6 ms·

Doctoral degrees: The disposable academic (2010)

77 points by xSwag 13y ago

dumitrue 13y ago
2 year-old story. Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2019665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2019665 [886 days old] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5503996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5503996 [46 days old]
- ng12 13y ago
  True, but I think this deserves reconsideration considering the recent debate about H1-B visas -- especially since the fact that there are (relatively) few US-born PhD's is one of the major justifications for increasing the number of visas awarded.
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
    On that note can anyone explain to me why immigration reform is a hot button in us politics - surely if you want to employ someone from outside the US you tell them to use Skype. A plane ticket every six weeks will increase your selection far more than anything congress can pass - especially for a hot coder with you know family and commitments Or is that it - let the cheap young single coders in ?
    - dumitrue 13y ago
      H1Bs can't vote you out of office so it's easy to be against them, the risk is lower to lose political capital (especially if you frame the discussion in terms of "protecting the jobs for Americans").
      - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
        But immigration laws one way or another do not stop a company in SV hiring a fantastic JS coder in Helsinki American jobs is the wrong term - google jobs, apple jobs, Facebook jobs - all up for grabs by the best in the world
    - shadowfox 13y ago
      > A plane ticket every six weeks May not be that easy given what you are allowed to use a Business visa for.
  - dumitrue 13y ago
    I see. Nothing gets to rattle the flame wars around here more than the combo of "is higher education really necessary or can I drop out and build the next tumblr?" and "highly-skilled aliens with PhDs are taking our jobs by accepting lower wages". Good job.
jacoblyles 13y ago
We need to open up the knowledge guild so that people don't have to get a PHD to participate in new research. Open Access to scientific journals is a good first step.
- dumitrue 13y ago
  There's absolutely no requirement to have a PhD to participate in research (grad students would never get to publish, though I understand this is not what you meant). When you submit an article to a journal or a conference (at least in my field), you don't get to (or have to) expose your credentials. In fact, a lot of times the submissions are double-blind so the reviewers don't even get to see your name or your institution. If you have a crazy idea and the peer reviewers find it worthwhile publishing, it'll make it into publication even if you don't have a GED. Open Access is a completely orthogonal issue to this.
  - wmf 13y ago
    If you can't read the literature because it's behind a paywall that you can't afford, it's very likely that any papers you write will be rejected for poor form, lack of proper citations, and possibly being entirely redundant. I think there are much bigger problems trying to perform research outside "the system", but access to the literature is an issue.
    - anologwintermut 13y ago
      Most research papers are findable via Google. Authors post them online. The better argument for open access is merely that universities shouldn't be paying for or private parties profiting from providing access to publicly funded research Often times, the knowledge guild is actually never put down on paper. You, sadly, need to be at a university where people are working on what you want to be able to do anything. Papers are just waypoints.
      - Someone 13y ago
        Devils's advocate: if no "private parties profiting from providing access to publicly funded research" should exist, shouldn't you be opposed to "Most research papers are findable via Google.", too? Google is making profits from publicly fundable research, too. IMO, there is nothing wrong with companies making a profit from providing access to publicly funded research; the only problems are lack of competition and (IMO consequently) profit margins that society finds unjust. The former, I think, is being settled. More and more new research is effectively open access. The latter, then, will follow. And to your second point: there used to be companies that had university-like environments where short-time profits do not rule the day (AT&T, Xerox, Philips Natlab, Apple's ATG). Nowadays, Google and Microsoft Research still have similar groups.
fein 13y ago
Well of course! PhD's are in the unfortunate position to be overqualified for 90% of the positions they would apply to, and too much of an education to leverage for a higher salary. Industry experience is what makes the R&D rooms at BigCo's tick, and academia doesn't pay that well. Even a masters in CS is overkill these days. Most employers are looking for entry level code monkeys in order to underpay, or industry hardened, bitter individuals to act as leads and seniors (assuming they didn't promote from within). I have the opportunity to get my masters in CS for free, but I'm not sure if the time spent is really worth it. I could either have another expensive piece of paper, or add more code to my github account for future employment... Whenever I decide to switch jobs.
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  Depends on the job - if your job gives you thinking and researching time then it's probably possible to do a masters from coursera and books If you are back to back sprints (it's a marathon but if we ring the bell on every lap we will get there faster) then you need a masters to put the time aside
- drobilla 13y ago
  > I could either have another expensive piece of paper, or add more code to my github account for future employment... You could always do both. Academics who can actually write good code are a pretty rare commodity.
  - fein 13y ago
    I'm a developer at a state university: Free Tuition. I feel guilty about not up and doing it already, but I'm only 1 year out of college, and don't want to go back to that grind just yet. I really have no excuse aside from "I don't wanna" right now, and that's a pretty shit reason.
