7 ms·

There is no Europe. I can only speak for my country, the Netherlands, and there is no such thing as people not having the personal funds to buy or rent housing.

There is no Europe. I can only speak for my country, the Netherlands, and there is no such thing as people not having the personal funds to buy or rent housing. That's why we have minimum wages, social security, rent subsidies and regulated rent. The homeless here are people mostly people with mental health issues that reject or don't respond to treatment. It's by far not a perfect utopian system, but to have people being homeless just because they can't afford it would be considered an unacceptable failure of a civilized society. Decent housing, like healthcare, is considered a human right, not something people have to be able to "afford".

dominostars 13y ago
> The homeless here are people mostly people with mental health issues that reject or don't respond to treatment. I would speculate that this is true for San Francisco, especially in the downtown (tenderloin) area.
- pyoung 13y ago
  The lack of universal health care probably exacerbates the homelessness situation in the U.S. With that said, what you see in San Francisco is largely a product of the combination of homeless friendly policies and tolerable weather. Many of the 'homeless' you see during the day don't actually sleep on the street (although a decent number do) and actually reside in SRO's, subsidized housing, and shelters (One complaint I have heard about SF, you can only afford to live here if you are really rich, or if you are really poor). Fact is the homeless situation may be a bit ugly, but it exists everywhere, it just may not be as visible. At least in SF, it's harder to ignore.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    European nations would not be able to afford universal healthcare and all the welfare if they had to pay for their security. US bases in Europe are great financial aid. I never hear discussions about Iran or Russia being a possible threat in Europe. I do in the US. Which is funny because it really is much bigger problem for Europeans to have guys like Putin and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at their door steps. Never happens. The US bases and military spending is taken for granted. They prefer to talk about universal healthcare and help for the poor instead. As security is non-issue with the US soldiers deployed to this continent. The thing that really gets on my nerves is that some politicians even want the US bases to be moved out from Europe. They simply don't understand the world in which they are living. Talking distances Syria is closer to Greece than Greece to Germany. Nobody thinks about it that way though. The US pays the military bills for the whole of Europe and this amounts to money that can and is spent on social services.
    - just_hobbyst 13y ago
      Bullshit. Finland doesn't have US bases on it's territory and all it's security is paid by the country itself. Plus, it always is under direct threat from Russia. Despite of that (or maybe because of that?) it does have a decent universal healthcare system. Besides, having US base on your territory is not a guaranty of security - South Vietnam had a lot of them and it didn't help them.
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        Yeah, that's why socialism is exported by Russia. You see: normally people would vote for security/military spending and not social care. But that's exactly what Russians, i.e. KGB do. They export socialism to the elites of countries they want to weaken. If you study Russian expansionism since its inception hundreds of years ago, their strategy has always been the same. Russia strategy for centuries has been always the same: start weakening countries you want to invade decades before military action by the means of exporting intellectual fashions that will destroy country's defense system. They use spies and agents heavily for that. Polish kings used to be Russian agents way before Russia invaded Poland. Isn't that genius? Sponsor some crazy parties that want to cut military spending or some other that will introduce social chaos and not talk about real issues (i.e. "rights" of different groups of people, introduce heavy political correctness to avoid important topics), all the stuff to rotten country from inside first. In XX/XXI century this means helping create in targeted country via KGB socialistic elites, socialistic media, education creating weak confused people. So they will never vote for parties advocating strong military and patriotism. So, this much better for Russia, this much worse for Finland. First thing KGB does is to make sure you (as a country) loose your common sense. Military spending when neighboring Russia? What for, right? No, we'll spend it all on help for the poor. Well, what I can say: Good Luck! BTW: http://www.therightsphere.com/2013/04/putins-russia-to-make-huge-military-investments/ http://www.therightsphere.com/2013/04/putins-russia-to-make-...
        just_hobbyst 13y ago
        Man, you really are confused! If a country is serious about national defence then it really needs universal health care, because it needs lots of healthy soldiers. Soviet Russia did a lot to make sure there was at least basic medical care available to everyone for exactly this reason - they needed millions of soldiers! Finland is doing the right thing when it takes care for it's citizens. Also, news flash for you: socialism in Russia ended some 20 years ago. Now they have a pretty ruthless form of capitalism in there. When I read what you have to say about Poland I start to think you are from some kind of alternative universe. It's just bizarre.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
orbital303 13y ago
This explains the lack of both decent housing and healthcare don't exist in the US. A country that cares so little about its citizens' human rights that it will publicly murder them is not a country that is likely to care about healthcare or housing.
vitobcn 13y ago
I originally come from Spain, where the weather is nicer than in the Netherlands, and there certainly are homeless people living and sleeping in the streets, or in cold occasions during winter, they can also be seen under the roof provided by an atm / bank branch. However, having been in SFO multiple times, the number of poor/homeless people with no resources is much more evident there. My take is that generally the unemployment, healtchare, etc. benefits offered in most European countries do play a significant role in reducing the number of cases.
- sdfjkl 13y ago
  When I was in Gibraltar (a tiny tip of land at the south end of Spain under part British rule) there were no homeless people to be seen, despite some of the nicest weather in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar (I recommend visiting, it's a fascinating place).
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  From what I understand, SFO has a bit of an epidemic because of their policies. The city is extremely supporting of the homeless compared to other cities in the USA, so the nation's homeless tend to migrate to SFO. Also, weather in California is pretty nice year-round. I know I'd prefer California to Arizona or Michigan if I was homeless.
ownagefool 13y ago
Sadly, there are always those who fall between the cracks who have neither mental health or drug addictions. All we can ever do is try though, because not everyone asks for help.
ekianjo 13y ago
Not discussing whether it's right or wrong to think this way, but "decent housing" is certainly not remotely considered as a human right. This may be what most people think nowadays, but it's certainly not written anywhere in most constitutions. This is just your interpretation. Now, not being able to afford housing depends on many factors, it's not just about how much you earn, it's also about the artifical bubbles created on property values by the actors in place...
- childoftv 13y ago
  So some documents do treat housing as a human right: (UN declaration of human rights) Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. - https://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ https://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    UN declaration is just a statement of "wishes". Almost no country reflects it in their actual regulations or constitutions. And let's not forget that many dictatorships signed that declaration and respect none of its principles, so this is, unfortunately, worthless.
- vacri 13y ago
  Constitutions for the most part are not about describing human rights. They are about describing the method of governments - who is elected where and how, what authorities they have and so forth. There's usually some flowery preamble at the start about how awesome we all are in country -foo-, but the role of a constitution is generally to describe the structure of government.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    I kind of agree with you but that is not really true. The American constitution clearly makes the case for fundamental rights such as Freedom of Expression, among others.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ohwp 13y ago
I'm also from the Netherlands and working with homeless people in my spare time. "The homeless here are people mostly people with mental health issues that reject or don't respond to treatment." Well in most cases it's the other way around. They become mentally ill because of being homeless (and lonely, and drugs all around to 'ease' the pain). Did you know there are homeless people in the Netherlands that have a job? Divorced, have to pay child alimony so they don't have enough money to pay the rent. There are children that have a home but can't call it home, so they prefer to live in the streets. And there are a lot of people with a home but without gas and/or electricity because they can't afford it. They aren't homeless but imagine living in a house when it's -7 degrees outside (most of the time they can add like 3 degrees to the outside temperature). What I'm trying to say is that a lot of the failure of civilized society is hidden.

