12 ms·

My customer wants me to record a video of how I develop his software product

234 points by babawere 13y ago

urza 13y ago
Switch from being paid by hour to being paid by task. Client describes a project, together you split it into a list of small tasks, you assign value to each task, client agrees to it, and you get paid by task. Then it is up to you how productive you are..
- goofygrin 13y ago
  We're quickly migrating to this model. You have to be (much) better about estimating work, but switching from cost+ to value added pricing really makes better sense (and your margins increase).
e3pi 13y ago
Time to dredge up out of the tar pits `The Mythical Man Month' and video how much a few lines of debugged code are worth.
downandout 13y ago
In this case, it's probably a good idea to fire the customer. These types of outrageous requests don't exist in a vacuum. People like this are very difficult to deal with, tend to be very miserly, and will be a non-stop headache. The customer will question everything you do, why you did certain things a certain way (even if he or she has no idea what they are talking about), etc. Drop kick this customer from your life - it's not worth it.
- Devilboy 13y ago
  If the client is 'not worth it' you're just not charging enough. Just work out what your price is and send them a new quote. Don't ever fire a client, that's just silly. Make the client say no.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - mzarate06 13y ago
    I disagree. Going back and forth to reach a higher price, only to have the client say No, is a waste of time. Even if they do agree to a higher price, money can only reconcile so much. Based on bad experiences I've had with a couple clients in the past, they couldn't pay me enough to work for them again.
    - Devilboy 13y ago
      Client: Please record yourself doing the job Me: OK no problem, that will cost an extra $X Client: Ah actually don't worry about the recording
  - oelmekki 13y ago
    > Make the client say no. That's the better thing to do, but there's a problem, here : they already are in contract. Developer tried to do something that way (mentioned in update), arguing there must be an other contract for the video thing and making it way too expansive. But from what I understand, they've just felt back on first contract. Maybe in that very specific case it would be a good thing to break the deal early, because as parent mentionned, there certainly will be other problems (and reputation may be hurted more badly than if breaking the deal).
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - zorbo 13y ago
    What's the price for your mental health?
    - michaelochurch 13y ago
      At $50,000 per hour, I'd do 40 hours of work for a hideous client. We're not talking about murder or anything with risk to life. We're talking about dealing with assholes. There is a price (theoretically) that makes that OK, so long as it's time-limited. Of course, the client will almost certainly not agree to $50k per hour, but isn't that kind of the point?
- ntoshev 13y ago
  It may be a difficult client, but I can also see someone doing this out of curiosity: would it work? In a freelance relationship that is just beginning, there is not much to lose. Historically computers have made micromanagement easier. Think about company vehicles being tracked by GPS. It also enables managers to manage more people more effectively, have a flatter organisational structure. IT people are doing this to others, there is no reason to expect it wouldn't happen to us :)
scott_w 13y ago
My first thought was to reply "that's outside the contract and subject to my standard rate". What's the standard rate? £400/hour for this, including set-up time, transferring the files etc. The number doesn't even matter - just make it big enough to be worth your while in putting up with such nonsense.
polymatter 13y ago
Well, the customer is always right. I wonder if I can offer that as a competitive advantage. I'm only half-joking. I can't see how the customer will get any value out of the videos though. I guess this only makes sense if the customer is one of those bewildering people who assume programming is just typing all the time.
- corresation 13y ago
  My guess was confirmed by the post, which is that the customer is one of those "this didn't really take you n hours!" sorts, and the video is like a time log.
- michaelt 13y ago
  I can't see how the customer will get any value out of the videos though. Have you ever been in the situation where you discovered you were mis-billed for something? I certainly have. Accidental mis-charging does happen, even between parties that trust one another. Still, most businesses are willing to tolerate a certain level of error. Given that occasional mis-charging is inevitable, how can you make sure it's below the threshold you're able to tolerate if you don't maintain audit records? With that said, I'd fire the client assuming I wasn't desperate for work.
rorrr2 13y ago
Record yourself typing like mad for 10 minutes. Montage a 40-hour loop.
- babawere 13y ago
  This is one creative solution ...
- lutze 13y ago
  Just write a script that outputs "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" for 40 hours, see how that tickles him.
  - babawere 13y ago
    http://hackertyper.net http://hackertyper.net can make you look good while all you are pressing is a space bar ....
raverbashing 13y ago
Fire the customer It's not even worth the cost of justifying it. It's very simple: "I don't do this kind of service" You'll waste less time that can be put to better usage like getting other customers
dexen 13y ago
Reminds me of http://hackertyper.net/ http://hackertyper.net/ -- several characters appear for each keystroke :D
- deletes 13y ago
  I think you crashed their site :). >>Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Too many connections in /var/www/html/hackertyper/config.php on line 6 DB Error, overload!!!! Crap, system crashed :/<< Interesting how a single well placed post can achieve so much.
yoster 13y ago
Since he is wanting an outrageous demand, I would say DO IT! Before anyone disagrees, there is an upside. Since this is a stupid request, I would turn around and come up with an outrageous fee to do this. A fee so high that it would definitely get you smiling if he decided to pay you. Of course, justify that you will need this amount because of the camcorder you will need for the paper and pen work, the extra storage space, and the extra computer equipment you will need to "allow this to happen". Also, add in time to purchase this equipment, be sure to get the top of the line with markups, and add in the fees and related expenses. Be sure to get the money from the client as well so you don't get burned.
IsaacL 13y ago
This customer sounds like a bad apple and should be fired, but there is some justification for such an idea. ODesk enforces the use of their time tracking software for hourly projects. Their staff economist, John Joseph-Horton, has some interesting papers about the justification for this. He argues it is actually in the interests of freelancers to have such a system in place. Basically, freelancers prefer to be paid hourly (or daily, or whatever), rather than per-project, because clients love ratcheting and requesting endless tweaks otherwise. But clients prefer to pay per-project, so they can predict how much stuff will cost and not have to risk paying for freelancers that pad hours. ODesk's solution removes some of the risk for hourly billing, making it a more acceptable solution for clients, which works out for the benefit of freelancers. A similar concept is how companies benefit from being able to be sued. Because you can sue them if they screw you around, you feel more comfortable dealing with them.