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
That's not what PHds are for. After a certain level of education we are not training the individual to optimise their income - we select those who will be paid and supported to do research to invent the next generation. We need to grow grad students and professors of every science so that one of them will have the breakthrough that keeps humankind on an upward trajectory Ps It's two years old to you, it's brand new to me ;-)
Rhapso 13y ago
I'm currently working on my PHD in Computer Science. All the doctoral students I know have a very firm understanding that their degree is not the most profitable idea. If we wanted money then we would not be trying to be scientists. We pursue it because we love it and because we a curious.
- BruceIV 13y ago
  Agreed. I'd be making twice (if not three or four times) as much if I went and got an industry job instead of pursuing my CS PhD, but my stipend is sufficient to live comfortably enough on, and the pay raise wouldn't be worth the loss of autonomy to me.
sgt101 13y ago
It takes a certain poverty of mind to quantify the value of an education in terms of earnings. I don't earn a huge amount, but I have a fantastic job, I live in a wonderful place about 5 minutes from my office and doing my Ph.D. was the best thing that I ever did. I agree that you don't need one, and many people with one that I have met and employed are fairly hopeless (in comparison to razor sharp and super talented B.Sc. folk) but babe, if it floats your boat go for it. Don't listen to the haters!
- manaskarekar 13y ago
  Reminds me of 'The illustrated guide to a Ph.D' - http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
  - kaeluka 13y ago
    I saw Matt Might give this talk (or: a talk with this topic) this year -- my god, what a gifted speaker!
  - chrisrhoden 13y ago
    What a perfectly delightful piece of academic propaganda. I'm sure that I am overreacting, but the suggestion that a PhD is the first and only time that you will experience original knowledge in your life seems quite smug.
    - doktrin 13y ago
      I'm pretty far from an academic, but I do believe you are overreacting a bit. It would be absurd to even imply that a PhD was the only route to original knowledge (insert patent clerk anecdote here). However, original knowledge is one of the core tenets of an academic doctorate after all, and it's certainly one legitimate avenue towards original research and knowledge.
      - crntaylor 13y ago
        I don't know where the "Einstein had little formal education in physics" meme originated, but I'd like to kill it. Einstein was awarded a PhD before the publication of any of his seminal 1905 papers.
andydrizen 13y ago
I finished my maths PhD last year. The concept that PhD grads earn less than people who opted out of academia earlier makes a lot of sense to me. PhDs grads aren't financially driven - they are mathematically driven - to the extent of thinking about problems all day. Everyone I knew used to keep a notebook and pen by the bed because waking up in the night with an idea was so common. With this much passion, the desire to leave academia for a well-paid industry job is low.
kaeluka 13y ago
I'm so sick of economists/journalists/outsiders implying that the reason to study or, more general, to learn is income. I do it because it's giving me the chance to pick problems I find interesting, try to solve them as best as possible and learn a lot about myself along the way. Also, where I'm doing my PhD, a starting salary as a PhD student is comparable (slightly lower) with entry level programmer salaries. edit: economists -> economists/journalists/outsiders
- VLM 13y ago
  "I'm so sick of economists/journalists/outsiders implying the reason to" They're not implying reasons, they're reporting it. Its all about how much your culture values people with PHD / in the pipeline to get one. You may not like what your culture is saying about you, but no point in blaming the messenger. Rotate into a (hopefully) nonpersonal analogy. Say a statistician reports that your average ex-con makes 25% less than someone who hasn't been punished yet. The proper response isn't against the statistician, or that the point of prison isn't to make money, or that ex-cons used to make more money in the good old days, the point is to observe that our culture doesn't particularly value ex-cons, much less than most assume, and much worse than it used to be. Like being a black sheep? Nothin wrong with being an individual. But don't give someone a hassle for reporting the emperor has no clothes. They're reporting outcomes, not processes. Reporting actual measured price not self perceived value. IF they were morally or ethically attacking because academia leads to poverty etc etc ... you'd know. The tone of the article wouldn't be "hey guess what"
  - kaeluka 13y ago
    this article is very much an opinion piece. Subtitle: "Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time". Weasel words all over the place, invented problems (at least not backed with anything): |Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things.". I'm not reading further now as I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say here.
p4bl0 13y ago
"Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time". I admit it, I didn't even read farther. Would it even come to mind to people writing this kind of article that one might do a PhD by passion and interest? If one wants to do research and teach, on one hand doing a PhD is the (only?) way to start doing this two-sides job immediately after a master and on the other hand it's the better way to get this kind of job after? And even if one doesn't want to pursue a career in academia, one could perfectly want to do some research in a first time and only after that get a job in industry. Maybe one doesn't care that he is not paid more than if he did get a job in industry right after his master, because he did something that passionated him for a few years in between? Seriously what's the point of this kind of article? A PhD is a fantastic adventure! If people want to do a PhD let them. People don't do PhD to earn more money, that's just a stupid idea. EDIT: Ah! I'm happy to see that while I wrote this comment a few others with the same idea were posted :-).
