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"This is a waste of time" is read by someone who currently does no exercise as "I may as well not bother trying". Fitness advice is so fragmented and the debat

"This is a waste of time" is read by someone who currently does no exercise as "I may as well not bother trying". Fitness advice is so fragmented and the debates between those who practice various types of fitness are so vigorous that it puts people off to fitness entirely. If you actually want to inspire people who are not fit to get fit, it is going to take encouragement, not constant criticism of every possible method of getting fit. There is literally no exercise routine that someone can propose and not face immediate criticism. A beginner doesn't need a perfect routine (which clearly doesn't exist anyway given all the argument on the issue). They need to do something. Something that is not actively harmful and will increase their fitness, even in a small way. You may think you are showing people a better way, but you are really giving people nowhere to turn for support, because everyone always tries to show a better way no matter what the original way was. I could come here every single day posting about another fitness routine and every single day I would be told it's wrong. So if everything is wrong, what do you think I am going to do? Nothing.

pvnick 13y ago
See my edit for the right way. I'm sorry the bloated fitness industry has inundated you with bad advice :(
- Caskman 13y ago
  Motivation is an issue for some people. I myself find it hard to get myself to go to the gym but I can much more easily do workouts at home. This is much better than nothing at all and I am working up the motivation to move on to the gym.
  - pvnick 13y ago
    If motivation is youre problem try some of this stuff: http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 I could be completely depressed and sleep deprived, drink a scoop of that, and the ONLY thing I'll want to do is get in a squat rack and put some heavy shit in the air.
    - Caskman 13y ago
      The problem I have with that is then I'm dependent on a drug to get myself to workout. Anything like what you linked is most likely not good for you on a regular basis. My problem is my mindset, which will take time and effort. My overall point is that while these "scientific" workouts are not the best way to workout, people should at least do something instead of nothing, similar to what DanielStraight said. Then if they truly want better results, they should follow routines like yours.
    - ceejayoz 13y ago
      That's more likely to be Pavlovian conditioning than any actual health effect. "ATP augmentor"?! You're criticizing gimmicky crap and bloated industries and you post a "health supplement"?
      - pvnick 13y ago
        The only reason I recommend that is it's the best pre-workout stimulant I've ever tried, and I've tried a few. YMMV but Jacked 3d with the DMAA ingredient is known in weightlifting circles as a miracle substance. Tear off the damn label if it bothers you. Edit: http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/high-protein-recipes-and-jack3d-review.html http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/high-protein-recipes-and-ja... make sure not to get the "micro" stuff and instead look for the one with the DMAA in it
    - albemuth 13y ago
      @ceejayoz literature on creatine is pretty sound, unless your diet provides enough creatine, supplementation is beneficial. Here's a literature review: http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/ http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/
    - oftenwrong 13y ago
      Apparently, that stuff is of questionable safety, as it contains DMAA: http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm347270.htm?source=govdelivery http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm347270.ht... https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/business/fda-issues-warning-on-workout-booster.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/business/fda-issues-warni...
- LaGrange 13y ago
  It's highly ironic then, that you respond to a not-asking-for-money article on "how to get some basics off the ground" with advice to buy yet another "this time it's totally right, honest" book buy a guy who considers a quarterback more useful than me, Steven Hawking and probably you as well. And later in the thread you're starting to peddle miracle cure.
  - pvnick 13y ago
    You don't have to buy the book - the same advice is given on the website you'll see if you search google for it. Or even do Stronglifts, which is the same kind of thing as Starting Strength (some people even consider it a ripoff) and it's free. But don't go shooting the messenger because he's a bit of a meathead and turn people off to good advice as a result. That's just employing logical fallacy. Really, the benefits of weightlifting and eating properly are so great that if you tried it you wouldn't be surprised I'm so adamant about these programs. They literally prevent you from dying early.
sinnerswing 13y ago
Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 8-Minute Abs? Ted: Yeah, sure, 8-Minute Abs. Yeah, the excercise video. Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 7... Minute... Abs. Ted: Right. Yes. OK, all right. I see where you're going. Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a video store, you see 8-Minute Abs sittin' there, there's 7-Minute Abs right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man? Ted: I would go for the 7. Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk. Ted: That's right. That's - that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?
sliverstorm 13y ago
A beginner doesn't need a perfect routine. They need to do something. Sure, but it can't be just any ol' snake oil thing. If they keep buying into snake oil after snake oil, they will never see results and only become more depressed and unmotivated. Snake oil exercise regimes are actively detrimental because of this.
- jimmar 13y ago
  The routine in the NY Times doesn't seem like snake oil. Jumping jacks and push-ups? Hardly revolutionary. It's not like their were promoting strange supplements or buying expensive fitness equipment.
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    It's not "snake oil" in the sense of something which has no effect. It's just that it's so utterly unbalanced and poorly thought out that it's ultimately very little better than nothing. Posted elsewhere in this thread but very much worth reading, a devastating take-down of the piece: http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo...