- pnathan 13y ago
  In my screwing around with oDesk, I've selected flat per-project fees; no snooping and its a lot easier not to worry about hourly fees and angry clients imo.
vacri 13y ago
I wouldn't advice trying the technical arguments ("the video could be faked!" etc) since the client is clearly unfamiliar with freelancing and these arguments would simply serve to confuse. Either 'yes' or 'no', the 'yes' having whatever caveats you want to go with it. I've never freelanced, but I've spent a lot of time doing support, and I know what kind of personality is being dealt with here. The solution the poster has come up with is probably the best one apart from firing the customer (not always fiscally possible)
- narag 13y ago
  ...since the client is clearly unfamiliar with freelancing... That made me think of that cuatomer's employees and their working environment. I've read just the other day about a tech company over here that forces employees to have lunch at the company restaurant (with abusive prices) among many other outrageous measures. I'd say no to this kind of people, just because I don't want to make them any money.
alan_cx 13y ago
My thinking is this: If you fire the customer, then in the customer's mind (s)he was right to be concerned, and you just proved it by running away. Contract in place, signed. Keep all records of the unreasonable request and attempt to change the contract conditions. Do the work. Bill the customer. Sue if they don't pay.
- Sodel 13y ago
  If they think you're a crook from the outset, their hypothetical future confidence is not worth the effort.
- SupremumLimit 13y ago
  A lot of (most?) people don't have the time, money or inclination to sue. It's not like you can just press a button to deploy your lawyer. Have you actually done this? How did it work out?
ukandy 13y ago
You've got to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run. This clients sounds like they would be a world of pain.
amykhar 13y ago
Given that this was posted in Sept. 2011, I don't think he's waiting for suggestions from us :D
- uptown 13y ago
  Here's his update: While all those suggestions are equally valuable, I've personally chosen to say to my customer that I accept to do the videos, but in this case, we must renegotiate the contract, keeping in mind that there will be a considerable cost, including the additional fee for copyright release. The new overall cost would be in average three times the actual cost of the project. Knowing this customer, I'm completely sure that he would never accept to pay so much, so the problem is solved. Second update: The customer effectively declined the proposal to renegotiate the original contract, taking in account the considerable additional cost.
- Adirael 13y ago
  It seems that he ended up doing the work as per the original contract after telling the client the video recordings would mean paying 3x of the original amount.
hownottowrite 13y ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zE1LbC4Fvs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zE1LbC4Fvs
ZoFreX 13y ago
Something I dealt with a lot in oil & gas engineering, and have never personally witnessed in software engineering, is a "change order". The contract is signed. At this point, if you deliver on your end of the deal, they have to deliver on theirs†. If they want anything other than what is in that contract - additions, changes, removals - you send them a change order. This is a new document for both parties to sign, covering the new request, and comes with its own price tag on top of the contract already agreed. These are essential when you are engineering an actual physical product, because changing the specification of a natural gas compression plant when it's half built is very, very expensive. Change orders are an excellent tool for ensuring not that scope creep doesn't happen, but that scope creep doesn't turn a profitable project into a loss. † Of course, practically, no-one wants to take on a client that they will have to sue to get the money from. But you should know where you stand when that contract is signed - you deliver your part, they deliver theirs. You can simply say "no" to additional requests and deliver on the original.
- cmdkeen 13y ago
  Oh it happens - that is how, certainly in the UK, the large consultancies like Accenture and Cap Gemini make their large profits, especially from Government type contracts. They know that the customer will inevitably want change, especially with things like a new senior civil servant or politician wanting to "make their mark". At that point they are the only bidder, so no competition to drive down the price, and the client will generally pay whatever they ask - because it isn't their money they are spending.
- smackfu 13y ago
  This is extremely common in corporate software engineering, where a contract specifies exactly what will be delivered. In practice, those change requests are usually rejected, because the people with control of the money aren't the people using the product, and the customer ends up paying for something they aren't happy with. A lot of Agile methodologies are a response to this extremely strict change control.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
thoughtcriminal 13y ago
Just reading the question made my blood pressure rise. Yowza. No developer should ever succumb to that kind of babysitting privacy invasion.
JohnLBevan 13y ago
Surely the free market covers this? The contract specifies estimated and maximum costs for the project, and presumably includes a definition of the scope / requirements to be covered and delivery date. If the client thinks you're charging for work you're not doing then presumably they think you're too expensive, so should the two parties should agree to terminate the contract and the client should go and find someone else to build it. If they can't find a better rate then so what if you're charging them to spend a few hours a day on Facebook; the fact you're still able to deliver your side makes that irrelevant. The only issue is if the maximum cost is far beyond the estimate and there's no justification of why that may be the case beforehand. If there is good justification before hand you should be able to let the customer know if that risk's been realised and report on it immediately, giving evidence to show that this risk became a reality.
chops 13y ago
This is something I actually offer to my clients, and I do it for fun. I guess I was inspired by watching some of Notch's screencaps over a few days. So I capture it with RecordMyDesktop (I run xubuntu), and run through an ffmpeg script (https://github.com/choptastic/watchmecode https://github.com/choptastic/watchmecode) that resizes the video to be the same length as an MP3, and makes an X minute screencap montage for the client. Then it produces something like this, which I did while working on a specific feature[2] for my sports league management system[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwn7mfmo0SQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwn7mfmo0SQ In my experience, my clients basically find it interesting seeing a snippet of how a programmer works. I had one client who would show the video around in his office like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. At first, I thought the reaction was sarcastic, but I realized after the 3rd time showing another employee, and his elderly father, that he was just genuinely impressed by it. THAT SAID, if a client required this of me because they wanted to monitor me (to make sure I'm working or whatever), I'd let them know that "sure, I can do it for the most part, but I have to disable it when checking my email, and any time spend curating the video due to privacy concerns will be billed to you as well." But if a client asked it of me to satisfy their own curiosity of my workflow (which is unlikely, since I typically just volunteer it anyway), I'd be more than happy to do it. [1] http://bracketpal.com http://bracketpal.com (homepage is still embarrassingly sparse, as I've been working one-on-one with customers, a landing page redesign and online customers are coming first). [2] The video above is the screencap of the implementation of this feature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTfaSfa_dQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTfaSfa_dQ
