7 ms·

Wow there is a lot of hate in this thread... A lot of the arguments here seem to boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved

by blhack 13y ago

Wow there is a lot of hate in this thread... A lot of the arguments here seem to boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved it, who the hell does this KID think he is?!?" That's pretty depressing for a website that, at least originally, was to help startups talk to one another. Shame on you, hacker news. You're smarter than this. By this logic, never ever trust your data to anybody other than IBM because those dumb hacker kids don't know what they're doing! Second: "He's violating ALL KINDS of FDA regulations! [none of which I can name]" Oh is he? Because if you actually look at what he's doing, it appears that he is taking things are already approved from human consumption, and mixing them together. This would be akin to a baker taking eggs and flour and mixing them. What he's selling (although selling is a bit of an incorrect word here) is effectively a big power bar, except his comes in powerdered form. There are some hippies that sell power bars at my local coffee shop. They are terrible. What sort of advanced degrees do you suppose the hippies have? None? Possibly some experience in "baking"? Finally: this is being presented within the context of "an experiment". If you start eating soylent, and you get sick, STOP EATING IT! I'd imagine that I might have similar results if I ate nothing but the hippie vegan power bars at the coffee shop. Personally, I'll be in for whatever the $65 level is. 1) Because I think this is neat 2) I want to encourage people to experiment with the world around them. 3) I'm not an idiot, and if I start feeling sick as a result of not eating any "real" food, I'll stop eating soylent. Geesh.