drobilla 13y ago
Someone needs to write a "why getting a job in industry is a waste of time" rebuttal to this tired argument to illustrate how ridiculous it is to evaluate everything with a single (and shallow) goal structure. After all, it typically doesn't contribute anything new or meaningful to scientific knowledge, therefore it is a waste of time (...). I guess I shouldn't expect any better from The Economist, but not everyone in the world just does whatever they can to make the most money possible, ignoring all other considerations. Assuming I'm making enough money to survive comfortably (which is essentially guaranteed with computer anything, including grad school itself), I don't care. What I get to work on, and what environment I get to work on it in, is far, far, more important. Overridingly important. This mentality (though usually not so extreme) is pretty common among math and computing people, which is probably why industry is finally starting to notice that workplace perks are very important. There are plenty of extremely talented people who'd gladly take a 50% pay cut to work in a less shitty environment...
- dcalacci 13y ago
  Totally on point. I don't think it's useful to compare the value of a successful PhD experience to some amount of money. This is especially true for the people who would be considering a PhD in the first place. I agree that people value the environment they work in, but I think that to the people you outline, working in a culture that values original ideas and open discourse is more important than having workplace perks like free sodas.
- lucisferre 13y ago
  Did you really just shit on the Economist on the whole?
- mathattack 13y ago
  Very true. Most programmers in NYC could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it because they don't like the abuse. Most Physics professors could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it for a variety of reasons. It's about more than money. But... The core of the story is true. There's a systemic problem with the Phd market. Every school and professor has an incentive to churn out more than the market needs. Like any career choice, people need to go into this with open eyes.
gcheong 13y ago
This title hardly seems to reflect the main point of the article which is the problem of enticing more PhD candidates in order to acquire cheap research and teaching labor. The fact that they may not earn more than with a Masters was a fairly minor point.
disgruntledphd2 13y ago
Ok, so I read the article (years ago, while in the midst of a social sciences PhD, so imagine how I felt :)), and I read it again. Then, I vainly read the comments hoping that someone had made my point, but alas. So, a couple of propositions: 1) pay in academia is less than that in industry (especially in engineering and computing) 2) more PhD's stay in academia. 3) Averages are affected by extreme values. Note I'm using the mean here, as that's what all the studies do (annoyingly enough). Therefore, it would make sense that on an aggregate level, the salaries of people with PhD's would not show an increase relative to those with masters. Note that clearly this does not imply that doing a PhD is an (economic) waste of time, as it may be that PhD's, conditional on being employed in industry actually earn more than those with master's degrees. Man, I hate the mean sometimes.
- dcalacci 13y ago
  Yeah, it's likely that the values in the article don't really mean what they are presented to mean due to average career choices. This article would say something more meaningful if it included data only from PhD's that attempted to go into industry.
dcalacci 13y ago
I think that although this article notes some important disappointments in the way PhD students are treated, it is speaking to an audience that most likely doesn't exist. I don't think it's useful to compare the value of a successful PhD experience to some amount of money. This is especially true for the people who would be considering a PhD in the first place. Whether or not someone pursues a PhD likely comes down to the personal value they believe they will get from the process, not the projected economic benefit. On some level, it makes sense that the majority of PhD-holders do not have a starting-gate income advantage over BS holders. In recent years, a BS has become a gateway to the workforce. I think this is partly because of the ease of hiring it presents to employers. If someone is a college graduate, that serves as a soft guarantee of ability, responsiblity, and education. PhD work is by nature ill-suited to the workforce. Research positions are rare, and finding an open opportunity that speaks perfectly to a unique education will be difficult. Hiring a PhD student may only come with the 'soft guarantee' mentioned above, and little else, if the position does not align with the students' research.
suyash 13y ago
I know some programmers with no college degree at all are making same salary if not more than programmers that have phd's and the same number of years of experience.
- tsotha 13y ago
  As someone who has been involved in hiring (and sometimes firing) developers for a few decades now, I have come to the conclusion whatever value advanced degrees in CS have for the recipient doesn't translate into making him a more productive coder. In fact, these individuals tend to get tangled up in trying to zero in on the best solution for problems instead of the "good enough" solution that would have taken a fraction of the time. We don't pay extra for advanced CS degrees. In fact, we prefer to hire people with EE, physics, and math degrees over CS in general.
tychonoff 13y ago
I obtained a PhD in pure math 30 years ago, and promptly went into computing with no programming skills. Mathematics allowed me to see things in a more general light, appreciate the importance of elegant code, and work on interesting problems that others might find difficult (eg. graph-theoretic constructions, encryption, etc.). And it's really nice to formulate and prove your own theorems just to make your code work. Putting a $ figure on higher education is like setting the value of a hair transplant.