- hawleyal 13y ago
  You are too nice.
- Swizec 13y ago
  Man, I usually just send a detailed report of what I've been up to[1], but this just takes the cake. Really cool idea! [1] puts the client at ease and ensures they don't bug me while I'm working and also reminds me that I did get things done even when it feels like the whole day just vanished somewhere in a sea of tiny obstacles
- 13y ago
ameen 13y ago
To play the devils advocate here, What if the customer wants to have a blog series on how that product was built? Key software design decisions, features, etc. What if he wanted to run this video by another software developer who only agreed to do software reviews, etc. How different would this from recording a bunch of screencasts on building a product. The customer gets knowledge of the entire build process, from the initial sketches to the final release. But most if not all of it would be too much to deal with for a freelancer and should at least incur a 3x price increase to deal with the various variables involved.
- ams6110 13y ago
  Seems pretty clear this was not the case, since they told him they didn't believe he was working. I think this is just another point in favor of NOT billing by the hour for contract work. If you are billing for the product delivered, rather than your time, it takes your work habits completely off the table.
ww520 13y ago
The customer clearly doesn't understand how creative work is done and approaches it with a factory mindset where workers are busy with their hands. A large amount of software development work are done in thinking, which appears to be inactivity to the outsiders. A lot of problems are solved while taking showers or driving. Does he want to video record those? Two approaches for this client: - Simple say no, and don't waste time trying to reason it with him. - Just say no to the project and move on.
- chris_mahan 13y ago
  A lot of my work also happens on paper, and I don't share those either, as they are my notes and designs. Anything that needs to be sent on to the customer I transfer to electrons.
antihero 13y ago
I'll keep it short and sweet: Surely if the client has already agreed the price/signed the contract, they have indicated that they are happy to pay the given amount of money for the software they are getting in return. Even if it takes you 20% of the time you quoted and you spent the other 80% masturbating and browsing reddit, it doesn't matter because it wouldn't affect the price either way.
BjoernKW 13y ago
This really makes me angry. Not only the fact that there are actually customers out there who demand such outrageous bullshit from their contractors but also that most certainly there are freelancers who put up with that sort of behaviour. What makes this all the more infuriating is that both the original poster and lots of commenters waste a considerable amount of their valuable time for justifying or coming up with a solution for weaseling out of the contract with the customer while the only reasonable answer to said customer is to bugger off.
TeeWEE 13y ago
This is a reason I just switched jobs from the services/consulting industry to a startup with a product. I just dislike working with clients. I think most software engineers prefer this. But I'm not sure.
rayiner 13y ago
This answer is great: "This is the right answer. In business, when someone asks you do something extra the correct answer is "Yes I can do that. It will cost you $X." Make the other person say no if you really don't want to do something. Charge a ridiculous amount for it. Of course, there is the danger that they will agree which is why you charge something that would still be happy with. I would probably want it up-front as well."
- learc83 13y ago
  The problem I'd have with doing this is that it would be difficult to think of a price I would be happy with. The customer sounds like the type who would use this video to nitpick everything. ------ On June 1st from 11:03-11:07 you spent your time on google searching for something called an API. I demand you deduct 4 minutes from my bill. ------ Then if you get tired of dealing with it he can trash your reputation and he has edited video to back it up. Let's face it, if someone has hundreds of hours of footage of your work, they can find problems. The whole thing sounds like a nightmare that could easily spiral out of control.
  - jaggederest 13y ago
    > The problem I'd have with doing this is that it would be difficult to think of a price I would be happy with. Just add zeroes until you get that warm fuzzy feeling. Myself, I'd be able to never work again :P
  - finnw 13y ago
    > Let's face it, if someone has hundreds of hours of footage of your work, they can find problems. Yes but they will have to spend hundreds of their own time to do that (and if they intend to sue you to get their money back, also a lawyer's time.) I wouldn't worry - they will lose their own job long before they find enough evidence to harm your reputation.
    - wikwocket 13y ago
      Do not underestimate the amount of determination or free time available to an unreasonable client. If they were able to do cost-benefits analysis and good-faith estimates of the value of someone's time, they probably would not have made a request like this to begin with. In short, do not expect reasonable behavior from unreasonable clients. :)
ianstallings 13y ago
Okay fair enough. Now how much does he want to pay for that?
lnanek2 13y ago
This is very common on remote work sites like Elance. Elance calls their version WorkView. It's not strange at all and actually beneficial for both sides of the interaction. This is because if you accept an hourly job with WorkView, Elance guarantees you'll get paid for your hours. For the employer it is obviously beneficial as well because you have more piece of mind the worker is actually spending their time working.
jroseattle 13y ago
As absurd as this situation was, it really doesn't surprise me in the least. Having been an independent consultant for several years, I've had some client requests that were real humdingers. My favorite of all-time (I'm paraphrasing, but this was a real conversation): Client: We would like a fixed-price bid on this project. Me: Well, let's talk about your project. What's the scope? Client: We're working on a list, which will grow over time. Me: Let's make sure I understand. You want a fixed price for a variable project? Client: Yes. We're budgeting $5000. Me: I'm sure I do not understand. Do you expect the entirety of work to basically be my bill rate X number of hours = $5000? Client: We expect you to manage that. The reason we're interested in a fixed-price bid is because we need to contain costs. Me: You mean contain *your* costs. Do you think there is any risk in this project from my side? Client: Only your time is at risk. Me: (face-palm)
