5 ms·

Part 2 of this story: http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437619970/etsy-accused-me-of-not-assembling-my-synths-by-hand http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/5043761997

by jrajav 13y ago

Part 2 of this story: http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437619970/etsy-accused-me-of-not-assembling-my-synths-by-hand http://wtfbyrne.tumblr.com/post/50437619970/etsy-accused-me-... Submitted at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5708307 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5708307

ricardobeat 13y ago
I'm kind of siding with Etsy here, despite thinking he is being honest. The information provided is not enough to tell if he isn't just buying ready-made products and etching his logo on the back. It's a tough judgment, really, at what threshold does something qualify as hand-made?
- fr0sty 13y ago
  And who's to say that every other item on that site was not made by some sweatshop that churns out crates of knick-knacks? This is a "featured item" on the front page: http://www.etsy.com/listing/88946705/tomato-art-print-lovely-vegetables?ref=fp_treasury_1 http://www.etsy.com/listing/88946705/tomato-art-print-lovely... Does the creator need to send documentation of them creating the original? Why not?
  - MBCook 13y ago
    But in that case, the art was an original design (supposedly). They don't need a sweatshop, it's just a run of prints. What's happening here is more like he made a stencil from someone else's art and says it should count as hand made because he paints each canvas using the stencil and puts it in a generic frame he made.
- droithomme 13y ago
  I agree there's not enough information to determine how much he is contributing. I see some wood and a soldering iron, but I don't see evidence he is populating the boards himself, or his jig for making the finger joints. He might be but he doesn't show a set up sufficient to determine. I'm also skeptical of the claims that there are trade secrets involved in assembling known designs and boards made by others and putting together a rectangular case. The Bob Moog factory in Asheville has glass windows around their factory floor and customers are invited to watch their entire assembly process. Does Moog have more protection worthy trade secrets in their assembly methods than these designs? Probably. If he is putting fully assembled boards into a premade box, is it hand made? In his post it sounds like he is saying he designs the front panel layout and has it cut and stenciled at a facility somewhere, and no doubt he screws in the potentiometers, attaches the knobs, and solders the leads. He says the boards come from China and are designed by someone else. He doesn't say if he populates the boards or if they come finished, ready for lead attachment. If lead attachment and the panel layout this is the extent of his work, perhaps etsy might not consider that truly handmade. Or perhaps they want more disclosure about how much is done. Maybe some consider that handmade, others not. It's kind of hard to say. Let's say I am a customer and someone is selling original "handmade" instrument designs in a wooden case. I very well may assume from this claim that it was their own design and they made the box. I probably would not be shocked if the board etching was done elsewhere. But then what if I find out that all the electronics were designed by another person and the boards are not just etched but populated in a large Chinese factory and arrive at the seller's house assembled. Was I ripped off by the claim it was handmade? Maybe.
  - fr0sty 13y ago
    To argue by analogy, are the (no doubt hundreds) of "clocks" listed on etsy that are no more than a cheap prebought movement mounted through a hole in a piece of wood in violation of the same policy? What about the driftwood lamps and such which are just prebought components fished through holes someone drilled?
    - Zimahl 13y ago
      To play devils advocate, the driftwood lamps are all unique pieces made with lighting parts that probably couldn't be made by an individual. A clockwork is outside the scope of individual construction as well.
      - stedaniels 13y ago
        The driftwood wasn't made by the person, but by nature. You saying the clockwork is outside the scope of individual construction, but this guy is getting hammered for using a circuit board? Because yeah, those are so much easier to knock up compared to a clock mechanism... Any Tom, Dick or Harry, can drill a whole for a light fitting in some driftwood.
        Zimahl 13y ago
        I said I was playing devils advocate but I guess I will continue that role. He's not getting hammered for using a circuit board, I highly doubt Etsy is concerned about that. What they are concerned about is whether or not the guy is doing the work on these. He hasn't shown enough for me to be able to say that he is putting them together. He has pictures of a workbench, some soldering equipment, some wood and other parts, and the finished product. How does this differ from a driftwood lamp or a clock with a ready-built clockwork? It's not just semantics. Obviously there are things that Etsy allows and things they don't but it's also the craftiness (is that a word?) of the project. I'll be honest that this guy's project doesn't seem very crafty, whether or not he's putting everything together there's nothing really crafty or unique about it. This doesn't take anything away from what it is or the demand for it, it just might not fit in as an Etsy business.