- Retric 13y ago
  The way I see it there are basically four types of exercise. Basic fitness, sculpting what you look like, preparation for some specific activity, burning calories. But the dirty little secret is burning calories though exercise is basically a waste of time compared to simply eating less and it takes vary little to get basic fitness. So assuming your diet is reasonable you can look like someone that spends 2 hours a day in the working out by doing to same basic routine without the cardio.
  - flagnog 13y ago
    Ever hear of skinny-fat? That's where someone is at the right weight, but because they do no exercise they have NO muscle tone. It's better to exercise and not have a perfect diet than not exercise and have a perfect diet.
miek 13y ago
While it may not be a total waste of time, it could actually be dangerous to a large portion of this article's target audience. The best rebuttal to the article that I've seen so far is here: http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo...
dclowd9901 13y ago
Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s. Exercise is hard. We used to have to do it, you know, to like eat and stuff. I would be willing to bet that if you grabbed a prehistoric man and dropped him into now with all the luxuries modern life affords, he, himself, would be loathe to exercise. You have to want it. People who do "7 minute exercises" don't want anything. They can't even find value in prolonging their life, or living more healthy, or goddammit even looking better. There is no fragmented advice, no magic bullet. If you want to be healthy, you have to work for it. Period.
- md224 13y ago
  > Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s. I assume this is intended as snark, but still... a little extreme.
- dgabriel 13y ago
  Why would you say something like that?
  - dclowd9901 13y ago
    Like what? I said a lot of things.
    - dgabriel 13y ago
      "Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s." It's a ridiculous statement. Life expectancy, even among those who do not regularly exercise, is greater than 50. My mom is 70, and the most exercise she's ever gotten was from walking (and not for fitness, just around the block, or meandering through the mall). She certainly would not have been better off dying in her 50s.
dredmorbius 13y ago
Fitness advice is so fragmented and the debates between those who practice various types of fitness are so vigorous that it puts people off to fitness entirely. Yes and no. Once you dig past the obviously bullshit claims and scams, and the One True Way prophets (and even Rippetoe suffers this to an extent), there's a lot that's very well established. Much of the problem boils down to a fundamental set of market failures: fitness _is_ simple (not "easy", but simple), and there's relatively little money to be made in the stuff that really works (that's a principle you can apply well beyond the field as well). The rebuttal piece noted elsewhere in this thread is excellent. Read it. http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo... The most important thing for me to realize is understanding how your body responds to training, diet, rest, recovery, and stress. Here's the key: your body is a complex feedback system responding largely with and to hormonal flows you can influence directly through diet and training. "Training" includes both strength training and cardio. For the typical schmoe or schmoette, a basic level of strength, cardiovascular, mobility, and motor-control fitness is reasonably easy to attain. An extremely good general overview is Liam Rosen's guide. The Reddit Fitness FAQ is also quite good. Neither is selling anything, a key point: http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/Fitness http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/Fitness Rippetoe is a good introduction to strength. The "New Rules of Lifting" books by Schuler and Cosgrove go a bit broader (and add some scope to strength training), as well as add the introductory phase that some untrained individuals might benefit from which Rippetoe largely omits (though the general principle that "you cannot start too light" is useful to keep in mind. As to the failings of the NY Times piece, there are many, and these are highly typical of Gretchen Reynolds pieces -- I've come to discount her, and much other, health & fitness reporting at the Times (Gina Kolada is also pretty poor in my experience, despite her stature and tenure). - It offers little or no actual strength development. - There's no training of the back (difficult without at least minimal equipment). This is omitting training a major muscle group, and one which is underutilized in most modern daily life. More than even other muscle groups. - There is no progression. You don't need "muscle confusion", but if you're going to progress in a training program, there has to be some mode of increasing the challenge over time. - This is effectively a cardio-only program. It's promoting the same myth that the fitness industry has promoted since the 1970s, that cardio is all you need. The simple truth is that muscle mass and strength offer very significant benefits (Schuler and Cosgrove get into this, Robert Arnot's Dr. Bob Arnot's Guide to Turning Back the Clock also addressed this back in 1994), and as you age, you are losing about 0.5% of your muscle mass per year. This is called "sarcopenia", or age-related muscle loss. So: yes, this is a pretty poor article, the science is lacking. The program is likely "better than nothing", but there are vastly more effective programs (and Rippetoe or "New Rules" would be good starts) which will actually provide far more returns. The key is this: while "something" may be better than "nothing", "better" is better than "something". If the article itself would point out these deficiencies and that this program is only a VERY basic starting point, I could accept it. It doesn't. Ergo: it's adding to the problem. Honestly: Gretchen should be canned.
thesz 13y ago
Let me say that the routine in the original post can be actually harmful. It should be performed close to the maximum and beginners do no know their maximums. And their maximums also very uneven - muscles here (stabilizers) aren't as strong as muscles there (main muscles) and injuries should be very likely. This routine is more for intermediate-to-advanced types and those already spent a big amount of time in gym.

