics-and-self-sup...
  - incision 13y ago
    This is where my original question was going. To question whether there's some lower level function to this behavior. If it's developing consistently, independently I would think there's some base, primal desire being satisfied through it. It's an arresting question, I think.
laurenia 13y ago
You only have to look at the Salem Witch Trials to know that this has been going on for hundreds of years, and probably much longer than that. Any social group eventually develops its leaders and outcasts. Combine that with the human instinct to understand misfortune by casting blame, and you get situations like this.
bdunbar 13y ago
Where? Anywhere you find people, you'll find wretched crap like this. How? As a species we're real good at hurting each other.
mynameishere 13y ago
Huh? Most lynchings, both against either whites or blacks, were a result from vigilante justice. It was completely illegal, but a result from accusations of rape or murder, not witchcraft.
- incision 13y ago
  I said "ritualized abuse/murder" which speaks to the act, not any specific dressing the people committing it have chosen to rationalize it with.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Most lynchings, both against either whites or blacks, were a result from vigilante justice. It was completely illegal, but a result from accusations of rape or murder, not witchcraft. The fact that the accusations were of rape or murder doesn't make the murder any less ritualized.
  - tekromancr 13y ago
    I would argue that the United States death penalty is a form of ritualized murder.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      It is highly ritualized. The last meal, final words, gathering others to watch... really the only way that you could say that it isn't ritualized murder is if you want to nitpick about "when the government does it, that means it is not murder".
      - Dylan16807 13y ago
        It's not about who does it, it's about whether there is a sufficiently fair establishment of guilt. In a developed country anyone calm and reasonable enough to be part of establishing a trial is extremely likely to let the government handle the trial. But it's entirely possible to have a fair hearing without involving the government. Once you've shown guilt of a sufficiently heinous crime beyond reasonable doubt then from my point of view it's not murder to kill them. It doesn't matter who is doing that killing. There are other, simpler circumstances where you can show guilt to a reasonable degree, such as self-defense. If someone is shooting at you you can shoot back, for example. No murder.
vy8vWJlco 13y ago
I understand crowd frenzies (riots, lynchings, witch-hunts) as fear of becoming the focus ("better them than me") and the willingness to be a spectator while not seeing the line between watching to know and enabling an event gone horribly wrong. I'd also like to think only sociopaths are the main actors, but apathy and simple mistakes all add their weight to such events.

yareally 13y ago

Probably around the start of civilization since it appears in the old testament to stone people for various crimes[1]. United States also had witch trials in the 1600s in Salem Massachusetts. Europe had theirs with the Catholic Church (sometimes even digging up heretics after they were dead to burn them[2]). Also for many years executions were public display in many European Countries as well as the earlier days of the United States. Pretty much every culture has had some sort of ritualized murder/executions (whether deemed legal by the state/tribe/official body or otherwise). [1] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_the_Old_Testament http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_punishable_by_death_in_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_wycliffe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_wycliffe

lukifer 13y ago
Human sacrifice is far more ancient than the modern state, coinciding with primitive religion. As sick as it may be, I think its primary purpose is in-group cohesion, regardless of the religious or political narrative pretext. A cadre who have knowingly committed murder together is one whose members will have strong bonds of loyalty to one another. See also: http://www.meltingasphalt.com/religion-politics-and-self-suppression/ http://www.meltingasphalt.com/religion-politics-and-self-sup...
- incision 13y ago
  This is where my original question was going. To question whether there's some lower level function to this behavior. If it's developing consistently, independently I would think there's some base, primal desire being satisfied through it. It's an arresting question, I think.

laurenia 13y ago

You only have to look at the Salem Witch Trials to know that this has been going on for hundreds of years, and probably much longer than that. Any social group eventually develops its leaders and outcasts. Combine that with the human instinct to understand misfortune by casting blame, and you get situations like this.

bdunbar 13y ago

Where? Anywhere you find people, you'll find wretched crap like this. How? As a species we're real good at hurting each other.

mynameishere 13y ago

Huh? Most lynchings, both against either whites or blacks, were a result from vigilante justice. It was completely illegal, but a result from accusations of rape or murder, not witchcraft.

incision 13y ago
I said "ritualized abuse/murder" which speaks to the act, not any specific dressing the people committing it have chosen to rationalize it with.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Most lynchings, both against either whites or blacks, were a result from vigilante justice. It was completely illegal, but a result from accusations of rape or murder, not witchcraft. The fact that the accusations were of rape or murder doesn't make the murder any less ritualized.
- tekromancr 13y ago
  I would argue that the United States death penalty is a form of ritualized murder.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    It is highly ritualized. The last meal, final words, gathering others to watch... really the only way that you could say that it isn't ritualized murder is if you want to nitpick about "when the government does it, that means it is not murder".
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      It's not about who does it, it's about whether there is a sufficiently fair establishment of guilt. In a developed country anyone calm and reasonable enough to be part of establishing a trial is extremely likely to let the government handle the trial. But it's entirely possible to have a fair hearing without involving the government. Once you've shown guilt of a sufficiently heinous crime beyond reasonable doubt then from my point of view it's not murder to kill them. It doesn't matter who is doing that killing. There are other, simpler circumstances where you can show guilt to a reasonable degree, such as self-defense. If someone is shooting at you you can shoot back, for example. No murder.

vy8vWJlco 13y ago

I understand crowd frenzies (riots, lynchings, witch-hunts) as fear of becoming the focus ("better them than me") and the willingness to be a spectator while not seeing the line between watching to know and enabling an event gone horribly wrong. I'd also like to think only sociopaths are the main actors, but apathy and simple mistakes all add their weight to such events.