- Avenger42 13y ago
  What's the polite way to tell them "there's not a chance I, or any other reasonable person, would consider this request" and keep the door open to future work? Or is it not worth keeping that door open?
  - aghast 13y ago
    If they're dumb enough to make that request, I bet they're dumb enough to be swindled themselves. I think you could have a lot of fun with that conversation, if you're quick with your wit. It might even be profitable, if they'll stupidly agree to something silly in a legally binding manner. Like: "Hmmm... I dunno... Well, okay. I'll charge you $5,000 to for my consultation on assembling the list. But I have to charge you a fee for each subsequent amendment to list. Once you've paid for my consultation on the list, then we can talk about the actual cost of the work itself, and whether you want to pay me to actually do anything."
  - acdha 13y ago
    I used to give them one attempt at education as to why software development isn't off-the-shelf if it seemed reasonable that they might simply be new to that sort of project. In practice, though, it was almost always the case that they were simply being unrealistic and hoping to find someone new / desperate who would give them more than what they paid for.
wtvanhest 13y ago
You are looking at this as a problem rather than an opportunity. If I were in your shoes I would calmly explain that you do offer video of the coding in the condensed form that the HN person 'chops' shows. That service of offering the video will cost $X more per hour to implement and you would be happy to rewrite the contract to include that service.
nsxwolf 13y ago
Just send him an endless loop of the scene in Swordfish where Hugh Jackman is coding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_O4AD1MhI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_O4AD1MhI
- realdlee 13y ago
  It is an amazingly realistic depiction of life as a software programmer. "No, no....yes!"
spacecowboy 13y ago
This reminds me of an observation I made while out at lunch one day. I was at a local restaurant having lunch and realized that two tables away, there were some of the ladies who were janitors at my work. After a couple of minutes of over hearing them talk about my work place, they were pretty outspoken, one of them said "....and they just sit there and stare at the screen all day......and they get paid all this money - I don't get it...."
mcintyre1994 13y ago
I don't understand why this customer signed a contract with somebody they believe to be a crook. Surely not doing that is in hypothetical don't get yourself scammed to oblivion 101?
forgottenpaswrd 13y ago
As a past software manager of a elite team(of super smart people, engineers, phDs) and developer myself: Never do that, say NO. Don't try to justify it. Don't lose your time with this person, don't lose emotional energy. It is one thing to be efficient, another to "look efficient". You can be not efficient but look like you are or the contrary, specially when your client don't have a clue in software. The reason this customer wants the video is to go against you, as you said, he already does not trust you. When you do, he is going to go and say: look, you are not working 80% of the time, so I am paying you 20%. Probably he already have plans for doing that. He probably does not have the money, or the organization changed plans and don't need the software as much as when the agreement was done and wants to backpedal with any excuse.
tekromancr 13y ago
I would be afraid of leaving it on when I am done working and giving the client an overly intimate glimpse into my personal life
neogodless 13y ago
What is your customer paying you to provide? I've had an issue with "time-based" cost for a long time. I've done freelance work since 2001, and I use time to estimate my projects (very roughly) and even to invoice it (based on what I had estimated for them). Many clients are comfortable with that. On larger projects, I even paid other developers and had them submit their time to get paid. But I have never tracked my own time or outlined it for a client. In fact, with those other developers, I just wanted to know "how much" time they spent so I could pay them. The applications we worked on had the features implemented as requested. The client was happy with what was delivered to them. While I did not track my time, I often found that I spent less time than I estimated. I say that because my freelance was on some evenings and weekends, and it simply didn't add up to a great amount of time. Once, I had a client over time, that often paid late, and we stopped working together when he had an outstanding bill. Much later, he contacted me with an urgent request. I got up front payment for twice what I estimated. Then I dug into the project and completed it in a tiny fraction of the time it took me to do it. If you contractually agree to give clients "dedicated time being truly productive towards creating the requested end result", then I suppose you really need to be meticulous about tracking your time and providing records of how that time was used to move the project forward. I'd really rather not get in the habit of selling my time at all. I'm selling my ability to reach your objective, to build what you want to use. We'll define to the best of our ability what I'll be providing to you, we'll agree on the price, and then we'll measure our success on my delivery to you and your payment to me. What happens in between is of my concern, and it is in my best interest to spend my time effectively and perform efficiently.
ebbv 13y ago
I'd say "Sure thing, you send me a video of your 8 hour work day and I'll send you one of mine."
- neogodless 13y ago
  Yes - I need to see where this money you're going to pay me with is coming from. Each step of the process. Please trace it back to when the money was printed while you're at it and include all labor and transactions that took place since then that made it possible today for you to transfer it me.
podperson 13y ago
This is part of a common trap in contracts and employer relationships, which is measuring and paying for the wrong thing. In this case it's time. Afraid you're being ripped off by a contractor? Write the contract so that you only pay in acceptable increments against the deliverables you want at a price you're happy to pay. We once had a client request we deploy software across all desktop computers to measure how many keystrokes each user made, how often their screen saver was on, etc. I pointed out that they were already measuring employee activities such as calls answered, customer satisfaction, policies not surrendered (i.e. customers planning to sever their accounts who were retained) etc. why measure and reward activities when you were measuring and could reward results?
losethos 13y ago
God is my customer. I am done. Once I prove God, I need prove nothing else. God says... 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? 7:12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. ---- I was denied my window on the Market. I guess God's gonna have to kill people and stuff to bring His temple back to working order.
OldSchool 13y ago
Experience says the only solution to a situation like this is to fire the customer and likely refund any money taken already, no matter how much sunk cost you have. Long-term, purging yourself of a toxic customer is at least as valuable as gaining a new one. For added points, direct him to your competition.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
a3n 13y ago
"I'm going to sue you later. Please collect evidence for me."