- vlasev 13y ago
  The right question to ask yourself is would have your experience been any different if you worked on a Master's in pure math instead?
michaelochurch 13y ago
Sorry, but I see bad advice here. "Waste of time"? No, it's not. Academia as a career, unless you're unambiguously one of the top minds of your generation, is a bad idea. That boat has sailed and sunk. However, a PhD in math or CS will make you eligible for higher-quality jobs more quickly than a Master's degree. There's a certain prestige that PhDs have that someone like me probably won't, and by the time you're 35+, it's almost impossible to go back, due to a combination of financial problems and admissions (you're now what is called "non-traditional"). I left a math PhD program for an internship on Wall Street. It was the right decision for me, especially because it got me on the job market before the Crash of 2008. Would I recommend that for everyone? No, I wouldn't. By the time you are 40, whether you have a working brain or not will be a function of the quality of work you did in your 20s and 30s. If you do a decade or more of stupid work-- and the work most people get assigned is that-- you'll have lost your edge. On the other hand, if you keep doing exciting stuff, you'll be one of the sharpest people out there (and running circles around young people falling flat on mistakes you've already made). For your future, interesting work matters, and a PhD is a powerful asset (though it doesn't guarantee anything) in the battle for the scarce interesting projects.
- anxx 13y ago
  I find myself agreeing with you on many things. I first noticed your username after the real-googler discussion and what you saw at Google is so similar to what I saw in my job in a bank. Without external or positional prestige, there is little interesting work for even the bright young staff engineers.
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    Valve figured it out: let people move around the company at will. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/dont-look-now-but-valve-just-humiliated-your-corporate-culture/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/dont-look-now... http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/tech-companies-open-allocation-is-your-only-real-option/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/tech-companie... Anything else falls down, both because the interesting work gets hoarded and distributed as a political token, and because the best people find it easier (after 3-5 years at most) to leave then to get the work they want internally. Good companies are out there, but they tend to be slower growing. This ties in to my r/K-selection analysis of capitalism: http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1es505/corporate_work_is_the_most_elaborate/ca3od3d http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1es505/corporate...
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misnome 13y ago
If you are doing a PhD in order to earn more, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.
smutticus 13y ago
The only thing this article convinces me of is the shallowness of The Economist. The University of Pheonix offers PhDs and so does MIT. If the University of Pheonix starts offering more PhDs each year and MIT keeps graduating the same number, then according to TFA the USA would be doing better in terms of PhDs. This is asinine reasoning and does harm to educational policy in the USA. PhD programs differ widely between schools and disciplines. If you're going to pursue a PhD do some investigation. Find out what graduates from the program are doing now. Do you want to do what they're doing? If so then consider a PhD from this program. If not then either don't do a PhD or find another program.
zmmmmm 13y ago
This doesn't surprise me at all. Most of the high paying jobs in software development have almost zero academic interest. People with PhDs are simultaneously far too overqualified academically and underqualified in terms of raw industry experience to get such jobs. One of the key reservations that I had before starting my PhD was how much it would reduce my employment options and limit my earning potential; I did it anyway. I don't know how things will work out, but I made peace with the fact that I will in all likelihood be earning less after I get my PhD than I was beforehand.
kirk21 13y ago
Depends on what topic you are working on. Very often PhD's work on projects for companies so that they have practical experience as well. (disclosure: we are working on a tool for academics: http://bohr.launchrock.com/ http://bohr.launchrock.com/).
fragsworth 13y ago
Several possible reasons why there might be too many people getting Ph.D's: 1) It's the only way to get a job in certain really interesting fields 2) Ph.D's garner massive respect from peers 3) Disrespect for industry, there's a perception of tedium, and looking down on people who are "code monkeys" or "project managers" 4) Some kind of academic momentum - it's socially and psychologically easier to stay in college/academia than to switch to industry
- vlasev 13y ago
  I have to disagree with you on points 1-3. They are the minor points. I think number 4 should be on top of your list. Number 4 and then number 3 together probably make up 90% of the real reason why people end up doing a phd.
  - fragsworth 13y ago
    Perhaps. But the minor points are the ones most Ph.D's will say are their reasons. The last one (social/psychological) is probably the least likely to be admitted.
pgbovine 13y ago
Since people often ask me this question, here is why I personally pursued a Ph.D. in CS: http://pgbovine.net/why-pursue-PhD.htm http://pgbovine.net/why-pursue-PhD.htm YMMV, though.
cwhy 13y ago
Yes, totally agree. Please, smart people who just want to find a good job for money, do not take PhDs like no-brainers, and leave some vacancies for people who want to do some real research......

