7 ms·

I think these supercharging stations are sad. I get annoyed at the 5 - 10 minutes that it takes to fill up my gas tank. 30 minutes to fill up would be excruciat

I think these supercharging stations are sad. I get annoyed at the 5 - 10 minutes that it takes to fill up my gas tank. 30 minutes to fill up would be excruciating. I remember seeing videos a few years ago where they wanted to have a standard for robotic drive throughs that automatically swapped out a cars low battery for a fully charged one. You could have a fresh battery in less than 5 minutes without getting out of the car. Your old batter would get charged and end up in someone else's car later. Why is that not obviously the best solution here?

andrewtbham 13y ago
Batteries degrade overtime so consumers wouldn't want to swap out their battery for one with unknown usage.
- jjoonathan 13y ago
  I think you have it backwards: if consumers constantly swap out their batteries, they unload the uncertainty of pricing the battery's degradation onto the experts. Charging stations will retire decrepit batteries and replace them with new tech. If today's batteries last 50% longer than expected or 50% shorter than expected, the consumer doesn't have to worry -- they will always have a battery that works OK and they will never get slapped with a massive unplanned repair charge. They won't have to worry about upgrading their batteries or choosing between high capacity and low capacity batteries since they can just do that at the swap station. They also don't have to worry about recycling since the station will handle it for them.
  - apapli 13y ago
    We have a program like this for BBQ gas bottles in melbourne (possibly nation wide, I've never checked). Works well - you swap your empty bottle with a full one, pay and take it home. No filling up and you know you have a safe bottle that has been checked (in Australia you cannot use one that is older than 10 years). Funnily enough you also get less precious about its "performance" - as long as it works, users tend to lover look the appearance. Car batteries are a different matter but I think there are some valid parallels here.
DanBlake 13y ago
Yep- Thats absolutely the way this should be. Its likely because of a liability issue- The cost of the batteries is so high, there is a real risk of someone swapping in a dead/fake/old one and then tesla accruing the huge loss of a potentially new battery ( 25k ? ) I think the best solution is the 'pre charged' liquid fillup- http://www.laptopsforlessblog.com/batteries/cambridge-crude-battery-fill-up/ http://www.laptopsforlessblog.com/batteries/cambridge-crude-... http://www.greenbang.com/a-new-way-to-charge-electric-cars-fill-er-up-with-electrolytes_12100.html http://www.greenbang.com/a-new-way-to-charge-electric-cars-f...
- breakyerself 13y ago
  I could definitely see that as a design challenge. Charged liquid seems like a good idea. Anything to get charge times down to what gasoline is.
gfodor 13y ago
Elon hinted an upcoming announcement that will make refueling a Tesla car as fast as a gasoline one. It's probably along the lines of this.
- samolang 13y ago
  Link: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/332516435488280577 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/332516435488280577
  - thedrbrian 13y ago
    It's going to be spectacular to see this in action. Literally.
nostromo 13y ago
The good news is you never have to go to the gas station for day to day usage. For most people this will mean dramatically less time "filling up."
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  I think this is under appreciated. Its impossible to install fuel stations near the office, its easy to install plugs. I'm waiting for the City to figure out that charging 25c a kW for charging in their parking garages is a net win for them. People plug in when they are at home (usually, our CTO is in an apartment without an easy to reach plug). In that scenario, most of the time, perhaps 90 - 95% of the time you never are 'waiting to fill up' the car is just always ready.
  - batbomb 13y ago
    .25 a kW is a hell of a bargain if you are plugged in for 8 hours.
    - ChuckMcM 13y ago
      That's the thing, the last time it came up in the news it seemed San Jose had a contract with PG&E where they paid a fixed rate for power at 0.12/kWh in their facilities. If they re-sold that power for 0.25/kWh to people parking their electric vehicles, for every kWh sold the city recovers the cost of one kWh they have used. City garages get preferred by folks with electric cars (better occupancy, more revenue) and its a win. Now as this 'win' becomes more obvious we'll see sharks come in as 'contractors', bidding to 'run the garages' for $X where that number is padded by money they will make selling charge to vehicle owners. Today, this is silly since the number of electric only cars on the market is vanishingly small, but eventually it will be the norm. Having a parking meter design on the shelf that can charge for parking and supply electricity is probably good preparation for that time.
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      Wow. I pay .01 per kWh in Chicago with time of day metering between noon-6am.
rayiner 13y ago
The problem is that you're thinking of a supercharger station like a gas station. You get annoyed at the 5-10 minutes it takes to fill up your gas tank because you have to do it every week, because the gasoline fumes make them very unpleasant places to be, and because you almost invariably have to fill up at frustrating times (e.g. in the afternoon so you have gas to get to work the next day). But a supercharger station isn't like a gas station. In an electric car, your routine charging is handled at home, overnight. The supercharger station is for emergencies and long trips. It's not a place you go to after a long day at work so you you can get back to work the next day, it's something you can work into your road trip, something you can combine with bathroom breaks and getting a cup of coffee. The robotic drive throughs are a lot more expensive for a questionable amount of value-add. The vast majority of people spend most of their time in a usage mode (commuting to work), where in-home charging is sufficient. But they also go on the occasional long-drive. That's the use-case supercharger stations fill. After that, what's left? Who takes long car trips (200+ miles) on such a frequent basis that a 30 minute charge in the middle (that can be easily combined with a rest-stop break) is a major inconvenience?
- jd 13y ago
  Exactly. Or to put it in a different way, the total time you spend waiting for your car to recharge/refuel is way lower for an electric car. The electric car is optimized for the 99% case (where recharging at home is sufficient). A gasoline car is optimized for the 1% case where you take a road trip. You get the exact same effect for people who claim they need a pickup truck instead of a small city car just so they can transport some furniture or motorcycles or a Christmas tree in the back.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    I own a Tundra short bed, but also a Lexus ct200h (wife) and a Model S. If there was an app like Uber, but for pickup trucks (on-demand/fungible capacity for transport of larger-than-car items), I'd sell my pickup truck tomorrow. I don't own the truck because I haul every day, I own it because its 8pm and someone calls and says they need help moving something right now.
mtgx 13y ago
I see your point, and I'm sure the technology will improve, but if I had to choose between "being annoyed for 5 minutes", and getting free charging for my car forever, I think the option I'd choose is obvious.
riffic 13y ago
The company doing the battery swap stations is called Better Place -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
Tuna-Fish 13y ago
The problem is that the battery is rather larger than you think. In a Model S, it runs from the front wheel base to the rear one. Removing and exchanging it would be rather a lot of work.
- ams6110 13y ago
  It would be a lot of work on the Tesla, but not necessarily a lot of work on a car designed with this in mind. Would require industry standard battery packs, as well.
yoster 13y ago
You're doing it wrong at 5-10 minutes. It's not good to fill up all the way. Half a tank is better. Less weight means better gas mileage.
- uwe_dushan 13y ago
  Full tank means fewer trips to the gas station. My time is way more valuable than the mpg savings of the half tank approach.
- mikeash 13y ago
  More trips to the gas station means more fuel burned going to the gas station. Do you have evidence that the savings from carrying less weight outweighs this?
- masklinn 13y ago
  > Half a tank is better. Less weight means better gas mileage. Half a tank is the weight of a child (gas weighs ~0.7kg/L). The mileage improvement is pretty much non-existent. Your repeated trips to gas stations probably waste more gas than this retarded scheme saves, even ignoring the time wasted.
- rdl 13y ago
  At the track, sure, but I try to never let my car get below half a tank in case of earthquake, personal emergency, power outage, etc.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