234 points by babawere 13y ago

urza 13y ago

Switch from being paid by hour to being paid by task. Client describes a project, together you split it into a list of small tasks, you assign value to each task, client agrees to it, and you get paid by task. Then it is up to you how productive you are..

goofygrin 13y ago
We're quickly migrating to this model. You have to be (much) better about estimating work, but switching from cost+ to value added pricing really makes better sense (and your margins increase).

e3pi 13y ago

Time to dredge up out of the tar pits `The Mythical Man Month' and video how much a few lines of debugged code are worth.

downandout 13y ago

In this case, it's probably a good idea to fire the customer. These types of outrageous requests don't exist in a vacuum. People like this are very difficult to deal with, tend to be very miserly, and will be a non-stop headache. The customer will question everything you do, why you did certain things a certain way (even if he or she has no idea what they are talking about), etc. Drop kick this customer from your life - it's not worth it.

Devilboy 13y ago
If the client is 'not worth it' you're just not charging enough. Just work out what your price is and send them a new quote. Don't ever fire a client, that's just silly. Make the client say no.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- mzarate06 13y ago
  I disagree. Going back and forth to reach a higher price, only to have the client say No, is a waste of time. Even if they do agree to a higher price, money can only reconcile so much. Based on bad experiences I've had with a couple clients in the past, they couldn't pay me enough to work for them again.
  - Devilboy 13y ago
    Client: Please record yourself doing the job Me: OK no problem, that will cost an extra $X Client: Ah actually don't worry about the recording
- oelmekki 13y ago
  > Make the client say no. That's the better thing to do, but there's a problem, here : they already are in contract. Developer tried to do something that way (mentioned in update), arguing there must be an other contract for the video thing and making it way too expansive. But from what I understand, they've just felt back on first contract. Maybe in that very specific case it would be a good thing to break the deal early, because as parent mentionned, there certainly will be other problems (and reputation may be hurted more badly than if breaking the deal).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- zorbo 13y ago
  What's the price for your mental health?
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    At $50,000 per hour, I'd do 40 hours of work for a hideous client. We're not talking about murder or anything with risk to life. We're talking about dealing with assholes. There is a price (theoretically) that makes that OK, so long as it's time-limited. Of course, the client will almost certainly not agree to $50k per hour, but isn't that kind of the point?
ntoshev 13y ago
It may be a difficult client, but I can also see someone doing this out of curiosity: would it work? In a freelance relationship that is just beginning, there is not much to lose. Historically computers have made micromanagement easier. Think about company vehicles being tracked by GPS. It also enables managers to manage more people more effectively, have a flatter organisational structure. IT people are doing this to others, there is no reason to expect it wouldn't happen to us :)

scott_w 13y ago

My first thought was to reply "that's outside the contract and subject to my standard rate". What's the standard rate? £400/hour for this, including set-up time, transferring the files etc. The number doesn't even matter - just make it big enough to be worth your while in putting up with such nonsense.

polymatter 13y ago

Well, the customer is always right. I wonder if I can offer that as a competitive advantage. I'm only half-joking. I can't see how the customer will get any value out of the videos though. I guess this only makes sense if the customer is one of those bewildering people who assume programming is just typing all the time.

corresation 13y ago
My guess was confirmed by the post, which is that the customer is one of those "this didn't really take you n hours!" sorts, and the video is like a time log.
michaelt 13y ago
I can't see how the customer will get any value out of the videos though. Have you ever been in the situation where you discovered you were mis-billed for something? I certainly have. Accidental mis-charging does happen, even between parties that trust one another. Still, most businesses are willing to tolerate a certain level of error. Given that occasional mis-charging is inevitable, how can you make sure it's below the threshold you're able to tolerate if you don't maintain audit records? With that said, I'd fire the client assuming I wasn't desperate for work.

rorrr2 13y ago

Record yourself typing like mad for 10 minutes. Montage a 40-hour loop.

babawere 13y ago
This is one creative solution ...
lutze 13y ago
Just write a script that outputs "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" for 40 hours, see how that tickles him.
- babawere 13y ago
  http://hackertyper.net http://hackertyper.net can make you look good while all you are pressing is a space bar ....

raverbashing 13y ago

Fire the customer It's not even worth the cost of justifying it. It's very simple: "I don't do this kind of service" You'll waste less time that can be put to better usage like getting other customers

dexen 13y ago

Reminds me of http://hackertyper.net/ http://hackertyper.net/ -- several characters appear for each keystroke :D

deletes 13y ago
I think you crashed their site :). >>Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Too many connections in /var/www/html/hackertyper/config.php on line 6 DB Error, overload!!!! Crap, system crashed :/<< Interesting how a single well placed post can achieve so much.

yoster 13y ago

Since he is wanting an outrageous demand, I would say DO IT! Before anyone disagrees, there is an upside. Since this is a stupid request, I would turn around and come up with an outrageous fee to do this. A fee so high that it would definitely get you smiling if he decided to pay you. Of course, justify that you will need this amount because of the camcorder you will need for the paper and pen work, the extra storage space, and the extra computer equipment you will need to "allow this to happen". Also, add in time to purchase this equipment, be sure to get the top of the line with markups, and add in the fees and related expenses. Be sure to get the money from the client as well so you don't get burned.