- DanBC 13y ago
  I guess he should have should the laser etch in process - or maybe mail them a special "Hello Etsy!" laser etched bit of wood. He could have described his process a lot more clearly. He could have said which bits were bought in, and then which bits he did more work to, and then what gets assembled to what.
- D9u 13y ago
  In an age of 3D printed firearms how can one doubt what it takes to build such electronics? I especially like the wood casework. I used to work for a guy who built his own hardwood cabinets to house his computers because his wife wanted things to be "pretty." The cabinets were oversize and easy to work on besides being beautiful.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Judging by Regretsy, the moment Elmer's Glue gets into the mix. He should have called it a "found electronic objects sculpture", and also glued a uterus to the bottom of it. When his project is inevitably accepted back onto Etsy, he should make some marketing hay out of this, because his project is so ambitious and well-finished that Etsy thinks it must be a large-scale commercial project.
  - tiredofcareer 13y ago
    http://www.regretsy.com/2010/09/22/cause-for-alarm/ http://www.regretsy.com/2010/09/22/cause-for-alarm/ ...probably didn't build actual clock himself, he's just cutting a base for it and applying a photograph. So, that's interesting w/r/t the article. (Edit: Oh, someone below me said that already.) At any rate, thank you for showing me Regretsy. I didn't want to work today, and this is a good start.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  The last time I checked my ethics and fundamental laws, the burden of the proof was on the accuser, and the doubt was with the defendant. That said, US business customs are hard to grasp for me. The only thing that is certain nowadays is that for everything promised in the advertisement material there is a mangled TOS clause for the company to avoid delivering it.
  - Guvante 13y ago
    That is because while it is easy to get your money back for most transactions if there is a disagreement, wide range legal battles are a much bigger threat. Heck if you don't have the right TOS you could get sued by someone who never purchased from you in a court on the other side of the country.
  - rogerbinns 13y ago
    > The last time I checked my ethics and fundamental laws, the burden of the proof was on the accuser, and the doubt was with the defendant That is the case when there is punishment available, and both parties are acting in good faith. When the defendant is a "spammer" then there isn't really any punishment available: eg suing them would be extremely expensive and unlikely to succeed for logistical reasons. And a spammer isn't acting in good faith - they are poisoning the well. If you tell them exactly how your "poison" detector found what they were doing, then you've just told them how to work around it so the arms race escalates with the spammer getting a head start.
    - nraynaud 13y ago
      This is close to the "terrorist argument", the idea that some kind of actions warrant the suspension of due process. Holding strongly to your values is holding due process in the face of exceptional circumstances. Otherwise you're just getting down to your enemy's level, hence not doing better that spammers. Spammers clog the pipes, drown relevant information under irrelevant one and hinder the free-flowing business of innocents, so we are creating procedures that clog the pipes, suck people's focus away and hinder the free-flowing business of innocents. And that get people used to arbitrary decisions and based on no due process.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- rustybuckets 13y ago
  Well, I know that going on an internet stranger's word alone isn't much--but hear me out. I know the man. Known him for years; lived with him. I watched him teach himself how to build electronics simply from books he checked out from our college's library. I've been in his workshop and watched him build his devices. He's legit, and this is fucking unfair. He's unemployed and this is one of his few sources of income right now.
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    I don't think he has done anything wrong, maybe I shouldn't have said "I'm siding" with Etsy; I just can see their point of view. It doesn't really justify the less-than-friendly communication and shutting down his sales without notice. He should definitely set up sales in multiple sites like Tindie or Gumroad.
- Supermighty 13y ago
  I see a ton of moleskine cashier notebooks on etsy with nothing more a rubber stamp inked on the front. I know it's different than etching a logo on the back. What's the criteria for modification. How much must you change an object before it passes. Maybe if he covered it in fake rhinestones he would have been OK.
  - MBCook 13y ago
    > What's the criteria for modification. How much must you change an object before it passes. Maybe if he covered it in fake rhinestones he would have been OK. I think this would be something that Etsy should clarify. I imagine that if each case was hand painted with a different design it would have been OK. But what if instead of a real painting, it was just splashes of color? Or a stamp print of your logo? Sadly, I'm guessing your rhinestone comments dead on.
- beedogs 13y ago
  Please. There's plenty of evidence in those photos that more than convinces me. And for Etsy to do this while just about everything else on their site is mass-produced sweatshop crap is total bullshit.