dominostars 13y ago

> The homeless here are people mostly people with mental health issues that reject or don't respond to treatment. I would speculate that this is true for San Francisco, especially in the downtown (tenderloin) area.

pyoung 13y ago
The lack of universal health care probably exacerbates the homelessness situation in the U.S. With that said, what you see in San Francisco is largely a product of the combination of homeless friendly policies and tolerable weather. Many of the 'homeless' you see during the day don't actually sleep on the street (although a decent number do) and actually reside in SRO's, subsidized housing, and shelters (One complaint I have heard about SF, you can only afford to live here if you are really rich, or if you are really poor). Fact is the homeless situation may be a bit ugly, but it exists everywhere, it just may not be as visible. At least in SF, it's harder to ignore.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  European nations would not be able to afford universal healthcare and all the welfare if they had to pay for their security. US bases in Europe are great financial aid. I never hear discussions about Iran or Russia being a possible threat in Europe. I do in the US. Which is funny because it really is much bigger problem for Europeans to have guys like Putin and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at their door steps. Never happens. The US bases and military spending is taken for granted. They prefer to talk about universal healthcare and help for the poor instead. As security is non-issue with the US soldiers deployed to this continent. The thing that really gets on my nerves is that some politicians even want the US bases to be moved out from Europe. They simply don't understand the world in which they are living. Talking distances Syria is closer to Greece than Greece to Germany. Nobody thinks about it that way though. The US pays the military bills for the whole of Europe and this amounts to money that can and is spent on social services.
  - just_hobbyst 13y ago
    Bullshit. Finland doesn't have US bases on it's territory and all it's security is paid by the country itself. Plus, it always is under direct threat from Russia. Despite of that (or maybe because of that?) it does have a decent universal healthcare system. Besides, having US base on your territory is not a guaranty of security - South Vietnam had a lot of them and it didn't help them.
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      Yeah, that's why socialism is exported by Russia. You see: normally people would vote for security/military spending and not social care. But that's exactly what Russians, i.e. KGB do. They export socialism to the elites of countries they want to weaken. If you study Russian expansionism since its inception hundreds of years ago, their strategy has always been the same. Russia strategy for centuries has been always the same: start weakening countries you want to invade decades before military action by the means of exporting intellectual fashions that will destroy country's defense system. They use spies and agents heavily for that. Polish kings used to be Russian agents way before Russia invaded Poland. Isn't that genius? Sponsor some crazy parties that want to cut military spending or some other that will introduce social chaos and not talk about real issues (i.e. "rights" of different groups of people, introduce heavy political correctness to avoid important topics), all the stuff to rotten country from inside first. In XX/XXI century this means helping create in targeted country via KGB socialistic elites, socialistic media, education creating weak confused people. So they will never vote for parties advocating strong military and patriotism. So, this much better for Russia, this much worse for Finland. First thing KGB does is to make sure you (as a country) loose your common sense. Military spending when neighboring Russia? What for, right? No, we'll spend it all on help for the poor. Well, what I can say: Good Luck! BTW: http://www.therightsphere.com/2013/04/putins-russia-to-make-huge-military-investments/ http://www.therightsphere.com/2013/04/putins-russia-to-make-...
      - just_hobbyst 13y ago
        Man, you really are confused! If a country is serious about national defence then it really needs universal health care, because it needs lots of healthy soldiers. Soviet Russia did a lot to make sure there was at least basic medical care available to everyone for exactly this reason - they needed millions of soldiers! Finland is doing the right thing when it takes care for it's citizens. Also, news flash for you: socialism in Russia ended some 20 years ago. Now they have a pretty ruthless form of capitalism in there. When I read what you have to say about Poland I start to think you are from some kind of alternative universe. It's just bizarre.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