IsaacL 13y ago

This customer sounds like a bad apple and should be fired, but there is some justification for such an idea. ODesk enforces the use of their time tracking software for hourly projects. Their staff economist, John Joseph-Horton, has some interesting papers about the justification for this. He argues it is actually in the interests of freelancers to have such a system in place. Basically, freelancers prefer to be paid hourly (or daily, or whatever), rather than per-project, because clients love ratcheting and requesting endless tweaks otherwise. But clients prefer to pay per-project, so they can predict how much stuff will cost and not have to risk paying for freelancers that pad hours. ODesk's solution removes some of the risk for hourly billing, making it a more acceptable solution for clients, which works out for the benefit of freelancers. A similar concept is how companies benefit from being able to be sued. Because you can sue them if they screw you around, you feel more comfortable dealing with them.

pnathan 13y ago
In my screwing around with oDesk, I've selected flat per-project fees; no snooping and its a lot easier not to worry about hourly fees and angry clients imo.

vacri 13y ago

I wouldn't advice trying the technical arguments ("the video could be faked!" etc) since the client is clearly unfamiliar with freelancing and these arguments would simply serve to confuse. Either 'yes' or 'no', the 'yes' having whatever caveats you want to go with it. I've never freelanced, but I've spent a lot of time doing support, and I know what kind of personality is being dealt with here. The solution the poster has come up with is probably the best one apart from firing the customer (not always fiscally possible)

narag 13y ago
...since the client is clearly unfamiliar with freelancing... That made me think of that cuatomer's employees and their working environment. I've read just the other day about a tech company over here that forces employees to have lunch at the company restaurant (with abusive prices) among many other outrageous measures. I'd say no to this kind of people, just because I don't want to make them any money.

alan_cx 13y ago

My thinking is this: If you fire the customer, then in the customer's mind (s)he was right to be concerned, and you just proved it by running away. Contract in place, signed. Keep all records of the unreasonable request and attempt to change the contract conditions. Do the work. Bill the customer. Sue if they don't pay.

Sodel 13y ago
If they think you're a crook from the outset, their hypothetical future confidence is not worth the effort.
SupremumLimit 13y ago
A lot of (most?) people don't have the time, money or inclination to sue. It's not like you can just press a button to deploy your lawyer. Have you actually done this? How did it work out?

ukandy 13y ago

You've got to know when to hold 'em. Know when to fold 'em. Know when to walk away. Know when to run. This clients sounds like they would be a world of pain.

amykhar 13y ago

Given that this was posted in Sept. 2011, I don't think he's waiting for suggestions from us :D

uptown 13y ago
Here's his update: While all those suggestions are equally valuable, I've personally chosen to say to my customer that I accept to do the videos, but in this case, we must renegotiate the contract, keeping in mind that there will be a considerable cost, including the additional fee for copyright release. The new overall cost would be in average three times the actual cost of the project. Knowing this customer, I'm completely sure that he would never accept to pay so much, so the problem is solved. Second update: The customer effectively declined the proposal to renegotiate the original contract, taking in account the considerable additional cost.
Adirael 13y ago
It seems that he ended up doing the work as per the original contract after telling the client the video recordings would mean paying 3x of the original amount.

hownottowrite 13y ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zE1LbC4Fvs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zE1LbC4Fvs

ZoFreX 13y ago

Something I dealt with a lot in oil & gas engineering, and have never personally witnessed in software engineering, is a "change order". The contract is signed. At this point, if you deliver on your end of the deal, they have to deliver on theirs†. If they want anything other than what is in that contract - additions, changes, removals - you send them a change order. This is a new document for both parties to sign, covering the new request, and comes with its own price tag on top of the contract already agreed. These are essential when you are engineering an actual physical product, because changing the specification of a natural gas compression plant when it's half built is very, very expensive. Change orders are an excellent tool for ensuring not that scope creep doesn't happen, but that scope creep doesn't turn a profitable project into a loss. † Of course, practically, no-one wants to take on a client that they will have to sue to get the money from. But you should know where you stand when that contract is signed - you deliver your part, they deliver theirs. You can simply say "no" to additional requests and deliver on the original.

cmdkeen 13y ago
Oh it happens - that is how, certainly in the UK, the large consultancies like Accenture and Cap Gemini make their large profits, especially from Government type contracts. They know that the customer will inevitably want change, especially with things like a new senior civil servant or politician wanting to "make their mark". At that point they are the only bidder, so no competition to drive down the price, and the client will generally pay whatever they ask - because it isn't their money they are spending.
smackfu 13y ago
This is extremely common in corporate software engineering, where a contract specifies exactly what will be delivered. In practice, those change requests are usually rejected, because the people with control of the money aren't the people using the product, and the customer ends up paying for something they aren't happy with. A lot of Agile methodologies are a response to this extremely strict change control.
- mindcrime 13y ago

thoughtcriminal 13y ago

Just reading the question made my blood pressure rise. Yowza. No developer should ever succumb to that kind of babysitting privacy invasion.

JohnLBevan 13y ago

Surely the free market covers this? The contract specifies estimated and maximum costs for the project, and presumably includes a definition of the scope / requirements to be covered and delivery date. If the client thinks you're charging for work you're not doing then presumably they think you're too expensive, so should the two parties should agree to terminate the contract and the client should go and find someone else to build it. If they can't find a better rate then so what if you're charging them to spend a few hours a day on Facebook; the fact you're still able to deliver your side makes that irrelevant. The only issue is if the maximum cost is far beyond the estimate and there's no justification of why that may be the case beforehand. If there is good justification before hand you should be able to let the customer know if that risk's been realised and report on it immediately, giving evidence to show that this risk became a reality.