pvnick 13y ago

See my edit for the right way. I'm sorry the bloated fitness industry has inundated you with bad advice :(

Caskman 13y ago
Motivation is an issue for some people. I myself find it hard to get myself to go to the gym but I can much more easily do workouts at home. This is much better than nothing at all and I am working up the motivation to move on to the gym.
- pvnick 13y ago
  If motivation is youre problem try some of this stuff: http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12553280 I could be completely depressed and sleep deprived, drink a scoop of that, and the ONLY thing I'll want to do is get in a squat rack and put some heavy shit in the air.
  - Caskman 13y ago
    The problem I have with that is then I'm dependent on a drug to get myself to workout. Anything like what you linked is most likely not good for you on a regular basis. My problem is my mindset, which will take time and effort. My overall point is that while these "scientific" workouts are not the best way to workout, people should at least do something instead of nothing, similar to what DanielStraight said. Then if they truly want better results, they should follow routines like yours.
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    That's more likely to be Pavlovian conditioning than any actual health effect. "ATP augmentor"?! You're criticizing gimmicky crap and bloated industries and you post a "health supplement"?
    - pvnick 13y ago
      The only reason I recommend that is it's the best pre-workout stimulant I've ever tried, and I've tried a few. YMMV but Jacked 3d with the DMAA ingredient is known in weightlifting circles as a miracle substance. Tear off the damn label if it bothers you. Edit: http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/high-protein-recipes-and-jack3d-review.html http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/high-protein-recipes-and-ja... make sure not to get the "micro" stuff and instead look for the one with the DMAA in it
  - albemuth 13y ago
    @ceejayoz literature on creatine is pretty sound, unless your diet provides enough creatine, supplementation is beneficial. Here's a literature review: http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/ http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/
  - oftenwrong 13y ago
    Apparently, that stuff is of questionable safety, as it contains DMAA: http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm347270.htm?source=govdelivery http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm347270.ht... https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/business/fda-issues-warning-on-workout-booster.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/13/business/fda-issues-warni...
LaGrange 13y ago
It's highly ironic then, that you respond to a not-asking-for-money article on "how to get some basics off the ground" with advice to buy yet another "this time it's totally right, honest" book buy a guy who considers a quarterback more useful than me, Steven Hawking and probably you as well. And later in the thread you're starting to peddle miracle cure.
- pvnick 13y ago
  You don't have to buy the book - the same advice is given on the website you'll see if you search google for it. Or even do Stronglifts, which is the same kind of thing as Starting Strength (some people even consider it a ripoff) and it's free. But don't go shooting the messenger because he's a bit of a meathead and turn people off to good advice as a result. That's just employing logical fallacy. Really, the benefits of weightlifting and eating properly are so great that if you tried it you wouldn't be surprised I'm so adamant about these programs. They literally prevent you from dying early.

sinnerswing 13y ago

Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 8-Minute Abs? Ted: Yeah, sure, 8-Minute Abs. Yeah, the excercise video. Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 7... Minute... Abs. Ted: Right. Yes. OK, all right. I see where you're going. Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a video store, you see 8-Minute Abs sittin' there, there's 7-Minute Abs right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man? Ted: I would go for the 7. Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk. Ted: That's right. That's - that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 6-Minute Abs. Then you're in trouble, huh?

sliverstorm 13y ago

A beginner doesn't need a perfect routine. They need to do something. Sure, but it can't be just any ol' snake oil thing. If they keep buying into snake oil after snake oil, they will never see results and only become more depressed and unmotivated. Snake oil exercise regimes are actively detrimental because of this.

jimmar 13y ago
The routine in the NY Times doesn't seem like snake oil. Jumping jacks and push-ups? Hardly revolutionary. It's not like their were promoting strange supplements or buying expensive fitness equipment.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  It's not "snake oil" in the sense of something which has no effect. It's just that it's so utterly unbalanced and poorly thought out that it's ultimately very little better than nothing. Posted elsewhere in this thread but very much worth reading, a devastating take-down of the piece: http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo...
Retric 13y ago
The way I see it there are basically four types of exercise. Basic fitness, sculpting what you look like, preparation for some specific activity, burning calories. But the dirty little secret is burning calories though exercise is basically a waste of time compared to simply eating less and it takes vary little to get basic fitness. So assuming your diet is reasonable you can look like someone that spends 2 hours a day in the working out by doing to same basic routine without the cardio.
- flagnog 13y ago
  Ever hear of skinny-fat? That's where someone is at the right weight, but because they do no exercise they have NO muscle tone. It's better to exercise and not have a perfect diet than not exercise and have a perfect diet.