DanBC 13y ago
> it appears that he is taking things are already approved from human consumption, and mixing them together. ...and then saying that the nutrients are stable for years. > A lot of the arguments here seem to boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved it, who the hell does this KID think he is?!?" Mavericks can solve big problems. They show their working; they provide a demonstration; they give a proof. Other people then pick at the work to see if there are any problems. That's how science works. We check the sample sizes, we check the stats, we check the confounding factors, we proceed cautiously. This guy has gone from self-experimentation (and caution about letting other people try it) to a full blown sales pitch full of errors and over-blown claims. The actual product might not be the TimeCube of nutrition, but the documentation so far is hopeless.
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  > This guy has gone from self-experimentation (and caution about letting other people try it) to a full blown sales pitch full of errors and over-blown claims. So it's exactly like any other campaign for supplements. But he is one of us, so apparently we cannot let him get away with it.
Afforess 13y ago
The irony of this HN discussion literally hours after the "Hacker News Is Depressing" article is so thick I could cut it with a knife.
- intended 13y ago
  The language on this product and the pitch deserve quite a bit of criticism and dollops of caution. Being fair in your assessments means that some days you will rightly give out negative assessments.
jckt 13y ago
"Finally: this is being presented within the context of "an experiment". If you start eating soylent, and you get sick, STOP EATING IT!" If you ate a McDonald's said their food was nutritionally complete, and you ate it everyday for a week, and then got sick, who is to be blamed? Of course, given McD's reputation I'd say you're to be blamed. But in this case Soylent is untested, and so far doesn't even substantiate its claims very well. And even McD's doesn't go so far as saying that their food can replace your meals (or maybe they have? I do not get that vibe though), while Soylent here is supposed to do that (the vibe I got from his blogs, at least -- this is supposedly revolutionary, no?). Although I love cooking to bits I do find Soylent interesting as a concept, but the way they've gone about doing things isn't what I'd approve of myself. And as I see it, a majority of the arguments here do not boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved it, who the hell does this KID think he is?!?" or "He's violating ALL KINDS of FDA regulations! [none of which I can name]". For the former, Soylent is simply making unsubstantiated claims, to which much smarter people have not even come up yet. If Soylent is indeed that smart, then they better have good claims to back it up. For the latter, I only saw one commenter talk about breaking FDA rules, and he was only speculating about them, and to be honest it's very likely that there's something about false advertising that they broke. But then again the FDA probably didn't expect some company claiming that they'd come up with a food to end all foods...
- wavefunction 13y ago
  I doubt that even McDonalds would advocate that you only consume McDonalds as a healthy diet
  - whaevr 13y ago
    http://goo.gl/b1dXA http://goo.gl/b1dXA Seems to suggest slightly otherwise, I remember seeing it on a commercial and just going slack jawed...WHAT?
atdrummond 13y ago
Even if they're already approved for human consumption, the end production process needs to occur in a cGMP approved facility to cover themselves legally. This isn't a cheap or quick process.
- blhack 13y ago
  What you're talking about is commonly referred to as a "certified kitchen". Not only is this process simple, but there are community available certified kitchens in most major cities that people like the aforementioned hippies use to make their granola bars. Here is the first link for "certified kitchen Phoenix": https://www.chefssharedkitchen.com/default.aspx https://www.chefssharedkitchen.com/default.aspx
  - atdrummond 13y ago
    No, it isn't the same thing - especially as the standards for most certified kitchens don't even touch the packaging requirement conditions of a cGMP facility. There's a big difference between selling food locally and taking it nationally. You don't waltz into GNC, Vitamin Shoppe or the health section at a major retailer with something made in a certified kitchen. This is why it would have been useful for these guys to consult people with actual experience in the supplement industry.
    - blhack 13y ago
      cGMP appears to apply to drug manufacturers. This isn't a drug, and isn't being marketed as a drug. It's a food. Similar to the hippie granola bars I mentioned. edit: are you saying that you have experience in this field? Enlighten me. What are they doing wrong, and how should they remedy it?
      - atdrummond 13y ago
        cGMP applies to all dietary supplements, which is what this will likely be classified as. This same process applies to Abbott Labs [owner of EAS] as well as small entities. Here is the compliance guide for small entities: http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm238182.htm http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocuments... As of 2010 all SEs must meet these requirements, regardless of firm size. Re: my experience in this field, it is all indirect - research for those interested in developing products in this area, alongside business partnerships and friendships with those who produce a wide range of dietary supplements. EDIT: I will note that they now claim the product will be produced in a FDA-approved facility. Whether this facility's certification is applicable to their specific case is not made clear but this is at least a step in the right direction. There's also the matter of labeling/ad claims with the FDA but hopefully they have the foresight to dial back the hyperbole before pushing the product to a wider audience. I would also suggest caution with what "industry experts" one works. There's quite a few less-than-desirable elements in the dietary supplement game. Case in point? The lacing of the Craze/Detonate pre-workout supplements with amphetamines just a few months ago. (http://patrickarnoldblog.com/craziness-over-craze/ http://patrickarnoldblog.com/craziness-over-craze/)
