6 ms·

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days.

This situation is actually very simple, don't let it feel overcomplicated: Tell them you need an actual salary and actual health insurance in the next 30 days. If the venture can pay you to keep at it, that's great. Otherwise you'll have to start looking around for a real job in a couple of weeks. Even the most brick-and-mortar type of businessperson will completely understand this. Stick to your schedule. It will either work out or it won't. If it doesn't, no hard feelings.

peteretep 13y ago
I did something very similar, but with different parameters. You'd have better off saying "90 days", but you've been sticking it out a while now. If you're anything like me, this incredibly stressful time will end up materially pushing your career forward in the future.
geoffw8 13y ago
Great way to think about this. These kinds of problems can feel SO huge... until that first pay cheque hits. Then life becomes simple again Source: been there, lots
- shortstuffsushi 13y ago
  Well, right, but what if that payment never comes? At what point do you say, "I will not make money here, I need to get a job to support myself?" When the company closes its doors (supposing it even has an office)?
  - geoffw8 13y ago
    Hey - my comment was based on him having that epiphany and getting a job!
msrpotus 13y ago
Just to echo this: I was in a similar situation and did this (though without asking for healthcare) and it was the best decision I made throughout the course of the experience. Everything crystalized pretty quickly that they didn't have a plan to pay me and I was able to get out without burning through the rest of my bank account.
ritchiea 13y ago
Indeed. People generally understand when you tell them "I can't afford to live without a paycheck." Ignore the rest of the things you're worried about, don't say anything about serious doubts or that you think they are idiots, just let them know it's not a viable for you to continue to work without pay. Keep it simple.
neltnerb 13y ago
To not comment on the rest, since it's highly dependent on your personal situation: "I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now." This is a very dangerous way to think about it. This is your life you're investing here. Perhaps to break it down to oversimplified but still valuable math: (probability of success)*(personal outcome) = expected outcome If you think they have a 10% chance of succeeding, but if they do they'll be legitimately worth $10M of which you'll get 30%, then the expectation value is $300k. Do that calculation based on the numbers that you personally feel are correct. Compare to what you'd be making doing something else. Take into account that you've already worked on it for a year and a half, which is probably at least worth $100k. More since you may never get it. If the project can't even meet that minimal standard for being worth your time, then you're unlikely to even make what you deserve for your time, much less receive a reward commensurate with your risk.
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  More succinctly: Learn to recognize a sunk cost. [1]: http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs
  - eaglej 13y ago
    Better yet, here's a very relevant piece that tells you how to overcome the mental impediment to rationally considering situations with sunk costs involved. Basically, think about what you have to gain by changing things, rather than what you've already lost. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/how-to-walk-away/275833/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/how-to-wal...
- danielweber 13y ago
  I remember working at a start-up and realizing what a huge portion of my personal wealth was stuck in it, and that I couldn't just quit. Eventually I did quit, and everything was okay. If this is your second job ever, then it's natural that you feel like this job represents a huge portion of your life's work. That's only true in that it represents your life's work up to that point. When you are 60, this will be something you see as a tiny portion of your work life. Eventually when you list the things you are most technically proud of (which you said you are), this probably won't make the top 5, because you will make so many more awesome things over the course of your career.
pud 13y ago
Disagree. If you've truly lost faith in the founders and business -- which you have -- you should leave now & cut your losses. It's not going to work out, regardless of salary. As for how to make money after you leave -- get a job or find consulting work. Then jump back into starting a business when you're ready again.
- unreal37 13y ago
  Pud knows an f'd company when he sees one. ;)
- nashequilibrium 13y ago
  I agree totally but i will add one more option based on this quote "I believe in our product, but I don't believe in our business model." If this is the case and assuming u have nailed a customer pain point down since its been 15 months, i would suggest that you leave and execute the same idea with the business model you believe will work. If you and the VC are on the same page and these guys don't have much tech experience then they are clearly failing to execute and no salary, health insurance, free lunch is going to make you happy. Since at the end, they are still driving you into a ditch. If no other VC's want to bite then scrap the idea. Since you already are doing consulting on the side, i think you may be able to squeeze 3 months in on trying to get funding, just make every action Fast, Focused and Fundamental to your objectives. Godspeed!
  - owenfi 13y ago
    It seems like you would be opening yourself up to lawsuits if you take this course of action and are successful. Not that I might not do it if I believed in something, but I'd want to be very careful. If you're out of money it might be hard to pull this off as I've heard seeking funding is a full time job (or two, as your cofounders have shown) so the product has to be mostly good to go (for at least the time being) if that's going to work. Using the product you already built with company funds is almost definitely off limits (IANL), so I'm not quite sure how that strategy could be feasible.
    - 13y ago
desireco42 13y ago
I believe this is excellent advice you got here. Nothing much to add but that you take your girlfriend and go somewhere for at least a week or so, to clear your mind. Go to some national park or something like that where you would be disconnected, talk to her and not just about you, hear what she is seeing and thinking. I am pretty certain when you come back you would know much better what to do.
jakejake 13y ago
The bottom line is that we all have bills to pay. Get a consulting or contract job and continue with the venture in your spare time until either the founders raise enough investment money to pay your salary or you decide they won't be able to pull it off. Be open and honest - just tell them that you need a salary. Going a year and a half with no salary is not something anybody has a right to expect from you unless you're already wealthy.
jneal 13y ago
I've actually been in a very similar situation. I asked for the salary knowing they couldn't pay it and figuring it was my easiest way out without feeling like the bad guy. Hey, I just needed money and they couldn't pay it...Low and behold they unexpectedly accepted my offer. Good news, right? Not really...I wasn't happy, and after getting the salary I felt even more stuck than I was before. Get out while you still can.