77 points by xSwag 13y ago

2 year-old story. Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2019665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2019665 [886 days old] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5503996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5503996 [46 days old]

ng12 13y ago
True, but I think this deserves reconsideration considering the recent debate about H1-B visas -- especially since the fact that there are (relatively) few US-born PhD's is one of the major justifications for increasing the number of visas awarded.
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  On that note can anyone explain to me why immigration reform is a hot button in us politics - surely if you want to employ someone from outside the US you tell them to use Skype. A plane ticket every six weeks will increase your selection far more than anything congress can pass - especially for a hot coder with you know family and commitments Or is that it - let the cheap young single coders in ?
  - dumitrue 13y ago
    H1Bs can't vote you out of office so it's easy to be against them, the risk is lower to lose political capital (especially if you frame the discussion in terms of "protecting the jobs for Americans").
    - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
      But immigration laws one way or another do not stop a company in SV hiring a fantastic JS coder in Helsinki American jobs is the wrong term - google jobs, apple jobs, Facebook jobs - all up for grabs by the best in the world
  - shadowfox 13y ago
    > A plane ticket every six weeks May not be that easy given what you are allowed to use a Business visa for.
- dumitrue 13y ago
  I see. Nothing gets to rattle the flame wars around here more than the combo of "is higher education really necessary or can I drop out and build the next tumblr?" and "highly-skilled aliens with PhDs are taking our jobs by accepting lower wages". Good job.

jacoblyles 13y ago

We need to open up the knowledge guild so that people don't have to get a PHD to participate in new research. Open Access to scientific journals is a good first step.

dumitrue 13y ago
There's absolutely no requirement to have a PhD to participate in research (grad students would never get to publish, though I understand this is not what you meant). When you submit an article to a journal or a conference (at least in my field), you don't get to (or have to) expose your credentials. In fact, a lot of times the submissions are double-blind so the reviewers don't even get to see your name or your institution. If you have a crazy idea and the peer reviewers find it worthwhile publishing, it'll make it into publication even if you don't have a GED. Open Access is a completely orthogonal issue to this.
- wmf 13y ago
  If you can't read the literature because it's behind a paywall that you can't afford, it's very likely that any papers you write will be rejected for poor form, lack of proper citations, and possibly being entirely redundant. I think there are much bigger problems trying to perform research outside "the system", but access to the literature is an issue.
  - anologwintermut 13y ago
    Most research papers are findable via Google. Authors post them online. The better argument for open access is merely that universities shouldn't be paying for or private parties profiting from providing access to publicly funded research Often times, the knowledge guild is actually never put down on paper. You, sadly, need to be at a university where people are working on what you want to be able to do anything. Papers are just waypoints.
    - Someone 13y ago
      Devils's advocate: if no "private parties profiting from providing access to publicly funded research" should exist, shouldn't you be opposed to "Most research papers are findable via Google.", too? Google is making profits from publicly fundable research, too. IMO, there is nothing wrong with companies making a profit from providing access to publicly funded research; the only problems are lack of competition and (IMO consequently) profit margins that society finds unjust. The former, I think, is being settled. More and more new research is effectively open access. The latter, then, will follow. And to your second point: there used to be companies that had university-like environments where short-time profits do not rule the day (AT&T, Xerox, Philips Natlab, Apple's ATG). Nowadays, Google and Microsoft Research still have similar groups.

fein 13y ago

Well of course! PhD's are in the unfortunate position to be overqualified for 90% of the positions they would apply to, and too much of an education to leverage for a higher salary. Industry experience is what makes the R&D rooms at BigCo's tick, and academia doesn't pay that well. Even a masters in CS is overkill these days. Most employers are looking for entry level code monkeys in order to underpay, or industry hardened, bitter individuals to act as leads and seniors (assuming they didn't promote from within). I have the opportunity to get my masters in CS for free, but I'm not sure if the time spent is really worth it. I could either have another expensive piece of paper, or add more code to my github account for future employment... Whenever I decide to switch jobs.

lifeisstillgood 13y ago
Depends on the job - if your job gives you thinking and researching time then it's probably possible to do a masters from coursera and books If you are back to back sprints (it's a marathon but if we ring the bell on every lap we will get there faster) then you need a masters to put the time aside
drobilla 13y ago
> I could either have another expensive piece of paper, or add more code to my github account for future employment... You could always do both. Academics who can actually write good code are a pretty rare commodity.
- fein 13y ago
  I'm a developer at a state university: Free Tuition. I feel guilty about not up and doing it already, but I'm only 1 year out of college, and don't want to go back to that grind just yet. I really have no excuse aside from "I don't wanna" right now, and that's a pretty shit reason.

