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The eugenic view I was referring to is not saying People should not be treated because it would spoil the gene pool but rather We certainly want to treat dis

by jkn 13y ago

The eugenic view I was referring to is not saying People should not be treated because it would spoil the gene pool but rather We certainly want to treat diseases, but this will spoil the gene pool unless we prevent the spread of bad genes Solutions to prevent the spread of bad genes range from quite evil (forced sterilization has been used extensively before WWII but I have never heard of something as bad as denying treatment) to slightly controversial, e.g. screening of embryos [1]. By the way, I have just stumbled on the Wikipedia page on dysgenics [2], which is more specifically what this argument is about. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preimplantation_genetic_diagnos... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
Thank you for your time and effort to explain this. Well, honestly, this smells national socialism from a mile. Which genes are bad? Is it really that genes are bad? What about their mutations? I have (not really suffer) ehlers-danlos type 2. Which is genetic disorder. Some people with it - like me - are lucky and have it really benign. It doesn't really affect my life in any way. It doesn't affect lifespan in my case. Then there are some others - with exact same gene mutations - who suffer constant pain to the point they would like to die (literally). Not to mention constant medical emergencies. Now, I have almost no problems because of eds. And one benefit - apparently I have lower risk of colon cancer. (there is more bile in the system which is laxative which helps preventing colon cancer, plus the colon is built differently, in my case causing "stuff" to move quicker). So, how would you know my gene mutation is good or bad? And how do you know that if you change it, something else won't be totally messed up instead? There is always the problem of unintended consequences. Not to mention that once you would open this pandora box, you'd also need to deal with prospect parents demanding "gene therapy" for their future kid because of a gene they think is bad. Like with cosmetic surgeries. People with gene A have higher risk of being short, so please doctor, please, let's "fix" that. Our boy can't be short! Can't have red hair! Can't have 40% higher risk of being depressed or obese too. And here we go, all blond, tall, beautiful. Wouldn't you agree?
- jkn 13y ago
  Totally! I think your example is a good illustration of the difficult questions we will face as genetic screening becomes more and more practical and affordable, thanks a lot for sharing. (I can't help but wonder what you would say to a doctor that tells you, "So do you want me to press this little button to make sure your children won't have the same condition?") However, it might also be that in the long term, the quality of the gene pool objectively deteriorates. Taking it to the extreme, imagine if nobody can grow older than five years without medical assistance... I guess this is also something we should consider.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    >imagine if nobody can grow older than five years without medical assistance I think that way before that happens we'll have something like "virtual", "immortal" "bodies". In other words I think that before we need all that medical care the original William Gibson's idea that we'll all end up stored somewhere in a computer memory connected to a network will happen. No body or genes really needed - we just "sit" in RAM, interact with others via network and are - immortal. Ray Kurzweil says it may even happen in our lifetimes. Heard Stephen Hawking mentioning something similar. Reaching point that we can live forever and don't really need our body for that. Or our body can be strengthened by armor, hardware of various types, to be much better and advanced than our bodies are. This reminds me a little bit the dilema local Government in Paris had in 1890s -- what we'll do with all the horse dung if the number of horses grows at the current rate? And then cars came along and it was all irrelevant. Seems to me it's also the same with depopulation. Who cares if there will be 20 billion of us in 50 years if we finally start colonizing other planets and the Moon?
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Are you trying to godwin without godwinning? Please don't.
- zanny 13y ago
  I'm confused why this debate even surfaces. Of course you don't forcibly sterilize people. I imagine the modern eugenics argument is about manipulating chromosomes rather than forcing people to not reproduce. IE, once we can selectively make the perfect human from a genetic standpoint (considering only using genes that promote intelligence / stamina / longevity / etc) that it becomes unethical to continue playing the genetic lottery and having children with FOP or down syndrome or some other life destroying condition. Which I guess says sterilize everyone and grow people in tubes (or wombs until we can get that far). At least it is fair!
anoncow 13y ago
What is a bad gene today can as easily be a reason for the survival of a species as it can be a reason for the opposite. We may or may not be able to predict the effect of a gene on a population. But the question is not that. The question is whether a person with 'bad' genes should have children or not. My answer - it is none my business! Whether a person has good or bad genes, he/she should be free to procreate. It is their choice. Provide pre conceptional counselling and let them decide.
- jkn 13y ago
  I agree on most of your points. A gene that is a burden under present conditions might prove a gift in a different environment or against a future disease, and anyway nobody should choose for someone else if they can have children or not. However the question is not if someone should have children or not. Genetic screening technologies are moving fast, as is our understanding of the human genome. The real question, that will take more and more importance in our society is Do I want to screen my sperm/ovum/embryos when I decide to have a child? and maybe Should genetic screening be mandatory in certain cases?
  - anoncow 13y ago
    >Should genetic screening be mandatory in certain cases? You find a "bad" gene, you tell the subject about it and inform them that their children might/will have it too/will have a certain condition. If at all required, mandatory screening and advisory would be the extreme limits of what should be allowed(But what conditions would require mandatory screening and how are you going to screen two people before they have sex? Think about the logistics and the invasion of privacy!). Even in those cases, the government shouldn't have the power to sterilize the subject. You can run educational campaigns. Teach people this stuff with sex-education or have married couples take a course(you will still miss out on a lot of people). Eugenics takes away a basic right of a life form. Update: I understand that you may be speaking about people who have been diagnosed as having a certain genetic condition. If a disease has the capacity to cause public harm, there are exceptions made to the professional secrecy that a doctor is supposed to maintain. This involves informing relatives/a potential spouse about a condition that the patient may transmit. In cases of infectious diseases, quarantine and isolation procedures are well established. But most are for infectious conditions which can harm the public. So if the off-springs of individuals with bad genes can infect large number of people with some contagious condition, isolation protocols may apply. But that is still hypothetical. If we dream up an horrendously bad genetic condition which can disrupt the human race, someone is going to come with horrendous regulations to prevent that. But the truth is most people suffering from "bad" gene induced conditions do not lead a normal life(do not have kids). If the sufferer of a genetic condition can easily have kids, then that condition may not be that "bad". Carriers of such genes could do with some pre conceptional counseling.

