4 ms·

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us. What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
A bit too pessimistic. Its not that bad here, especially in the bigger non-southern cities.
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  Its not that bad here In a business context?
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Ya, I know people who start businesses and they aren't completely screwed. Taxis also don't take me for the scenic route, at least in Beijing or Shanghai.
    - culturestate 13y ago
      I've never had a problem with a taxi driver in Shenzhen or Guangzhou, either - it's certainly better than, say, Rio. I'm not going to pretend that doing business in China is "easy" or that China doesn't sometimes boggle the mind with absurd and archaic decision making paradigms, but it's not exactly the wild west anymore.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - eitally 13y ago
      I agree. We operate in several areas of mainland China (Shenzhen, Hangzhou, and Kunshan, near Shanghai), and we have a major IT office in Shenzhen. Their general responsibility is the combination software/hardware hacking to build factory control systems, and the impossible-to-overestimate benefit of having those people perform that specific function is precisely their can-do attitude and willingness to hack. This in contrast to, say, India, where we have a much larger dev+ops organization that generally spends their time executing assigned tasks rather than engaging in creative problem solving. Yes, there are pitfalls to operating in China re: government/law/IP risk, but on the other hand, it seems nearly everyone outside party politics has learned hacking skills simply in order to survive. It's an incredibly valuable market, and this attitude along with a decent formal education system and ubiquitous internet access is propelling it full steam ahead. tl;dr: Yes, there are problems, but there are a lot of upsides to operating in China, too, besides even the $ (either the huge market or cost savings, depending who you are).
jckt 13y ago
I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business practices". That said, if you're white, then I would be more inclined to believe the incidences of fraud you've experienced. I still don't believe it's a majority, but the incidences of foreigner-exploitation in China is significant enough to turn away a lot of potential business. I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, especially Caucasians, owe them something -- "after all, didn't you guys plunder our country's treasures 100, 200 years ago?" (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Still, there seems to be a slightly Sinophobic slant to these articles. Stuxnet (I think most people believe it's American/Israeli?) is just evidence of how far the Pentagon has gone with hacking. Its sophistication is actually amazing, and I while most may claim that "hacking Iran is beneficial for the rest of the world", I don't think the consequent fear of American hacking prowess is irrational at all. Is China's decision to ramp up their own cyber-espionage the right thing to do? I don't know. But I believe that any look at the history of international politics will show that nobody really gives a shit about international law whenever it becomes inconvenient. China is hardly a "victim", as they claim, but the narrative of "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.
- prollyignored 13y ago
  > (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective. Being a hippie peace freak is just silly. > "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has. True that.
vishaldpatel 13y ago
A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. To do business with a reputed company, you have to have a good reputation. As the company that you're working with's reputation gets worse, so do your chances of getting work done / getting paid. Of course, well-reputed companies are probably in higher demand from both suppliers and customers, just like everywhere else, compared to say, cheaper firms.
- PakG1 13y ago
  Where in the world is what you said any different? The unfortunate thing is that the reputation thing does not seem to extend to customer relationships. It boggles my mind how companies in China seem to be so willing to offer their customers substandard (or even unsafe) products for the sake of saving pennies here and there, especially in an age of weibo and capital punishment for the worst executives.
- wisty 13y ago
  > A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. There's two concepts here - "face" (literal translation) and "connections" (also a literal translation). Both are widely misunderstood. AFAIK (and I'm not an expert): Connections (guanxi) is fairly straightforward - it's all about who you know. However, there's a spectrum between casual acquaintances, people who do each other favors, extremely close friends, and family (in order of usefulness). It's often used as a bluff too (saying you know a guy, when it's all just a con). "Face" (mian zi) is much more complicated. Since the term is used in English, it's easy to mistake what it really means. And it's also kind of vague - everything from "don't look undignified", to "don't let anyone disrespect you", to "have a good reputation". Generally, Westerners think "face" means "be upfront, and willing to admit to an honest mistake". In China, this is rarely the case.
kyllo 13y ago
The attitude in China is that if you don't cheat, you're the fool--because the other guy is certainly cheating you. So everyone lies, cheats, and steals (while of course maintaining a thin veneer of plausible deniability) to avoid being the bigger fool. This probably is related to the fact that China is a shame-based culture rather than a guilt-based culture. What I mean by that is, people there only feel bad about immoral/unethical behavior if and when they get caught. Wrongdoing is externalized, it exists only in the eyes of others. "How do you sleep at night?" Is a question Americans often ask when they know someone is getting away with morally wrong or criminal behavior. In China, you will not hear an equivalent question.
binarysolo 13y ago
Out of curiosity, how were you finding business partners? There are plenty of upstanding businesses (as well as terrible ones) but most markets are fairly opaque; as a Taiwanese person myself I've found most success working with a local partner to manage resources.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