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

That's not what PHds are for. After a certain level of education we are not training the individual to optimise their income - we select those who will be paid and supported to do research to invent the next generation. We need to grow grad students and professors of every science so that one of them will have the breakthrough that keeps humankind on an upward trajectory Ps It's two years old to you, it's brand new to me ;-)

Rhapso 13y ago

I'm currently working on my PHD in Computer Science. All the doctoral students I know have a very firm understanding that their degree is not the most profitable idea. If we wanted money then we would not be trying to be scientists. We pursue it because we love it and because we a curious.

BruceIV 13y ago
Agreed. I'd be making twice (if not three or four times) as much if I went and got an industry job instead of pursuing my CS PhD, but my stipend is sufficient to live comfortably enough on, and the pay raise wouldn't be worth the loss of autonomy to me.

sgt101 13y ago

It takes a certain poverty of mind to quantify the value of an education in terms of earnings. I don't earn a huge amount, but I have a fantastic job, I live in a wonderful place about 5 minutes from my office and doing my Ph.D. was the best thing that I ever did. I agree that you don't need one, and many people with one that I have met and employed are fairly hopeless (in comparison to razor sharp and super talented B.Sc. folk) but babe, if it floats your boat go for it. Don't listen to the haters!

manaskarekar 13y ago
Reminds me of 'The illustrated guide to a Ph.D' - http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/ http://matt.might.net/articles/phd-school-in-pictures/
- kaeluka 13y ago
  I saw Matt Might give this talk (or: a talk with this topic) this year -- my god, what a gifted speaker!
- chrisrhoden 13y ago
  What a perfectly delightful piece of academic propaganda. I'm sure that I am overreacting, but the suggestion that a PhD is the first and only time that you will experience original knowledge in your life seems quite smug.
  - doktrin 13y ago
    I'm pretty far from an academic, but I do believe you are overreacting a bit. It would be absurd to even imply that a PhD was the only route to original knowledge (insert patent clerk anecdote here). However, original knowledge is one of the core tenets of an academic doctorate after all, and it's certainly one legitimate avenue towards original research and knowledge.
    - crntaylor 13y ago
      I don't know where the "Einstein had little formal education in physics" meme originated, but I'd like to kill it. Einstein was awarded a PhD before the publication of any of his seminal 1905 papers.

andydrizen 13y ago

I finished my maths PhD last year. The concept that PhD grads earn less than people who opted out of academia earlier makes a lot of sense to me. PhDs grads aren't financially driven - they are mathematically driven - to the extent of thinking about problems all day. Everyone I knew used to keep a notebook and pen by the bed because waking up in the night with an idea was so common. With this much passion, the desire to leave academia for a well-paid industry job is low.

kaeluka 13y ago

I'm so sick of economists/journalists/outsiders implying that the reason to study or, more general, to learn is income. I do it because it's giving me the chance to pick problems I find interesting, try to solve them as best as possible and learn a lot about myself along the way. Also, where I'm doing my PhD, a starting salary as a PhD student is comparable (slightly lower) with entry level programmer salaries. edit: economists -> economists/journalists/outsiders

VLM 13y ago
"I'm so sick of economists/journalists/outsiders implying the reason to" They're not implying reasons, they're reporting it. Its all about how much your culture values people with PHD / in the pipeline to get one. You may not like what your culture is saying about you, but no point in blaming the messenger. Rotate into a (hopefully) nonpersonal analogy. Say a statistician reports that your average ex-con makes 25% less than someone who hasn't been punished yet. The proper response isn't against the statistician, or that the point of prison isn't to make money, or that ex-cons used to make more money in the good old days, the point is to observe that our culture doesn't particularly value ex-cons, much less than most assume, and much worse than it used to be. Like being a black sheep? Nothin wrong with being an individual. But don't give someone a hassle for reporting the emperor has no clothes. They're reporting outcomes, not processes. Reporting actual measured price not self perceived value. IF they were morally or ethically attacking because academia leads to poverty etc etc ... you'd know. The tone of the article wouldn't be "hey guess what"
- kaeluka 13y ago
  this article is very much an opinion piece. Subtitle: "Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time". Weasel words all over the place, invented problems (at least not backed with anything): |Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things.". I'm not reading further now as I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say here.

p4bl0 13y ago

"Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time". I admit it, I didn't even read farther. Would it even come to mind to people writing this kind of article that one might do a PhD by passion and interest? If one wants to do research and teach, on one hand doing a PhD is the (only?) way to start doing this two-sides job immediately after a master and on the other hand it's the better way to get this kind of job after? And even if one doesn't want to pursue a career in academia, one could perfectly want to do some research in a first time and only after that get a job in industry. Maybe one doesn't care that he is not paid more than if he did get a job in industry right after his master, because he did something that passionated him for a few years in between? Seriously what's the point of this kind of article? A PhD is a fantastic adventure! If people want to do a PhD let them. People don't do PhD to earn more money, that's just a stupid idea. EDIT: Ah! I'm happy to see that while I wrote this comment a few others with the same idea were posted :-).