by jkn 13y ago

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago

Thank you for your time and effort to explain this. Well, honestly, this smells national socialism from a mile. Which genes are bad? Is it really that genes are bad? What about their mutations? I have (not really suffer) ehlers-danlos type 2. Which is genetic disorder. Some people with it - like me - are lucky and have it really benign. It doesn't really affect my life in any way. It doesn't affect lifespan in my case. Then there are some others - with exact same gene mutations - who suffer constant pain to the point they would like to die (literally). Not to mention constant medical emergencies. Now, I have almost no problems because of eds. And one benefit - apparently I have lower risk of colon cancer. (there is more bile in the system which is laxative which helps preventing colon cancer, plus the colon is built differently, in my case causing "stuff" to move quicker). So, how would you know my gene mutation is good or bad? And how do you know that if you change it, something else won't be totally messed up instead? There is always the problem of unintended consequences. Not to mention that once you would open this pandora box, you'd also need to deal with prospect parents demanding "gene therapy" for their future kid because of a gene they think is bad. Like with cosmetic surgeries. People with gene A have higher risk of being short, so please doctor, please, let's "fix" that. Our boy can't be short! Can't have red hair! Can't have 40% higher risk of being depressed or obese too. And here we go, all blond, tall, beautiful. Wouldn't you agree?