andrewtbham 13y ago

Batteries degrade overtime so consumers wouldn't want to swap out their battery for one with unknown usage.

jjoonathan 13y ago
I think you have it backwards: if consumers constantly swap out their batteries, they unload the uncertainty of pricing the battery's degradation onto the experts. Charging stations will retire decrepit batteries and replace them with new tech. If today's batteries last 50% longer than expected or 50% shorter than expected, the consumer doesn't have to worry -- they will always have a battery that works OK and they will never get slapped with a massive unplanned repair charge. They won't have to worry about upgrading their batteries or choosing between high capacity and low capacity batteries since they can just do that at the swap station. They also don't have to worry about recycling since the station will handle it for them.
- apapli 13y ago
  We have a program like this for BBQ gas bottles in melbourne (possibly nation wide, I've never checked). Works well - you swap your empty bottle with a full one, pay and take it home. No filling up and you know you have a safe bottle that has been checked (in Australia you cannot use one that is older than 10 years). Funnily enough you also get less precious about its "performance" - as long as it works, users tend to lover look the appearance. Car batteries are a different matter but I think there are some valid parallels here.

DanBlake 13y ago

Yep- Thats absolutely the way this should be. Its likely because of a liability issue- The cost of the batteries is so high, there is a real risk of someone swapping in a dead/fake/old one and then tesla accruing the huge loss of a potentially new battery ( 25k ? ) I think the best solution is the 'pre charged' liquid fillup- http://www.laptopsforlessblog.com/batteries/cambridge-crude-battery-fill-up/ http://www.laptopsforlessblog.com/batteries/cambridge-crude-... http://www.greenbang.com/a-new-way-to-charge-electric-cars-fill-er-up-with-electrolytes_12100.html http://www.greenbang.com/a-new-way-to-charge-electric-cars-f...

breakyerself 13y ago
I could definitely see that as a design challenge. Charged liquid seems like a good idea. Anything to get charge times down to what gasoline is.

gfodor 13y ago

Elon hinted an upcoming announcement that will make refueling a Tesla car as fast as a gasoline one. It's probably along the lines of this.

samolang 13y ago
Link: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/332516435488280577 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/332516435488280577
- thedrbrian 13y ago
  It's going to be spectacular to see this in action. Literally.

nostromo 13y ago

The good news is you never have to go to the gas station for day to day usage. For most people this will mean dramatically less time "filling up."