drobilla 13y ago

Someone needs to write a "why getting a job in industry is a waste of time" rebuttal to this tired argument to illustrate how ridiculous it is to evaluate everything with a single (and shallow) goal structure. After all, it typically doesn't contribute anything new or meaningful to scientific knowledge, therefore it is a waste of time (...). I guess I shouldn't expect any better from The Economist, but not everyone in the world just does whatever they can to make the most money possible, ignoring all other considerations. Assuming I'm making enough money to survive comfortably (which is essentially guaranteed with computer anything, including grad school itself), I don't care. What I get to work on, and what environment I get to work on it in, is far, far, more important. Overridingly important. This mentality (though usually not so extreme) is pretty common among math and computing people, which is probably why industry is finally starting to notice that workplace perks are very important. There are plenty of extremely talented people who'd gladly take a 50% pay cut to work in a less shitty environment...

dcalacci 13y ago
Totally on point. I don't think it's useful to compare the value of a successful PhD experience to some amount of money. This is especially true for the people who would be considering a PhD in the first place. I agree that people value the environment they work in, but I think that to the people you outline, working in a culture that values original ideas and open discourse is more important than having workplace perks like free sodas.
lucisferre 13y ago
Did you really just shit on the Economist on the whole?
mathattack 13y ago
Very true. Most programmers in NYC could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it because they don't like the abuse. Most Physics professors could get a raise going to Wall Street. They don't do it for a variety of reasons. It's about more than money. But... The core of the story is true. There's a systemic problem with the Phd market. Every school and professor has an incentive to churn out more than the market needs. Like any career choice, people need to go into this with open eyes.

gcheong 13y ago

This title hardly seems to reflect the main point of the article which is the problem of enticing more PhD candidates in order to acquire cheap research and teaching labor. The fact that they may not earn more than with a Masters was a fairly minor point.

disgruntledphd2 13y ago

Ok, so I read the article (years ago, while in the midst of a social sciences PhD, so imagine how I felt :)), and I read it again. Then, I vainly read the comments hoping that someone had made my point, but alas. So, a couple of propositions: 1) pay in academia is less than that in industry (especially in engineering and computing) 2) more PhD's stay in academia. 3) Averages are affected by extreme values. Note I'm using the mean here, as that's what all the studies do (annoyingly enough). Therefore, it would make sense that on an aggregate level, the salaries of people with PhD's would not show an increase relative to those with masters. Note that clearly this does not imply that doing a PhD is an (economic) waste of time, as it may be that PhD's, conditional on being employed in industry actually earn more than those with master's degrees. Man, I hate the mean sometimes.

dcalacci 13y ago
Yeah, it's likely that the values in the article don't really mean what they are presented to mean due to average career choices. This article would say something more meaningful if it included data only from PhD's that attempted to go into industry.

dcalacci 13y ago

I think that although this article notes some important disappointments in the way PhD students are treated, it is speaking to an audience that most likely doesn't exist. I don't think it's useful to compare the value of a successful PhD experience to some amount of money. This is especially true for the people who would be considering a PhD in the first place. Whether or not someone pursues a PhD likely comes down to the personal value they believe they will get from the process, not the projected economic benefit. On some level, it makes sense that the majority of PhD-holders do not have a starting-gate income advantage over BS holders. In recent years, a BS has become a gateway to the workforce. I think this is partly because of the ease of hiring it presents to employers. If someone is a college graduate, that serves as a soft guarantee of ability, responsiblity, and education. PhD work is by nature ill-suited to the workforce. Research positions are rare, and finding an open opportunity that speaks perfectly to a unique education will be difficult. Hiring a PhD student may only come with the 'soft guarantee' mentioned above, and little else, if the position does not align with the students' research.

suyash 13y ago

I know some programmers with no college degree at all are making same salary if not more than programmers that have phd's and the same number of years of experience.

tsotha 13y ago
As someone who has been involved in hiring (and sometimes firing) developers for a few decades now, I have come to the conclusion whatever value advanced degrees in CS have for the recipient doesn't translate into making him a more productive coder. In fact, these individuals tend to get tangled up in trying to zero in on the best solution for problems instead of the "good enough" solution that would have taken a fraction of the time. We don't pay extra for advanced CS degrees. In fact, we prefer to hire people with EE, physics, and math degrees over CS in general.

tychonoff 13y ago

I obtained a PhD in pure math 30 years ago, and promptly went into computing with no programming skills. Mathematics allowed me to see things in a more general light, appreciate the importance of elegant code, and work on interesting problems that others might find difficult (eg. graph-theoretic constructions, encryption, etc.). And it's really nice to formulate and prove your own theorems just to make your code work. Putting a $ figure on higher education is like setting the value of a hair transplant.