cscurmudgeon 13y ago
Except that those hippies don't raise $100k+ on the web. "Soylent is perfectly balanced and optimized for your body and lifestyle, meaning it automatically puts you at an optimal weight, makes you feel full, and improves your focus and cognition" The techniques and the wording seem snake oilish. Also, if anything those dumb hacker kids build breaks (email, web app, game) etc, they won't hurt you physically. The body is a weird mechanism: it can put up with lots of abuse and experimentation. It is also fragile at the same time. Also, where are the ingredients listed? The FAQ is hilarious. I can't believe that people are so gullible. There are mountains of research on nutrition in modern science and thousands of years of accumulated evidence from traditional practices (Indian, Chinese) etc. "But, hey, there is this magic potion which I can buy. Don't care about the ingredients. Can't be bothered to read up on the manuals for the greatest mechanism I will ever own. " Whatever happened to extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? In this case, there is a huge chance that a bunch of guys will get rich and some person will get hurt badly.
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  While this product clearly doesn't meet the risk-reward profile for you (or me), do you not enjoy the idea that a few thousand people are about start an interesting experiment? One though I had was, if Ben and Jerry are adored for making a product that is delightful but contributes to the obesity epidemic, why can we not also praise people trying to do the opposite?
  - rooshdi 13y ago
    Yea, a lot of people are already hurting themselves with their regular diets. Might as well try something new.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    I like the idea that people can use the Internet to noodle about with weird ideas. That's great. What's not great is moving from "This is me, noodling about with my own personal weird idea, and here's the information so you can join in" to "Hey! I'm going to solve world hunger, and obesity, and you can live off this with no problems no matter who you are!!! (only $200 per month)" Rest assured, if Ben and Jerry had a crowdfunding website and claimed their food was balanced for optimal nutrition I'd be very critical of them too.
nopinsight 13y ago
> "Soylent is perfectly balanced and optimized for your body and lifestyle, meaning it automatically puts you at an optimal weight, makes you feel full, and improves your focus and cognition" If he tempers his claims and recommends it as a time-saving meal, the danger to consumers should be mitigated and the reactions here would likely be a lot less violent. Say, "Use well-balanced Soylent for 1 to 2 meals a day to save yourself a great deal of time. You should have varied diet in other meals to ensure even more complete nutritional composition for your body."
djt 13y ago
None of the people on the team have a nutrition background. That makes no sense to me. The body is complicated and stopping eating this diet if you feel sick doesn't necessarily mean that you won't have ongoing health problems even when you go back to a normal diet.
alan_cx 13y ago
Isn't calling critics "haters" merely another form of hate? "Finally: this is being presented within the context of "an experiment". If you start eating soylent, and you get sick, STOP EATING IT!" Really? So if a mega corp drugs company just handed out experimental products to who ever wanted it with out and controls what so ever, you'd not be worried by that? It would be a national, perhaps international scandal. But that doesn't bother you because it is "neat"? Yeah, sure entourage people to experiment, I agree. Make your own goo, and eat it yourself, fine. But encouraging people to participate in unregulated medical experiments is reckless and negligent.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > Yeah, sure entourage people to experiment, I agree. Make your own goo, and eat it yourself, fine. But encouraging people to participate in unregulated medical experiments is reckless and negligent. I'm a harsh critic of soylent, but even I'd be fine with it if they said "try this at your own risk! here's the research we're using. Here's what our critics say."
d23 13y ago
This is clearly parody. This is clearly parody. This is clearly parody. I am genuinely surprised that the people of HN can not see that. I expected the conversation to at least be about whether it was parody vs. not, not about whether it was healthy or not.
- alex_c 13y ago
  A few of us are discussing that, at least... much, much further down the page (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5747100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5747100).
tripzilch 13y ago
> What he's selling (although selling is a bit of an incorrect word here) is effectively a big power bar, except his comes in powerdered form. There are some hippies that sell power bars at my local coffee shop. They are terrible. do these hippies claim you can replace your entire diet with just those power bars? hey I'm all for this project btw, and really not having to deal with preparing food a few times a day sounds ideal (I do love cooking, but I have a lot of other things on my plate (haha) recently). one thing I simply do not understand is how this guy went from being a single dude experimenting with food replacements on himself, to expanding his team with five other people, and NONE of them has a background in nutrition, medicine or even biology. why? sure you can figure out this stuff by reading up on it, looking things up, but someone who has studied even slightly related subjects for 6 years knows things that you don't even know you didn't know, or know you might want to look up something on a particular subject that you would never have considered. that's what education is useful for, crazy idea I know. I'm not saying doing this with only technical computer and marketing people on your team is going to make you fail automatically, but he is definitely cutting himself short on some valuable knowledge and ideas.