jkn 13y ago
Totally! I think your example is a good illustration of the difficult questions we will face as genetic screening becomes more and more practical and affordable, thanks a lot for sharing. (I can't help but wonder what you would say to a doctor that tells you, "So do you want me to press this little button to make sure your children won't have the same condition?") However, it might also be that in the long term, the quality of the gene pool objectively deteriorates. Taking it to the extreme, imagine if nobody can grow older than five years without medical assistance... I guess this is also something we should consider.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  >imagine if nobody can grow older than five years without medical assistance I think that way before that happens we'll have something like "virtual", "immortal" "bodies". In other words I think that before we need all that medical care the original William Gibson's idea that we'll all end up stored somewhere in a computer memory connected to a network will happen. No body or genes really needed - we just "sit" in RAM, interact with others via network and are - immortal. Ray Kurzweil says it may even happen in our lifetimes. Heard Stephen Hawking mentioning something similar. Reaching point that we can live forever and don't really need our body for that. Or our body can be strengthened by armor, hardware of various types, to be much better and advanced than our bodies are. This reminds me a little bit the dilema local Government in Paris had in 1890s -- what we'll do with all the horse dung if the number of horses grows at the current rate? And then cars came along and it was all irrelevant. Seems to me it's also the same with depopulation. Who cares if there will be 20 billion of us in 50 years if we finally start colonizing other planets and the Moon?
Dylan16807 13y ago
Are you trying to godwin without godwinning? Please don't.
zanny 13y ago
I'm confused why this debate even surfaces. Of course you don't forcibly sterilize people. I imagine the modern eugenics argument is about manipulating chromosomes rather than forcing people to not reproduce. IE, once we can selectively make the perfect human from a genetic standpoint (considering only using genes that promote intelligence / stamina / longevity / etc) that it becomes unethical to continue playing the genetic lottery and having children with FOP or down syndrome or some other life destroying condition. Which I guess says sterilize everyone and grow people in tubes (or wombs until we can get that far). At least it is fair!

anoncow 13y ago

What is a bad gene today can as easily be a reason for the survival of a species as it can be a reason for the opposite. We may or may not be able to predict the effect of a gene on a population. But the question is not that. The question is whether a person with 'bad' genes should have children or not. My answer - it is none my business! Whether a person has good or bad genes, he/she should be free to procreate. It is their choice. Provide pre conceptional counselling and let them decide.

jkn 13y ago
I agree on most of your points. A gene that is a burden under present conditions might prove a gift in a different environment or against a future disease, and anyway nobody should choose for someone else if they can have children or not. However the question is not if someone should have children or not. Genetic screening technologies are moving fast, as is our understanding of the human genome. The real question, that will take more and more importance in our society is Do I want to screen my sperm/ovum/embryos when I decide to have a child? and maybe Should genetic screening be mandatory in certain cases?
- anoncow 13y ago
  >Should genetic screening be mandatory in certain cases? You find a "bad" gene, you tell the subject about it and inform them that their children might/will have it too/will have a certain condition. If at all required, mandatory screening and advisory would be the extreme limits of what should be allowed(But what conditions would require mandatory screening and how are you going to screen two people before they have sex? Think about the logistics and the invasion of privacy!). Even in those cases, the government shouldn't have the power to sterilize the subject. You can run educational campaigns. Teach people this stuff with sex-education or have married couples take a course(you will still miss out on a lot of people). Eugenics takes away a basic right of a life form. Update: I understand that you may be speaking about people who have been diagnosed as having a certain genetic condition. If a disease has the capacity to cause public harm, there are exceptions made to the professional secrecy that a doctor is supposed to maintain. This involves informing relatives/a potential spouse about a condition that the patient may transmit. In cases of infectious diseases, quarantine and isolation procedures are well established. But most are for infectious conditions which can harm the public. So if the off-springs of individuals with bad genes can infect large number of people with some contagious condition, isolation protocols may apply. But that is still hypothetical. If we dream up an horrendously bad genetic condition which can disrupt the human race, someone is going to come with horrendous regulations to prevent that. But the truth is most people suffering from "bad" gene induced conditions do not lead a normal life(do not have kids). If the sufferer of a genetic condition can easily have kids, then that condition may not be that "bad". Carriers of such genes could do with some pre conceptional counseling.