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School experiment finds cress won’t germinate near router (Danish)

• jvilalta 13y ago
  Adverse Influence of Radio Frequency Background on Trembling Aspen Seedlings: Preliminary Observations http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijfr/2010/836278/ http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijfr/2010/836278/
  • ricardobeat 13y ago
    That's really interesting. The RF shielded group evidenced more vigorous growth, producing 74% more total leader length and 60% more leaf area than the mock-shielded group, though the number of leaves produced by both groups was nearly the same. And Leaves on active leaders in the shielded group were substantially free of leaf tissue lesions (Figure 7), but unshielded and mock-shielded leaves were all affected to some extent by leaf tissue necrosis (Figure 8) Would be nice if they had analyzed the spectrum to identify roughly what frequencies/equipment this area is exposed to. Just like in the electronics-on-airplanes issue, it concerns and wonders me that there isn't more research being done in such basic areas.
  • mayank 13y ago
    Google "Hindawi journal scam". These guys regularly send me spam soliciting publications, and are most likely a thinly veiled paper factory. I wouldn't trust a thing I read in a Hindawi "journal".
• ColinWright 13y ago
  Google translate: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dr.dk%2FNyheder%2FIndland%2F2013%2F05%2F16%2F131324.htm http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js...
  • jriordan 13y ago
    there's an English version: http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/2013/05/17/130946.htm http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/2013/05/17/1309...
• atdrummond 13y ago
  How did they control for factors other than the router? Did they again attempt germination when the 2 devices were completely off? I'm not convinced when entirely separate rooms were used.
  • abraininavat 13y ago
    Yeah, I'm sure school experiments have found all kinds of crazy things. Can we wait to post this until someone replicates the results?
    • egwor 13y ago
      I'd love to repeat them, but then I'd be without internet for a week or two. Decisions, decisions! On a serious note; how different can this be from the research for mobile phone interfering with nature??
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    • johansch 13y ago
      Why should we only discuss replicated/confirmed results of scientific experiments?
      • TeMPOraL 13y ago
        The best way to discuss those experiments would be to replicate and/or confirm them.
        • johansch 13y ago
          You can only replicate an experiment if you know about it...
          • johansch 13y ago
            Expanding on this: I think mainstream media (reaching billions) should only publicize replicated scientific experiments. HN (reaching tens to hundreds of thousands) is not exactly mainstream though, at least not yet.
• M4v3R 13y ago
  A fun experiment if you use an USB WiFi stick - put it on an USB extender cable and lay on any plant in your home. After few days the plant will most probably die in this place.
  • Tichy 13y ago
    Why?
    • M4v3R 13y ago
      Because it's basically a small microwave, at 2.4Ghz. Its harmless from a distance, but if it's very near the antenna, it will toast the flower.
      • johnchristopher 13y ago
        I frequently put my laptop on my chest when slouching in the sofa. Does it have the same harmful effects ?
        • sliverstorm 13y ago
          If the method of action is the same as a microwave, it is just heating you. Human bodies are good at handling extra heat, so I'm not sure that warrants concern.
          • saalweachter 13y ago
            http://wap.nytimes.com/2013/05/06/science/eleanor-r-adair-microwave-safety-researcher-dies-at-86.html?from=obituaries http://wap.nytimes.com/2013/05/06/science/eleanor-r-adair-mi... Dr. Adair was indisputably an innovator in studying microwave radiation, work she began in the mid-1970s while a fellow at the John B. Pierce Laboratory in New Haven. First with squirrel monkeys and then with human volunteers, she placed subjects in a chamber into which she released relatively high levels of microwaves for about 45 minutes, followed by a cool-down period. She focused on what impact the heat generated by microwaves might have — and she said she never found much more than perspiration. She said the monkeys and the people mostly enjoyed the experience. “Particularly if the environment is cool, they love it when the field comes on,” she told The Times. She said: “It is very easy to sense it and it feels good. If they are in a warm environment, and the field is strong they may start to sweat and they may feel quite uncomfortable. They always have an option of getting out of the chamber at any time, saying, ‘I’ve had enough.’ ”
• Nursie 13y ago
  Yeah, just like that experiment with the 'evil' microwaved water I bet.