ChuckMcM 13y ago
I think this is under appreciated. Its impossible to install fuel stations near the office, its easy to install plugs. I'm waiting for the City to figure out that charging 25c a kW for charging in their parking garages is a net win for them. People plug in when they are at home (usually, our CTO is in an apartment without an easy to reach plug). In that scenario, most of the time, perhaps 90 - 95% of the time you never are 'waiting to fill up' the car is just always ready.
- batbomb 13y ago
  .25 a kW is a hell of a bargain if you are plugged in for 8 hours.
  - ChuckMcM 13y ago
    That's the thing, the last time it came up in the news it seemed San Jose had a contract with PG&E where they paid a fixed rate for power at 0.12/kWh in their facilities. If they re-sold that power for 0.25/kWh to people parking their electric vehicles, for every kWh sold the city recovers the cost of one kWh they have used. City garages get preferred by folks with electric cars (better occupancy, more revenue) and its a win. Now as this 'win' becomes more obvious we'll see sharks come in as 'contractors', bidding to 'run the garages' for $X where that number is padded by money they will make selling charge to vehicle owners. Today, this is silly since the number of electric only cars on the market is vanishingly small, but eventually it will be the norm. Having a parking meter design on the shelf that can charge for parking and supply electricity is probably good preparation for that time.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    Wow. I pay .01 per kWh in Chicago with time of day metering between noon-6am.

rayiner 13y ago

The problem is that you're thinking of a supercharger station like a gas station. You get annoyed at the 5-10 minutes it takes to fill up your gas tank because you have to do it every week, because the gasoline fumes make them very unpleasant places to be, and because you almost invariably have to fill up at frustrating times (e.g. in the afternoon so you have gas to get to work the next day). But a supercharger station isn't like a gas station. In an electric car, your routine charging is handled at home, overnight. The supercharger station is for emergencies and long trips. It's not a place you go to after a long day at work so you you can get back to work the next day, it's something you can work into your road trip, something you can combine with bathroom breaks and getting a cup of coffee. The robotic drive throughs are a lot more expensive for a questionable amount of value-add. The vast majority of people spend most of their time in a usage mode (commuting to work), where in-home charging is sufficient. But they also go on the occasional long-drive. That's the use-case supercharger stations fill. After that, what's left? Who takes long car trips (200+ miles) on such a frequent basis that a 30 minute charge in the middle (that can be easily combined with a rest-stop break) is a major inconvenience?

jd 13y ago
Exactly. Or to put it in a different way, the total time you spend waiting for your car to recharge/refuel is way lower for an electric car. The electric car is optimized for the 99% case (where recharging at home is sufficient). A gasoline car is optimized for the 1% case where you take a road trip. You get the exact same effect for people who claim they need a pickup truck instead of a small city car just so they can transport some furniture or motorcycles or a Christmas tree in the back.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  I own a Tundra short bed, but also a Lexus ct200h (wife) and a Model S. If there was an app like Uber, but for pickup trucks (on-demand/fungible capacity for transport of larger-than-car items), I'd sell my pickup truck tomorrow. I don't own the truck because I haul every day, I own it because its 8pm and someone calls and says they need help moving something right now.

mtgx 13y ago

I see your point, and I'm sure the technology will improve, but if I had to choose between "being annoyed for 5 minutes", and getting free charging for my car forever, I think the option I'd choose is obvious.

riffic 13y ago

The company doing the battery swap stations is called Better Place -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

Tuna-Fish 13y ago

The problem is that the battery is rather larger than you think. In a Model S, it runs from the front wheel base to the rear one. Removing and exchanging it would be rather a lot of work.

ams6110 13y ago
It would be a lot of work on the Tesla, but not necessarily a lot of work on a car designed with this in mind. Would require industry standard battery packs, as well.

yoster 13y ago

You're doing it wrong at 5-10 minutes. It's not good to fill up all the way. Half a tank is better. Less weight means better gas mileage.

uwe_dushan 13y ago
Full tank means fewer trips to the gas station. My time is way more valuable than the mpg savings of the half tank approach.
mikeash 13y ago
More trips to the gas station means more fuel burned going to the gas station. Do you have evidence that the savings from carrying less weight outweighs this?
masklinn 13y ago
> Half a tank is better. Less weight means better gas mileage. Half a tank is the weight of a child (gas weighs ~0.7kg/L). The mileage improvement is pretty much non-existent. Your repeated trips to gas stations probably waste more gas than this retarded scheme saves, even ignoring the time wasted.
rdl 13y ago
At the track, sure, but I try to never let my car get below half a tank in case of earthquake, personal emergency, power outage, etc.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]