miek 13y ago

While it may not be a total waste of time, it could actually be dangerous to a large portion of this article's target audience. The best rebuttal to the article that I've seen so far is here: http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo...

dclowd9901 13y ago

Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s. Exercise is hard. We used to have to do it, you know, to like eat and stuff. I would be willing to bet that if you grabbed a prehistoric man and dropped him into now with all the luxuries modern life affords, he, himself, would be loathe to exercise. You have to want it. People who do "7 minute exercises" don't want anything. They can't even find value in prolonging their life, or living more healthy, or goddammit even looking better. There is no fragmented advice, no magic bullet. If you want to be healthy, you have to work for it. Period.

md224 13y ago
> Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s. I assume this is intended as snark, but still... a little extreme.
dgabriel 13y ago
Why would you say something like that?
- dclowd9901 13y ago
  Like what? I said a lot of things.
  - dgabriel 13y ago
    "Those people are just looking for a reason not to get exercise, and are better off dying around their mid 50s." It's a ridiculous statement. Life expectancy, even among those who do not regularly exercise, is greater than 50. My mom is 70, and the most exercise she's ever gotten was from walking (and not for fitness, just around the block, or meandering through the mall). She certainly would not have been better off dying in her 50s.

dredmorbius 13y ago

Fitness advice is so fragmented and the debates between those who practice various types of fitness are so vigorous that it puts people off to fitness entirely. Yes and no. Once you dig past the obviously bullshit claims and scams, and the One True Way prophets (and even Rippetoe suffers this to an extent), there's a lot that's very well established. Much of the problem boils down to a fundamental set of market failures: fitness _is_ simple (not "easy", but simple), and there's relatively little money to be made in the stuff that really works (that's a principle you can apply well beyond the field as well). The rebuttal piece noted elsewhere in this thread is excellent. Read it. http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-workout/ http://elsbethvaino.com/2013/05/should-you-do-a-newspaper-wo... The most important thing for me to realize is understanding how your body responds to training, diet, rest, recovery, and stress. Here's the key: your body is a complex feedback system responding largely with and to hormonal flows you can influence directly through diet and training. "Training" includes both strength training and cardio. For the typical schmoe or schmoette, a basic level of strength, cardiovascular, mobility, and motor-control fitness is reasonably easy to attain. An extremely good general overview is Liam Rosen's guide. The Reddit Fitness FAQ is also quite good. Neither is selling anything, a key point: http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html http://liamrosen.com/fitness.html http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/Fitness http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/Fitness Rippetoe is a good introduction to strength. The "New Rules of Lifting" books by Schuler and Cosgrove go a bit broader (and add some scope to strength training), as well as add the introductory phase that some untrained individuals might benefit from which Rippetoe largely omits (though the general principle that "you cannot start too light" is useful to keep in mind. As to the failings of the NY Times piece, there are many, and these are highly typical of Gretchen Reynolds pieces -- I've come to discount her, and much other, health & fitness reporting at the Times (Gina Kolada is also pretty poor in my experience, despite her stature and tenure). - It offers little or no actual strength development. - There's no training of the back (difficult without at least minimal equipment). This is omitting training a major muscle group, and one which is underutilized in most modern daily life. More than even other muscle groups. - There is no progression. You don't need "muscle confusion", but if you're going to progress in a training program, there has to be some mode of increasing the challenge over time. - This is effectively a cardio-only program. It's promoting the same myth that the fitness industry has promoted since the 1970s, that cardio is all you need. The simple truth is that muscle mass and strength offer very significant benefits (Schuler and Cosgrove get into this, Robert Arnot's Dr. Bob Arnot's Guide to Turning Back the Clock also addressed this back in 1994), and as you age, you are losing about 0.5% of your muscle mass per year. This is called "sarcopenia", or age-related muscle loss. So: yes, this is a pretty poor article, the science is lacking. The program is likely "better than nothing", but there are vastly more effective programs (and Rippetoe or "New Rules" would be good starts) which will actually provide far more returns. The key is this: while "something" may be better than "nothing", "better" is better than "something". If the article itself would point out these deficiencies and that this program is only a VERY basic starting point, I could accept it. It doesn't. Ergo: it's adding to the problem. Honestly: Gretchen should be canned.

thesz 13y ago

Let me say that the routine in the original post can be actually harmful. It should be performed close to the maximum and beginners do no know their maximums. And their maximums also very uneven - muscles here (stabilizers) aren't as strong as muscles there (main muscles) and injuries should be very likely. This routine is more for intermediate-to-advanced types and those already spent a big amount of time in gym.