• dnautics 13y ago
  One suspicion I've always have is that high frequency radio waves can induce microcurrents in supercoiled DNA. It's been speculated by the Barton lab¹ that the base excision repair error-correction mechanism actively surveys DNA by injecting electrical current into the DNA and 'searching' for lesions which disrupt the conductivity of DNA. Some circumstantial evidence for this is that a major "base excision repair" component has a redox-active iron-sulfur cluster, and at least one study shows that the oxidation state of this iron-sulfur cluster can change how well it attaches to DNA. The mantra that we always hear is that if the radiation isn't ionizing it's harmless. While this mechanism for worrying about non-ionizing radiation doesn't directly cause harm, it's not quite 'harmless' either. This mechanism would render quite a few results not surprising. Biologically, there are many stages where not having DNA error correction could be more catastrophic than usual. It makes sense that seed germination is one of these; temporarily decreased sperm count in human males would be another. The experiment to check this hypothesis is pretty obvious, and I'll probably be doing it sometime in the next few years, especially if I can get my nonprofit research org. up and running. Edit: Footnote [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Barton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Barton
  • cyanoacry 13y ago
    I find this pretty unlikely, for the same reason that nanobots have difficulty communicating: it's hard to make an antenna at those size scales that can receive a signal, much less contribute to chemical-level energy changes. At the point where the wavelength of the EM radiation is small enough to get detected by DNA-scale antennas, it's probably already classified as ionizing radiation.
    • dnautics 13y ago
      DNA molecules are pretty long. And this isn't a Nyquist law issue (I don't think) because there isn't a need to transmit coherent information. You just need to apply enough of a voltage to kick over the redox state of two iron atoms (midpoint potential ~ -20 mV) every so often.
  • dnautics 13y ago
• bifrost 13y ago
  I find it hard to believe that the school built a faraday cage for this experiment :)
  • X4 13y ago
    Relevance? You, plants and animals don't live in a Faraday cage, so this would distort the results. But I agree that if they were not school children, but grown up, then they should do the same test but additionally try it again using a faraday cage.
    • jlgreco 13y ago
      It wouldn't "distort" the results. It would enable you to get results at all. The number of likely uncontrolled results in this "experiment" means that it was worthless for anything other than getting children excited about science.
      • X4 13y ago
        As said I agree that an "additional" test with a faraday cage should have been done, but not by the children. I expect the scientists to come up with that idea. Having too high expectations from children is counterproductive.
• lifeformed 13y ago
  This is pretty off topic, but this reminds me of a weird thing that happened to me: Over the weekend, I rearranged the furniture in my computer room in my home, and had just settled in to this new layout. Everything was working fine: my computer and my internet connection were all good to go. I booted up Counter-strike to play some rounds. However, the in-game server browser failed to find any servers. I closed the game and checked my internet connection: everything was fine. Maybe the master server was down? I went to bed. The next day, I tried it again, and the same thing happened. No one else reported an issue. I tried playing TF2, and the same thing happened: all online functionality was nonexistent. It seemed like it must be a router configuration issue, but I hadn't messed with that in a while, and my games all worked fine last week. I was able to play the same games on other computers without any issue. But as soon as I loaded up a game on my primary computer, I noticed the internet would go out for every system in my room. Maybe it was something with Source engine games? I tried a completely different game (some 2D indie puzzle game), and the same thing happened. Every game! The internet would go out, and turn back on as soon as I closed the game. It wasn't Steam either: non-Steam games did the same. And it ONLY happened with games. Almost every other application worked fine. I was about to reformat, but I first tried booting into a separate OS on my computer and the SAME THING happened. Finally, I noticed it failed with Unity and also with Photoshop. These programs all had one thing in common: they were GPU accelerated. How did that affect anything? Well, it only started happening after I rearranged my furniture. I had moved my router to sit on top of my computer. I moved it away by 1 foot, and then everything worked fine. It turns out, my laptop has Nvidia Optimus, which toggles between the discrete GPU and integrated graphics chip. When I launched a GPU accelerated program, my GPU would kick in, and I guess its operation emitted some electromagnetic field that interfered with my router.