chops 13y ago

This is something I actually offer to my clients, and I do it for fun. I guess I was inspired by watching some of Notch's screencaps over a few days. So I capture it with RecordMyDesktop (I run xubuntu), and run through an ffmpeg script (https://github.com/choptastic/watchmecode https://github.com/choptastic/watchmecode) that resizes the video to be the same length as an MP3, and makes an X minute screencap montage for the client. Then it produces something like this, which I did while working on a specific feature[2] for my sports league management system[1]: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwn7mfmo0SQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwn7mfmo0SQ In my experience, my clients basically find it interesting seeing a snippet of how a programmer works. I had one client who would show the video around in his office like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. At first, I thought the reaction was sarcastic, but I realized after the 3rd time showing another employee, and his elderly father, that he was just genuinely impressed by it. THAT SAID, if a client required this of me because they wanted to monitor me (to make sure I'm working or whatever), I'd let them know that "sure, I can do it for the most part, but I have to disable it when checking my email, and any time spend curating the video due to privacy concerns will be billed to you as well." But if a client asked it of me to satisfy their own curiosity of my workflow (which is unlikely, since I typically just volunteer it anyway), I'd be more than happy to do it. [1] http://bracketpal.com http://bracketpal.com (homepage is still embarrassingly sparse, as I've been working one-on-one with customers, a landing page redesign and online customers are coming first). [2] The video above is the screencap of the implementation of this feature: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTfaSfa_dQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxTfaSfa_dQ

hawleyal 13y ago
You are too nice.
Swizec 13y ago
Man, I usually just send a detailed report of what I've been up to[1], but this just takes the cake. Really cool idea! [1] puts the client at ease and ensures they don't bug me while I'm working and also reminds me that I did get things done even when it feels like the whole day just vanished somewhere in a sea of tiny obstacles
13y ago

ameen 13y ago

To play the devils advocate here, What if the customer wants to have a blog series on how that product was built? Key software design decisions, features, etc. What if he wanted to run this video by another software developer who only agreed to do software reviews, etc. How different would this from recording a bunch of screencasts on building a product. The customer gets knowledge of the entire build process, from the initial sketches to the final release. But most if not all of it would be too much to deal with for a freelancer and should at least incur a 3x price increase to deal with the various variables involved.

ams6110 13y ago
Seems pretty clear this was not the case, since they told him they didn't believe he was working. I think this is just another point in favor of NOT billing by the hour for contract work. If you are billing for the product delivered, rather than your time, it takes your work habits completely off the table.

ww520 13y ago

The customer clearly doesn't understand how creative work is done and approaches it with a factory mindset where workers are busy with their hands. A large amount of software development work are done in thinking, which appears to be inactivity to the outsiders. A lot of problems are solved while taking showers or driving. Does he want to video record those? Two approaches for this client: - Simple say no, and don't waste time trying to reason it with him. - Just say no to the project and move on.

chris_mahan 13y ago
A lot of my work also happens on paper, and I don't share those either, as they are my notes and designs. Anything that needs to be sent on to the customer I transfer to electrons.

antihero 13y ago

I'll keep it short and sweet: Surely if the client has already agreed the price/signed the contract, they have indicated that they are happy to pay the given amount of money for the software they are getting in return. Even if it takes you 20% of the time you quoted and you spent the other 80% masturbating and browsing reddit, it doesn't matter because it wouldn't affect the price either way.

BjoernKW 13y ago

This really makes me angry. Not only the fact that there are actually customers out there who demand such outrageous bullshit from their contractors but also that most certainly there are freelancers who put up with that sort of behaviour. What makes this all the more infuriating is that both the original poster and lots of commenters waste a considerable amount of their valuable time for justifying or coming up with a solution for weaseling out of the contract with the customer while the only reasonable answer to said customer is to bugger off.

TeeWEE 13y ago

This is a reason I just switched jobs from the services/consulting industry to a startup with a product. I just dislike working with clients. I think most software engineers prefer this. But I'm not sure.

rayiner 13y ago

This answer is great: "This is the right answer. In business, when someone asks you do something extra the correct answer is "Yes I can do that. It will cost you $X." Make the other person say no if you really don't want to do something. Charge a ridiculous amount for it. Of course, there is the danger that they will agree which is why you charge something that would still be happy with. I would probably want it up-front as well."

learc83 13y ago
The problem I'd have with doing this is that it would be difficult to think of a price I would be happy with. The customer sounds like the type who would use this video to nitpick everything. ------ On June 1st from 11:03-11:07 you spent your time on google searching for something called an API. I demand you deduct 4 minutes from my bill. ------ Then if you get tired of dealing with it he can trash your reputation and he has edited video to back it up. Let's face it, if someone has hundreds of hours of footage of your work, they can find problems. The whole thing sounds like a nightmare that could easily spiral out of control.
- jaggederest 13y ago
  > The problem I'd have with doing this is that it would be difficult to think of a price I would be happy with. Just add zeroes until you get that warm fuzzy feeling. Myself, I'd be able to never work again :P
- finnw 13y ago
  > Let's face it, if someone has hundreds of hours of footage of your work, they can find problems. Yes but they will have to spend hundreds of their own time to do that (and if they intend to sue you to get their money back, also a lawyer's time.) I wouldn't worry - they will lose their own job long before they find enough evidence to harm your reputation.
  - wikwocket 13y ago
    Do not underestimate the amount of determination or free time available to an unreasonable client. If they were able to do cost-benefits analysis and good-faith estimates of the value of someone's time, they probably would not have made a request like this to begin with. In short, do not expect reasonable behavior from unreasonable clients. :)

ianstallings 13y ago

Okay fair enough. Now how much does he want to pay for that?

lnanek2 13y ago

This is very common on remote work sites like Elance. Elance calls their version WorkView. It's not strange at all and actually beneficial for both sides of the interaction. This is because if you accept an hourly job with WorkView, Elance guarantees you'll get paid for your hours. For the employer it is obviously beneficial as well because you have more piece of mind the worker is actually spending their time working.

jroseattle 13y ago

As absurd as this situation was, it really doesn't surprise me in the least. Having been an independent consultant for several years, I've had some client requests that were real humdingers. My favorite of all-time (I'm paraphrasing, but this was a real conversation): Client: We would like a fixed-price bid on this project. Me: Well, let's talk about your project. What's the scope? Client: We're working on a list, which will grow over time. Me: Let's make sure I understand. You want a fixed price for a variable project? Client: Yes. We're budgeting $5000. Me: I'm sure I do not understand. Do you expect the entirety of work to basically be my bill rate X number of hours = $5000? Client: We expect you to manage that. The reason we're interested in a fixed-price bid is because we need to contain costs. Me: You mean contain *your* costs. Do you think there is any risk in this project from my side? Client: Only your time is at risk. Me: (face-palm)