vlasev 13y ago
The right question to ask yourself is would have your experience been any different if you worked on a Master's in pure math instead?

michaelochurch 13y ago

Sorry, but I see bad advice here. "Waste of time"? No, it's not. Academia as a career, unless you're unambiguously one of the top minds of your generation, is a bad idea. That boat has sailed and sunk. However, a PhD in math or CS will make you eligible for higher-quality jobs more quickly than a Master's degree. There's a certain prestige that PhDs have that someone like me probably won't, and by the time you're 35+, it's almost impossible to go back, due to a combination of financial problems and admissions (you're now what is called "non-traditional"). I left a math PhD program for an internship on Wall Street. It was the right decision for me, especially because it got me on the job market before the Crash of 2008. Would I recommend that for everyone? No, I wouldn't. By the time you are 40, whether you have a working brain or not will be a function of the quality of work you did in your 20s and 30s. If you do a decade or more of stupid work-- and the work most people get assigned is that-- you'll have lost your edge. On the other hand, if you keep doing exciting stuff, you'll be one of the sharpest people out there (and running circles around young people falling flat on mistakes you've already made). For your future, interesting work matters, and a PhD is a powerful asset (though it doesn't guarantee anything) in the battle for the scarce interesting projects.

anxx 13y ago
I find myself agreeing with you on many things. I first noticed your username after the real-googler discussion and what you saw at Google is so similar to what I saw in my job in a bank. Without external or positional prestige, there is little interesting work for even the bright young staff engineers.
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  Valve figured it out: let people move around the company at will. http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/dont-look-now-but-valve-just-humiliated-your-corporate-culture/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/dont-look-now... http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/tech-companies-open-allocation-is-your-only-real-option/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/tech-companie... Anything else falls down, both because the interesting work gets hoarded and distributed as a political token, and because the best people find it easier (after 3-5 years at most) to leave then to get the work they want internally. Good companies are out there, but they tend to be slower growing. This ties in to my r/K-selection analysis of capitalism: http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1es505/corporate_work_is_the_most_elaborate/ca3od3d http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/1es505/corporate...

deleted 13y ago

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misnome 13y ago

If you are doing a PhD in order to earn more, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

smutticus 13y ago

The only thing this article convinces me of is the shallowness of The Economist. The University of Pheonix offers PhDs and so does MIT. If the University of Pheonix starts offering more PhDs each year and MIT keeps graduating the same number, then according to TFA the USA would be doing better in terms of PhDs. This is asinine reasoning and does harm to educational policy in the USA. PhD programs differ widely between schools and disciplines. If you're going to pursue a PhD do some investigation. Find out what graduates from the program are doing now. Do you want to do what they're doing? If so then consider a PhD from this program. If not then either don't do a PhD or find another program.

zmmmmm 13y ago

This doesn't surprise me at all. Most of the high paying jobs in software development have almost zero academic interest. People with PhDs are simultaneously far too overqualified academically and underqualified in terms of raw industry experience to get such jobs. One of the key reservations that I had before starting my PhD was how much it would reduce my employment options and limit my earning potential; I did it anyway. I don't know how things will work out, but I made peace with the fact that I will in all likelihood be earning less after I get my PhD than I was beforehand.

kirk21 13y ago

Depends on what topic you are working on. Very often PhD's work on projects for companies so that they have practical experience as well. (disclosure: we are working on a tool for academics: http://bohr.launchrock.com/ http://bohr.launchrock.com/).

fragsworth 13y ago

Several possible reasons why there might be too many people getting Ph.D's: 1) It's the only way to get a job in certain really interesting fields 2) Ph.D's garner massive respect from peers 3) Disrespect for industry, there's a perception of tedium, and looking down on people who are "code monkeys" or "project managers" 4) Some kind of academic momentum - it's socially and psychologically easier to stay in college/academia than to switch to industry

vlasev 13y ago
I have to disagree with you on points 1-3. They are the minor points. I think number 4 should be on top of your list. Number 4 and then number 3 together probably make up 90% of the real reason why people end up doing a phd.
- fragsworth 13y ago
  Perhaps. But the minor points are the ones most Ph.D's will say are their reasons. The last one (social/psychological) is probably the least likely to be admitted.

pgbovine 13y ago

Since people often ask me this question, here is why I personally pursued a Ph.D. in CS: http://pgbovine.net/why-pursue-PhD.htm http://pgbovine.net/why-pursue-PhD.htm YMMV, though.

cwhy 13y ago

Yes, totally agree. Please, smart people who just want to find a good job for money, do not take PhDs like no-brainers, and leave some vacancies for people who want to do some real research......