by blhack 13y ago

DanBC 13y ago

> it appears that he is taking things are already approved from human consumption, and mixing them together. ...and then saying that the nutrients are stable for years. > A lot of the arguments here seem to boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved it, who the hell does this KID think he is?!?" Mavericks can solve big problems. They show their working; they provide a demonstration; they give a proof. Other people then pick at the work to see if there are any problems. That's how science works. We check the sample sizes, we check the stats, we check the confounding factors, we proceed cautiously. This guy has gone from self-experimentation (and caution about letting other people try it) to a full blown sales pitch full of errors and over-blown claims. The actual product might not be the TimeCube of nutrition, but the documentation so far is hopeless.

_pmf_ 13y ago
> This guy has gone from self-experimentation (and caution about letting other people try it) to a full blown sales pitch full of errors and over-blown claims. So it's exactly like any other campaign for supplements. But he is one of us, so apparently we cannot let him get away with it.

Afforess 13y ago

The irony of this HN discussion literally hours after the "Hacker News Is Depressing" article is so thick I could cut it with a knife.

intended 13y ago
The language on this product and the pitch deserve quite a bit of criticism and dollops of caution. Being fair in your assessments means that some days you will rightly give out negative assessments.

jckt 13y ago

"Finally: this is being presented within the context of "an experiment". If you start eating soylent, and you get sick, STOP EATING IT!" If you ate a McDonald's said their food was nutritionally complete, and you ate it everyday for a week, and then got sick, who is to be blamed? Of course, given McD's reputation I'd say you're to be blamed. But in this case Soylent is untested, and so far doesn't even substantiate its claims very well. And even McD's doesn't go so far as saying that their food can replace your meals (or maybe they have? I do not get that vibe though), while Soylent here is supposed to do that (the vibe I got from his blogs, at least -- this is supposedly revolutionary, no?). Although I love cooking to bits I do find Soylent interesting as a concept, but the way they've gone about doing things isn't what I'd approve of myself. And as I see it, a majority of the arguments here do not boil down to "Much smarter people are working on this and they haven't solved it, who the hell does this KID think he is?!?" or "He's violating ALL KINDS of FDA regulations! [none of which I can name]". For the former, Soylent is simply making unsubstantiated claims, to which much smarter people have not even come up yet. If Soylent is indeed that smart, then they better have good claims to back it up. For the latter, I only saw one commenter talk about breaking FDA rules, and he was only speculating about them, and to be honest it's very likely that there's something about false advertising that they broke. But then again the FDA probably didn't expect some company claiming that they'd come up with a food to end all foods...

wavefunction 13y ago
I doubt that even McDonalds would advocate that you only consume McDonalds as a healthy diet
- whaevr 13y ago
  http://goo.gl/b1dXA http://goo.gl/b1dXA Seems to suggest slightly otherwise, I remember seeing it on a commercial and just going slack jawed...WHAT?

atdrummond 13y ago

Even if they're already approved for human consumption, the end production process needs to occur in a cGMP approved facility to cover themselves legally. This isn't a cheap or quick process.

blhack 13y ago
What you're talking about is commonly referred to as a "certified kitchen". Not only is this process simple, but there are community available certified kitchens in most major cities that people like the aforementioned hippies use to make their granola bars. Here is the first link for "certified kitchen Phoenix": https://www.chefssharedkitchen.com/default.aspx https://www.chefssharedkitchen.com/default.aspx
- atdrummond 13y ago
  No, it isn't the same thing - especially as the standards for most certified kitchens don't even touch the packaging requirement conditions of a cGMP facility. There's a big difference between selling food locally and taking it nationally. You don't waltz into GNC, Vitamin Shoppe or the health section at a major retailer with something made in a certified kitchen. This is why it would have been useful for these guys to consult people with actual experience in the supplement industry.
  - blhack 13y ago
    cGMP appears to apply to drug manufacturers. This isn't a drug, and isn't being marketed as a drug. It's a food. Similar to the hippie granola bars I mentioned. edit: are you saying that you have experience in this field? Enlighten me. What are they doing wrong, and how should they remedy it?
    - atdrummond 13y ago
      cGMP applies to all dietary supplements, which is what this will likely be classified as. This same process applies to Abbott Labs [owner of EAS] as well as small entities. Here is the compliance guide for small entities: http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm238182.htm http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocuments... As of 2010 all SEs must meet these requirements, regardless of firm size. Re: my experience in this field, it is all indirect - research for those interested in developing products in this area, alongside business partnerships and friendships with those who produce a wide range of dietary supplements. EDIT: I will note that they now claim the product will be produced in a FDA-approved facility. Whether this facility's certification is applicable to their specific case is not made clear but this is at least a step in the right direction. There's also the matter of labeling/ad claims with the FDA but hopefully they have the foresight to dial back the hyperbole before pushing the product to a wider audience. I would also suggest caution with what "industry experts" one works. There's quite a few less-than-desirable elements in the dietary supplement game. Case in point? The lacing of the Craze/Detonate pre-workout supplements with amphetamines just a few months ago. (http://patrickarnoldblog.com/craziness-over-craze/ http://patrickarnoldblog.com/craziness-over-craze/)

cscurmudgeon 13y ago

Except that those hippies don't raise $100k+ on the web. "Soylent is perfectly balanced and optimized for your body and lifestyle, meaning it automatically puts you at an optimal weight, makes you feel full, and improves your focus and cognition" The techniques and the wording seem snake oilish. Also, if anything those dumb hacker kids build breaks (email, web app, game) etc, they won't hurt you physically. The body is a weird mechanism: it can put up with lots of abuse and experimentation. It is also fragile at the same time. Also, where are the ingredients listed? The FAQ is hilarious. I can't believe that people are so gullible. There are mountains of research on nutrition in modern science and thousands of years of accumulated evidence from traditional practices (Indian, Chinese) etc. "But, hey, there is this magic potion which I can buy. Don't care about the ingredients. Can't be bothered to read up on the manuals for the greatest mechanism I will ever own. " Whatever happened to extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? In this case, there is a huge chance that a bunch of guys will get rich and some person will get hurt badly.