Avenger42 13y ago
What's the polite way to tell them "there's not a chance I, or any other reasonable person, would consider this request" and keep the door open to future work? Or is it not worth keeping that door open?
- aghast 13y ago
  If they're dumb enough to make that request, I bet they're dumb enough to be swindled themselves. I think you could have a lot of fun with that conversation, if you're quick with your wit. It might even be profitable, if they'll stupidly agree to something silly in a legally binding manner. Like: "Hmmm... I dunno... Well, okay. I'll charge you $5,000 to for my consultation on assembling the list. But I have to charge you a fee for each subsequent amendment to list. Once you've paid for my consultation on the list, then we can talk about the actual cost of the work itself, and whether you want to pay me to actually do anything."
- acdha 13y ago
  I used to give them one attempt at education as to why software development isn't off-the-shelf if it seemed reasonable that they might simply be new to that sort of project. In practice, though, it was almost always the case that they were simply being unrealistic and hoping to find someone new / desperate who would give them more than what they paid for.

wtvanhest 13y ago

You are looking at this as a problem rather than an opportunity. If I were in your shoes I would calmly explain that you do offer video of the coding in the condensed form that the HN person 'chops' shows. That service of offering the video will cost $X more per hour to implement and you would be happy to rewrite the contract to include that service.

nsxwolf 13y ago

Just send him an endless loop of the scene in Swordfish where Hugh Jackman is coding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_O4AD1MhI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO_O4AD1MhI

realdlee 13y ago
It is an amazingly realistic depiction of life as a software programmer. "No, no....yes!"

spacecowboy 13y ago

This reminds me of an observation I made while out at lunch one day. I was at a local restaurant having lunch and realized that two tables away, there were some of the ladies who were janitors at my work. After a couple of minutes of over hearing them talk about my work place, they were pretty outspoken, one of them said "....and they just sit there and stare at the screen all day......and they get paid all this money - I don't get it...."

mcintyre1994 13y ago

I don't understand why this customer signed a contract with somebody they believe to be a crook. Surely not doing that is in hypothetical don't get yourself scammed to oblivion 101?

forgottenpaswrd 13y ago

As a past software manager of a elite team(of super smart people, engineers, phDs) and developer myself: Never do that, say NO. Don't try to justify it. Don't lose your time with this person, don't lose emotional energy. It is one thing to be efficient, another to "look efficient". You can be not efficient but look like you are or the contrary, specially when your client don't have a clue in software. The reason this customer wants the video is to go against you, as you said, he already does not trust you. When you do, he is going to go and say: look, you are not working 80% of the time, so I am paying you 20%. Probably he already have plans for doing that. He probably does not have the money, or the organization changed plans and don't need the software as much as when the agreement was done and wants to backpedal with any excuse.

tekromancr 13y ago

I would be afraid of leaving it on when I am done working and giving the client an overly intimate glimpse into my personal life

neogodless 13y ago

What is your customer paying you to provide? I've had an issue with "time-based" cost for a long time. I've done freelance work since 2001, and I use time to estimate my projects (very roughly) and even to invoice it (based on what I had estimated for them). Many clients are comfortable with that. On larger projects, I even paid other developers and had them submit their time to get paid. But I have never tracked my own time or outlined it for a client. In fact, with those other developers, I just wanted to know "how much" time they spent so I could pay them. The applications we worked on had the features implemented as requested. The client was happy with what was delivered to them. While I did not track my time, I often found that I spent less time than I estimated. I say that because my freelance was on some evenings and weekends, and it simply didn't add up to a great amount of time. Once, I had a client over time, that often paid late, and we stopped working together when he had an outstanding bill. Much later, he contacted me with an urgent request. I got up front payment for twice what I estimated. Then I dug into the project and completed it in a tiny fraction of the time it took me to do it. If you contractually agree to give clients "dedicated time being truly productive towards creating the requested end result", then I suppose you really need to be meticulous about tracking your time and providing records of how that time was used to move the project forward. I'd really rather not get in the habit of selling my time at all. I'm selling my ability to reach your objective, to build what you want to use. We'll define to the best of our ability what I'll be providing to you, we'll agree on the price, and then we'll measure our success on my delivery to you and your payment to me. What happens in between is of my concern, and it is in my best interest to spend my time effectively and perform efficiently.

ebbv 13y ago

I'd say "Sure thing, you send me a video of your 8 hour work day and I'll send you one of mine."

neogodless 13y ago
Yes - I need to see where this money you're going to pay me with is coming from. Each step of the process. Please trace it back to when the money was printed while you're at it and include all labor and transactions that took place since then that made it possible today for you to transfer it me.

podperson 13y ago

This is part of a common trap in contracts and employer relationships, which is measuring and paying for the wrong thing. In this case it's time. Afraid you're being ripped off by a contractor? Write the contract so that you only pay in acceptable increments against the deliverables you want at a price you're happy to pay. We once had a client request we deploy software across all desktop computers to measure how many keystrokes each user made, how often their screen saver was on, etc. I pointed out that they were already measuring employee activities such as calls answered, customer satisfaction, policies not surrendered (i.e. customers planning to sever their accounts who were retained) etc. why measure and reward activities when you were measuring and could reward results?

losethos 13y ago

God is my customer. I am done. Once I prove God, I need prove nothing else. God says... 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 7:6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. 7:9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. 7:11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? 7:12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. ---- I was denied my window on the Market. I guess God's gonna have to kill people and stuff to bring His temple back to working order.

OldSchool 13y ago

Experience says the only solution to a situation like this is to fire the customer and likely refund any money taken already, no matter how much sunk cost you have. Long-term, purging yourself of a toxic customer is at least as valuable as gaining a new one. For added points, direct him to your competition.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

a3n 13y ago

"I'm going to sue you later. Please collect evidence for me."