orbital303 13y ago

This explains the lack of both decent housing and healthcare don't exist in the US. A country that cares so little about its citizens' human rights that it will publicly murder them is not a country that is likely to care about healthcare or housing.

vitobcn 13y ago

I originally come from Spain, where the weather is nicer than in the Netherlands, and there certainly are homeless people living and sleeping in the streets, or in cold occasions during winter, they can also be seen under the roof provided by an atm / bank branch. However, having been in SFO multiple times, the number of poor/homeless people with no resources is much more evident there. My take is that generally the unemployment, healtchare, etc. benefits offered in most European countries do play a significant role in reducing the number of cases.

sdfjkl 13y ago
When I was in Gibraltar (a tiny tip of land at the south end of Spain under part British rule) there were no homeless people to be seen, despite some of the nicest weather in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar (I recommend visiting, it's a fascinating place).
sliverstorm 13y ago
From what I understand, SFO has a bit of an epidemic because of their policies. The city is extremely supporting of the homeless compared to other cities in the USA, so the nation's homeless tend to migrate to SFO. Also, weather in California is pretty nice year-round. I know I'd prefer California to Arizona or Michigan if I was homeless.

ownagefool 13y ago

Sadly, there are always those who fall between the cracks who have neither mental health or drug addictions. All we can ever do is try though, because not everyone asks for help.

ekianjo 13y ago

Not discussing whether it's right or wrong to think this way, but "decent housing" is certainly not remotely considered as a human right. This may be what most people think nowadays, but it's certainly not written anywhere in most constitutions. This is just your interpretation. Now, not being able to afford housing depends on many factors, it's not just about how much you earn, it's also about the artifical bubbles created on property values by the actors in place...

childoftv 13y ago
So some documents do treat housing as a human right: (UN declaration of human rights) Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. - https://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ https://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
- ekianjo 13y ago
  UN declaration is just a statement of "wishes". Almost no country reflects it in their actual regulations or constitutions. And let's not forget that many dictatorships signed that declaration and respect none of its principles, so this is, unfortunately, worthless.
vacri 13y ago
Constitutions for the most part are not about describing human rights. They are about describing the method of governments - who is elected where and how, what authorities they have and so forth. There's usually some flowery preamble at the start about how awesome we all are in country -foo-, but the role of a constitution is generally to describe the structure of government.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  I kind of agree with you but that is not really true. The American constitution clearly makes the case for fundamental rights such as Freedom of Expression, among others.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ohwp 13y ago

I'm also from the Netherlands and working with homeless people in my spare time. "The homeless here are people mostly people with mental health issues that reject or don't respond to treatment." Well in most cases it's the other way around. They become mentally ill because of being homeless (and lonely, and drugs all around to 'ease' the pain). Did you know there are homeless people in the Netherlands that have a job? Divorced, have to pay child alimony so they don't have enough money to pay the rent. There are children that have a home but can't call it home, so they prefer to live in the streets. And there are a lot of people with a home but without gas and/or electricity because they can't afford it. They aren't homeless but imagine living in a house when it's -7 degrees outside (most of the time they can add like 3 degrees to the outside temperature). What I'm trying to say is that a lot of the failure of civilized society is hidden.