by jrajav 13y ago

ricardobeat 13y ago

I'm kind of siding with Etsy here, despite thinking he is being honest. The information provided is not enough to tell if he isn't just buying ready-made products and etching his logo on the back. It's a tough judgment, really, at what threshold does something qualify as hand-made?

fr0sty 13y ago
And who's to say that every other item on that site was not made by some sweatshop that churns out crates of knick-knacks? This is a "featured item" on the front page: http://www.etsy.com/listing/88946705/tomato-art-print-lovely-vegetables?ref=fp_treasury_1 http://www.etsy.com/listing/88946705/tomato-art-print-lovely... Does the creator need to send documentation of them creating the original? Why not?
- MBCook 13y ago
  But in that case, the art was an original design (supposedly). They don't need a sweatshop, it's just a run of prints. What's happening here is more like he made a stencil from someone else's art and says it should count as hand made because he paints each canvas using the stencil and puts it in a generic frame he made.
droithomme 13y ago
I agree there's not enough information to determine how much he is contributing. I see some wood and a soldering iron, but I don't see evidence he is populating the boards himself, or his jig for making the finger joints. He might be but he doesn't show a set up sufficient to determine. I'm also skeptical of the claims that there are trade secrets involved in assembling known designs and boards made by others and putting together a rectangular case. The Bob Moog factory in Asheville has glass windows around their factory floor and customers are invited to watch their entire assembly process. Does Moog have more protection worthy trade secrets in their assembly methods than these designs? Probably. If he is putting fully assembled boards into a premade box, is it hand made? In his post it sounds like he is saying he designs the front panel layout and has it cut and stenciled at a facility somewhere, and no doubt he screws in the potentiometers, attaches the knobs, and solders the leads. He says the boards come from China and are designed by someone else. He doesn't say if he populates the boards or if they come finished, ready for lead attachment. If lead attachment and the panel layout this is the extent of his work, perhaps etsy might not consider that truly handmade. Or perhaps they want more disclosure about how much is done. Maybe some consider that handmade, others not. It's kind of hard to say. Let's say I am a customer and someone is selling original "handmade" instrument designs in a wooden case. I very well may assume from this claim that it was their own design and they made the box. I probably would not be shocked if the board etching was done elsewhere. But then what if I find out that all the electronics were designed by another person and the boards are not just etched but populated in a large Chinese factory and arrive at the seller's house assembled. Was I ripped off by the claim it was handmade? Maybe.
- fr0sty 13y ago
  To argue by analogy, are the (no doubt hundreds) of "clocks" listed on etsy that are no more than a cheap prebought movement mounted through a hole in a piece of wood in violation of the same policy? What about the driftwood lamps and such which are just prebought components fished through holes someone drilled?
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    To play devils advocate, the driftwood lamps are all unique pieces made with lighting parts that probably couldn't be made by an individual. A clockwork is outside the scope of individual construction as well.
    - stedaniels 13y ago
      The driftwood wasn't made by the person, but by nature. You saying the clockwork is outside the scope of individual construction, but this guy is getting hammered for using a circuit board? Because yeah, those are so much easier to knock up compared to a clock mechanism... Any Tom, Dick or Harry, can drill a whole for a light fitting in some driftwood.
      - Zimahl 13y ago
        I said I was playing devils advocate but I guess I will continue that role. He's not getting hammered for using a circuit board, I highly doubt Etsy is concerned about that. What they are concerned about is whether or not the guy is doing the work on these. He hasn't shown enough for me to be able to say that he is putting them together. He has pictures of a workbench, some soldering equipment, some wood and other parts, and the finished product. How does this differ from a driftwood lamp or a clock with a ready-built clockwork? It's not just semantics. Obviously there are things that Etsy allows and things they don't but it's also the craftiness (is that a word?) of the project. I'll be honest that this guy's project doesn't seem very crafty, whether or not he's putting everything together there's nothing really crafty or unique about it. This doesn't take anything away from what it is or the demand for it, it just might not fit in as an Etsy business.
DanBC 13y ago
I guess he should have should the laser etch in process - or maybe mail them a special "Hello Etsy!" laser etched bit of wood. He could have described his process a lot more clearly. He could have said which bits were bought in, and then which bits he did more work to, and then what gets assembled to what.