  • brador 13y ago
    It might be the fan. Do more experiments and report back. You can also purchase Em field detectors or make one yourself.
    • lifeformed 13y ago
      What do you think the fan would do?
• danmaz74 13y ago
  This is very interesting, but I would wait for some confirmations. If I read correctly, they didn't even repeat the experiment themselves.
• lifeguard 13y ago
  Every time my aunt's back hurts the Dow Jones average drops 3.7 points! Is she a stock genius?
• saurik 13y ago
  When I was in 8th grade I did an experiment that found that mold grew better nearer a cathode ray tube computer monitor. I had, however, in retrospect, failed to control for the CRT monitor being a source of heat and light (if not much). I also did not verify it wasn't just due to the one side if the table being closer to something unrelated in my basement. I did very well in the science fair anyway (I have a plaque somewhere, and I think I had gotten it for the state-wide level), as for a "school experiment" the competition bar is quite low, and there are a ton of other factors on which you are being judged than "scientific accuracy". This kind of research is really no better than the people reporting homemade experiments constantly whom we often label "crackpots".
  • omd 13y ago
    Here's a crazy thought. What if they use this opportunity to teach kids about the processes of scientific discovery and how it is sometimes based on pure chance. What if they then teach those kids about the scientific method and how to conduct a controlled experiment. Even if the story turns out to be a dud I guarantee the experience would make the students much more excited about science than growing some cress in a window sill. Or we could explain how a bunch of scientists are crackpots for even thinking such a thing.
    • saurik 13y ago
      I feel like you are arguing with me. I am saying this because a some people are commenting here about what the ramifications of this discovery is; others, asking "serious" questions about the quality of the research, as if they should have taken certain things into account. I am pointing out that this isn't the right context for that analysis. Also, that education is not news to post here in the first place. This is not a website where children are learning about science. There are tons of "discoveries" made as school experiments: I don't expect to see them on the front page of Hacker News (unless, like, there is some kind of serious interest in the larger science community). ;P
      • jacquesm 13y ago
        > This is not a website where children are learning about science. On a website this size such assumptions are almost invariably false.
• Zigurd 13y ago
  The articles don't say if the experimenters knew which router was powered, for one thing. There is way too much scope for bogusness here.
• losethos 13y ago
  Pain makes one in a foul mood. God says... lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered. 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: 9:3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them: 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good. 9:5 And the Lord GOD of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
• antirez 13y ago
  Any suggestion about relatively cheap equipment to measure the RF field with some degree of accuracy? I found many companies selling this stuff but can't judge easily what's good and what not. I'm interested in the 900mhz - 3Ghz range.
  • X4 13y ago
    There was some research in Visualizing WiFi with Light. Here are the results: http://www.openculture.com/2011/03/visualizing_wifi_signals_with_light.html http://www.openculture.com/2011/03/visualizing_wifi_signals_...
• varjag 13y ago
  A friend of mine did his duty service at an old radar site. When they were bored they'd send a pulse through antenna and the birds sitting on it would flip dead. Granted the energies involved are not comparable, but a router is active much of the time. Also remember you deal with inverse square law here, the effect likely fades out quickly with distance.
• bborud 13y ago
  It could be as simple as the plastics in the router enclosure giving off fumes :-) (No reason to get your panties in a bunch before the results can be reproduced and a cause has been isolated)
• X4 13y ago
  I accidentally developed a new kind of polymer when I was in the 7th class. It becomes thin as skin when wet and hard as hard-plastic when dry plus it smelled like menthol. The interesting part was that I didn't use oil or something else, but only minerals available in a cheap chemistry-kit. My chemistry teacher was excited to find that out, showed it to my class, but didn't understand how it worked.
• icoder 13y ago
  "two routers emitting roughly the same type of radiation as an ordinary mobile phone." Wait, what?