A bit too pessimistic. Its not that bad here, especially in the bigger non-southern cities.

sillysaurus 13y ago
Its not that bad here In a business context?
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Ya, I know people who start businesses and they aren't completely screwed. Taxis also don't take me for the scenic route, at least in Beijing or Shanghai.
  - culturestate 13y ago
    I've never had a problem with a taxi driver in Shenzhen or Guangzhou, either - it's certainly better than, say, Rio. I'm not going to pretend that doing business in China is "easy" or that China doesn't sometimes boggle the mind with absurd and archaic decision making paradigms, but it's not exactly the wild west anymore.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - eitally 13y ago
    I agree. We operate in several areas of mainland China (Shenzhen, Hangzhou, and Kunshan, near Shanghai), and we have a major IT office in Shenzhen. Their general responsibility is the combination software/hardware hacking to build factory control systems, and the impossible-to-overestimate benefit of having those people perform that specific function is precisely their can-do attitude and willingness to hack. This in contrast to, say, India, where we have a much larger dev+ops organization that generally spends their time executing assigned tasks rather than engaging in creative problem solving. Yes, there are pitfalls to operating in China re: government/law/IP risk, but on the other hand, it seems nearly everyone outside party politics has learned hacking skills simply in order to survive. It's an incredibly valuable market, and this attitude along with a decent formal education system and ubiquitous internet access is propelling it full steam ahead. tl;dr: Yes, there are problems, but there are a lot of upsides to operating in China, too, besides even the $ (either the huge market or cost savings, depending who you are).

jckt 13y ago

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business practices". That said, if you're white, then I would be more inclined to believe the incidences of fraud you've experienced. I still don't believe it's a majority, but the incidences of foreigner-exploitation in China is significant enough to turn away a lot of potential business. I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, especially Caucasians, owe them something -- "after all, didn't you guys plunder our country's treasures 100, 200 years ago?" (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Still, there seems to be a slightly Sinophobic slant to these articles. Stuxnet (I think most people believe it's American/Israeli?) is just evidence of how far the Pentagon has gone with hacking. Its sophistication is actually amazing, and I while most may claim that "hacking Iran is beneficial for the rest of the world", I don't think the consequent fear of American hacking prowess is irrational at all. Is China's decision to ramp up their own cyber-espionage the right thing to do? I don't know. But I believe that any look at the history of international politics will show that nobody really gives a shit about international law whenever it becomes inconvenient. China is hardly a "victim", as they claim, but the narrative of "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has.

prollyignored 13y ago
> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective. Being a hippie peace freak is just silly. > "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days distracts us from the much-more formidable power that our Pentagon already has. True that.

vishaldpatel 13y ago

A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. To do business with a reputed company, you have to have a good reputation. As the company that you're working with's reputation gets worse, so do your chances of getting work done / getting paid. Of course, well-reputed companies are probably in higher demand from both suppliers and customers, just like everywhere else, compared to say, cheaper firms.

PakG1 13y ago
Where in the world is what you said any different? The unfortunate thing is that the reputation thing does not seem to extend to customer relationships. It boggles my mind how companies in China seem to be so willing to offer their customers substandard (or even unsafe) products for the sake of saving pennies here and there, especially in an age of weibo and capital punishment for the worst executives.
wisty 13y ago
> A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. There's two concepts here - "face" (literal translation) and "connections" (also a literal translation). Both are widely misunderstood. AFAIK (and I'm not an expert): Connections (guanxi) is fairly straightforward - it's all about who you know. However, there's a spectrum between casual acquaintances, people who do each other favors, extremely close friends, and family (in order of usefulness). It's often used as a bluff too (saying you know a guy, when it's all just a con). "Face" (mian zi) is much more complicated. Since the term is used in English, it's easy to mistake what it really means. And it's also kind of vague - everything from "don't look undignified", to "don't let anyone disrespect you", to "have a good reputation". Generally, Westerners think "face" means "be upfront, and willing to admit to an honest mistake". In China, this is rarely the case.

kyllo 13y ago

The attitude in China is that if you don't cheat, you're the fool--because the other guy is certainly cheating you. So everyone lies, cheats, and steals (while of course maintaining a thin veneer of plausible deniability) to avoid being the bigger fool. This probably is related to the fact that China is a shame-based culture rather than a guilt-based culture. What I mean by that is, people there only feel bad about immoral/unethical behavior if and when they get caught. Wrongdoing is externalized, it exists only in the eyes of others. "How do you sleep at night?" Is a question Americans often ask when they know someone is getting away with morally wrong or criminal behavior. In China, you will not hear an equivalent question.

binarysolo 13y ago

Out of curiosity, how were you finding business partners? There are plenty of upstanding businesses (as well as terrible ones) but most markets are fairly opaque; as a Taiwanese person myself I've found most success working with a local partner to manage resources.