D9u 13y ago
In an age of 3D printed firearms how can one doubt what it takes to build such electronics? I especially like the wood casework. I used to work for a guy who built his own hardwood cabinets to house his computers because his wife wanted things to be "pretty." The cabinets were oversize and easy to work on besides being beautiful.
tptacek 13y ago
Judging by Regretsy, the moment Elmer's Glue gets into the mix. He should have called it a "found electronic objects sculpture", and also glued a uterus to the bottom of it. When his project is inevitably accepted back onto Etsy, he should make some marketing hay out of this, because his project is so ambitious and well-finished that Etsy thinks it must be a large-scale commercial project.
- tiredofcareer 13y ago
  http://www.regretsy.com/2010/09/22/cause-for-alarm/ http://www.regretsy.com/2010/09/22/cause-for-alarm/ ...probably didn't build actual clock himself, he's just cutting a base for it and applying a photograph. So, that's interesting w/r/t the article. (Edit: Oh, someone below me said that already.) At any rate, thank you for showing me Regretsy. I didn't want to work today, and this is a good start.
nraynaud 13y ago
The last time I checked my ethics and fundamental laws, the burden of the proof was on the accuser, and the doubt was with the defendant. That said, US business customs are hard to grasp for me. The only thing that is certain nowadays is that for everything promised in the advertisement material there is a mangled TOS clause for the company to avoid delivering it.
- Guvante 13y ago
  That is because while it is easy to get your money back for most transactions if there is a disagreement, wide range legal battles are a much bigger threat. Heck if you don't have the right TOS you could get sued by someone who never purchased from you in a court on the other side of the country.
- rogerbinns 13y ago
  > The last time I checked my ethics and fundamental laws, the burden of the proof was on the accuser, and the doubt was with the defendant That is the case when there is punishment available, and both parties are acting in good faith. When the defendant is a "spammer" then there isn't really any punishment available: eg suing them would be extremely expensive and unlikely to succeed for logistical reasons. And a spammer isn't acting in good faith - they are poisoning the well. If you tell them exactly how your "poison" detector found what they were doing, then you've just told them how to work around it so the arms race escalates with the spammer getting a head start.
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    This is close to the "terrorist argument", the idea that some kind of actions warrant the suspension of due process. Holding strongly to your values is holding due process in the face of exceptional circumstances. Otherwise you're just getting down to your enemy's level, hence not doing better that spammers. Spammers clog the pipes, drown relevant information under irrelevant one and hinder the free-flowing business of innocents, so we are creating procedures that clog the pipes, suck people's focus away and hinder the free-flowing business of innocents. And that get people used to arbitrary decisions and based on no due process.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rustybuckets 13y ago
Well, I know that going on an internet stranger's word alone isn't much--but hear me out. I know the man. Known him for years; lived with him. I watched him teach himself how to build electronics simply from books he checked out from our college's library. I've been in his workshop and watched him build his devices. He's legit, and this is fucking unfair. He's unemployed and this is one of his few sources of income right now.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  I don't think he has done anything wrong, maybe I shouldn't have said "I'm siding" with Etsy; I just can see their point of view. It doesn't really justify the less-than-friendly communication and shutting down his sales without notice. He should definitely set up sales in multiple sites like Tindie or Gumroad.
Supermighty 13y ago
I see a ton of moleskine cashier notebooks on etsy with nothing more a rubber stamp inked on the front. I know it's different than etching a logo on the back. What's the criteria for modification. How much must you change an object before it passes. Maybe if he covered it in fake rhinestones he would have been OK.
- MBCook 13y ago
  > What's the criteria for modification. How much must you change an object before it passes. Maybe if he covered it in fake rhinestones he would have been OK. I think this would be something that Etsy should clarify. I imagine that if each case was hand painted with a different design it would have been OK. But what if instead of a real painting, it was just splashes of color? Or a stamp print of your logo? Sadly, I'm guessing your rhinestone comments dead on.
beedogs 13y ago
Please. There's plenty of evidence in those photos that more than convinces me. And for Etsy to do this while just about everything else on their site is mass-produced sweatshop crap is total bullshit.