jcampbell1 13y ago
While this product clearly doesn't meet the risk-reward profile for you (or me), do you not enjoy the idea that a few thousand people are about start an interesting experiment? One though I had was, if Ben and Jerry are adored for making a product that is delightful but contributes to the obesity epidemic, why can we not also praise people trying to do the opposite?
- rooshdi 13y ago
  Yea, a lot of people are already hurting themselves with their regular diets. Might as well try something new.
- DanBC 13y ago
  I like the idea that people can use the Internet to noodle about with weird ideas. That's great. What's not great is moving from "This is me, noodling about with my own personal weird idea, and here's the information so you can join in" to "Hey! I'm going to solve world hunger, and obesity, and you can live off this with no problems no matter who you are!!! (only $200 per month)" Rest assured, if Ben and Jerry had a crowdfunding website and claimed their food was balanced for optimal nutrition I'd be very critical of them too.

nopinsight 13y ago

> "Soylent is perfectly balanced and optimized for your body and lifestyle, meaning it automatically puts you at an optimal weight, makes you feel full, and improves your focus and cognition" If he tempers his claims and recommends it as a time-saving meal, the danger to consumers should be mitigated and the reactions here would likely be a lot less violent. Say, "Use well-balanced Soylent for 1 to 2 meals a day to save yourself a great deal of time. You should have varied diet in other meals to ensure even more complete nutritional composition for your body."

djt 13y ago

None of the people on the team have a nutrition background. That makes no sense to me. The body is complicated and stopping eating this diet if you feel sick doesn't necessarily mean that you won't have ongoing health problems even when you go back to a normal diet.

alan_cx 13y ago

Isn't calling critics "haters" merely another form of hate? "Finally: this is being presented within the context of "an experiment". If you start eating soylent, and you get sick, STOP EATING IT!" Really? So if a mega corp drugs company just handed out experimental products to who ever wanted it with out and controls what so ever, you'd not be worried by that? It would be a national, perhaps international scandal. But that doesn't bother you because it is "neat"? Yeah, sure entourage people to experiment, I agree. Make your own goo, and eat it yourself, fine. But encouraging people to participate in unregulated medical experiments is reckless and negligent.

DanBC 13y ago
> Yeah, sure entourage people to experiment, I agree. Make your own goo, and eat it yourself, fine. But encouraging people to participate in unregulated medical experiments is reckless and negligent. I'm a harsh critic of soylent, but even I'd be fine with it if they said "try this at your own risk! here's the research we're using. Here's what our critics say."

d23 13y ago

This is clearly parody. This is clearly parody. This is clearly parody. I am genuinely surprised that the people of HN can not see that. I expected the conversation to at least be about whether it was parody vs. not, not about whether it was healthy or not.

alex_c 13y ago
A few of us are discussing that, at least... much, much further down the page (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5747100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5747100).

tripzilch 13y ago

> What he's selling (although selling is a bit of an incorrect word here) is effectively a big power bar, except his comes in powerdered form. There are some hippies that sell power bars at my local coffee shop. They are terrible. do these hippies claim you can replace your entire diet with just those power bars? hey I'm all for this project btw, and really not having to deal with preparing food a few times a day sounds ideal (I do love cooking, but I have a lot of other things on my plate (haha) recently). one thing I simply do not understand is how this guy went from being a single dude experimenting with food replacements on himself, to expanding his team with five other people, and NONE of them has a background in nutrition, medicine or even biology. why? sure you can figure out this stuff by reading up on it, looking things up, but someone who has studied even slightly related subjects for 6 years knows things that you don't even know you didn't know, or know you might want to look up something on a particular subject that you would never have considered. that's what education is useful for, crazy idea I know. I'm not saying doing this with only technical computer and marketing people on your team is going to make you fail automatically, but he is definitely cutting himself short on some valuable knowledge and ideas.