peteretep 13y ago

I did something very similar, but with different parameters. You'd have better off saying "90 days", but you've been sticking it out a while now. If you're anything like me, this incredibly stressful time will end up materially pushing your career forward in the future.

geoffw8 13y ago

Great way to think about this. These kinds of problems can feel SO huge... until that first pay cheque hits. Then life becomes simple again Source: been there, lots

shortstuffsushi 13y ago
Well, right, but what if that payment never comes? At what point do you say, "I will not make money here, I need to get a job to support myself?" When the company closes its doors (supposing it even has an office)?
- geoffw8 13y ago
  Hey - my comment was based on him having that epiphany and getting a job!

msrpotus 13y ago

Just to echo this: I was in a similar situation and did this (though without asking for healthcare) and it was the best decision I made throughout the course of the experience. Everything crystalized pretty quickly that they didn't have a plan to pay me and I was able to get out without burning through the rest of my bank account.

ritchiea 13y ago

Indeed. People generally understand when you tell them "I can't afford to live without a paycheck." Ignore the rest of the things you're worried about, don't say anything about serious doubts or that you think they are idiots, just let them know it's not a viable for you to continue to work without pay. Keep it simple.

neltnerb 13y ago

To not comment on the rest, since it's highly dependent on your personal situation: "I feel as though I've invested too much time and energy to bail now." This is a very dangerous way to think about it. This is your life you're investing here. Perhaps to break it down to oversimplified but still valuable math: (probability of success)*(personal outcome) = expected outcome If you think they have a 10% chance of succeeding, but if they do they'll be legitimately worth $10M of which you'll get 30%, then the expectation value is $300k. Do that calculation based on the numbers that you personally feel are correct. Compare to what you'd be making doing something else. Take into account that you've already worked on it for a year and a half, which is probably at least worth $100k. More since you may never get it. If the project can't even meet that minimal standard for being worth your time, then you're unlikely to even make what you deserve for your time, much less receive a reward commensurate with your risk.

benjamincburns 13y ago
More succinctly: Learn to recognize a sunk cost. [1]: http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs
- eaglej 13y ago
  Better yet, here's a very relevant piece that tells you how to overcome the mental impediment to rationally considering situations with sunk costs involved. Basically, think about what you have to gain by changing things, rather than what you've already lost. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/how-to-walk-away/275833/ http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/how-to-wal...
danielweber 13y ago
I remember working at a start-up and realizing what a huge portion of my personal wealth was stuck in it, and that I couldn't just quit. Eventually I did quit, and everything was okay. If this is your second job ever, then it's natural that you feel like this job represents a huge portion of your life's work. That's only true in that it represents your life's work up to that point. When you are 60, this will be something you see as a tiny portion of your work life. Eventually when you list the things you are most technically proud of (which you said you are), this probably won't make the top 5, because you will make so many more awesome things over the course of your career.

pud 13y ago

Disagree. If you've truly lost faith in the founders and business -- which you have -- you should leave now & cut your losses. It's not going to work out, regardless of salary. As for how to make money after you leave -- get a job or find consulting work. Then jump back into starting a business when you're ready again.

unreal37 13y ago
Pud knows an f'd company when he sees one. ;)
nashequilibrium 13y ago
I agree totally but i will add one more option based on this quote "I believe in our product, but I don't believe in our business model." If this is the case and assuming u have nailed a customer pain point down since its been 15 months, i would suggest that you leave and execute the same idea with the business model you believe will work. If you and the VC are on the same page and these guys don't have much tech experience then they are clearly failing to execute and no salary, health insurance, free lunch is going to make you happy. Since at the end, they are still driving you into a ditch. If no other VC's want to bite then scrap the idea. Since you already are doing consulting on the side, i think you may be able to squeeze 3 months in on trying to get funding, just make every action Fast, Focused and Fundamental to your objectives. Godspeed!
- owenfi 13y ago
  It seems like you would be opening yourself up to lawsuits if you take this course of action and are successful. Not that I might not do it if I believed in something, but I'd want to be very careful. If you're out of money it might be hard to pull this off as I've heard seeking funding is a full time job (or two, as your cofounders have shown) so the product has to be mostly good to go (for at least the time being) if that's going to work. Using the product you already built with company funds is almost definitely off limits (IANL), so I'm not quite sure how that strategy could be feasible.
  - 13y ago

desireco42 13y ago

I believe this is excellent advice you got here. Nothing much to add but that you take your girlfriend and go somewhere for at least a week or so, to clear your mind. Go to some national park or something like that where you would be disconnected, talk to her and not just about you, hear what she is seeing and thinking. I am pretty certain when you come back you would know much better what to do.

jakejake 13y ago

The bottom line is that we all have bills to pay. Get a consulting or contract job and continue with the venture in your spare time until either the founders raise enough investment money to pay your salary or you decide they won't be able to pull it off. Be open and honest - just tell them that you need a salary. Going a year and a half with no salary is not something anybody has a right to expect from you unless you're already wealthy.

jneal 13y ago

I've actually been in a very similar situation. I asked for the salary knowing they couldn't pay it and figuring it was my easiest way out without feeling like the bad guy. Hey, I just needed money and they couldn't pay it...Low and behold they unexpectedly accepted my offer. Good news, right? Not really...I wasn't happy, and after getting the salary I felt even more stuck than I was before. Get out while you still can.