7 ms·

"Worrying about bandwidth, memory, and processing power (in user space) is no longer relevant." What? Am I missing something, or is this a colossally irrespons

"Worrying about bandwidth, memory, and processing power (in user space) is no longer relevant." What? Am I missing something, or is this a colossally irresponsible and narrow-minded way to approach software development?

tsunamifury 13y ago
Yes he doesn't seem to realize that the larger the app the harder it is to scale i.e. thousands of requests per second for a <1mb HTML5 app could be a serious scaling problem. Not to mention his complete ignorance of the variable bandwidth of mobile devices.
- dvt 13y ago
  Scaling a service has nothing to do with client size. Like, literally nothing.
  - waxjar 13y ago
    It has something to do with the size of your app, though.
    - wnsnw 13y ago
      No, it doesn't. Size of application can correlate strongly with complexity and thus number of queries to the server, but there is nothing that dictates a 1.44MB+ HTML5 application ever even touches a server.
      - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        Aside from uhh.. DOWNLOADING the app. from. the. server. Unless you are imagining those files magic themselves onto your local machine somehow?
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        We're talking about static files, right? If you're trying to scale those should be nowhere near your application server. They get served from a CDN and the size is completely irrelevant to technical scaling issues.
        TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        Because CDN's are magic and have zero cost?
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        Money is easy. It's not part of the difficulty of scaling. 1000x the static traffic means 1000x the bandwidth heading to simple, independent, easy to load balance servers. Difficulty added per user: zero. Cost per user: the same or less. There are many reasons to want small files, but scaling isn't one of them.
        wnsnw 13y ago
        Indeed. Downloading the app. A one-time cost. No, I'm not imagining anything - are you?
        TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        A one time cost in a universe where your app never changes, CDNs cost nothing, and browsers have perfect caches, and everyone ubiquitously uses the localstorage and app-cache html5 apis.
      - waxjar 13y ago
        Not everyone has a blazingly fast internet connection. I don't, even Hackernews loads slow for me at times. If you want to scale, you'll have to reach me at some point and you won't reach me with a huge app that takes me 30 seconds to load.
dvt 13y ago
Not at all. There's a very clear trend of micro-optimization obsession. It's funny to see how many questions on SO deal with absolutely silly micro-optimization issues when the rest of the code-base has much bigger problems. Worrying about micro-optimizations (like making sure the size of your code is <= 1.44mb) takes time away from worrying about more important issues.
- potch 13y ago
  Ensuring your app loads quickly over the network is definitely an optimization, but to call it a micro-optimization is wrong. Size on the wire for html5 apps (frequently loaded over mobile connections) is completely relevant.
  - dvt 13y ago
    3g is virtually ubiquitous. And building an app having weird contingencies in mind (atrocious wifi connections, 5 billion people downloading simultaneously, downloading from outer space, etc.) is not good engineering. Unless you like spending time in development hell. "Oh no, our application can't be simultaneously downloaded by 3 million martians because our client is too big." I'm being facetious, of course, but I think the point applies. Don't build stuff with weird contingencies in mind. The average user (of an HTML5 app) will not have to worry about processing power, bandwidth, or client size. As long as it's not like 20mb or something stupid.
    - discreteevent 13y ago
      I'm reading your comment on an intermittent 2.5 g connection.
    - ricardobeat 13y ago
      It is well known that lower response times increase conversions and reduce abandonment on any website. There is absolutely no reason for a website to cross the 1-2mb threshold unless it's a huge web application, a game or image-based app, or is serving you hi-res photos. And, obviously, websites are accessed from all kinds of connections. Not everyone has a generous 3G plan, and even the US doesn't rank that well in average broadband speeds.

tsunamifury 13y ago

Yes he doesn't seem to realize that the larger the app the harder it is to scale i.e. thousands of requests per second for a <1mb HTML5 app could be a serious scaling problem. Not to mention his complete ignorance of the variable bandwidth of mobile devices.

dvt 13y ago
Scaling a service has nothing to do with client size. Like, literally nothing.
- waxjar 13y ago
  It has something to do with the size of your app, though.
  - wnsnw 13y ago
    No, it doesn't. Size of application can correlate strongly with complexity and thus number of queries to the server, but there is nothing that dictates a 1.44MB+ HTML5 application ever even touches a server.
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      Aside from uhh.. DOWNLOADING the app. from. the. server. Unless you are imagining those files magic themselves onto your local machine somehow?
      - Dylan16807 13y ago
        We're talking about static files, right? If you're trying to scale those should be nowhere near your application server. They get served from a CDN and the size is completely irrelevant to technical scaling issues.
        TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        Because CDN's are magic and have zero cost?
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        Money is easy. It's not part of the difficulty of scaling. 1000x the static traffic means 1000x the bandwidth heading to simple, independent, easy to load balance servers. Difficulty added per user: zero. Cost per user: the same or less. There are many reasons to want small files, but scaling isn't one of them.
      - wnsnw 13y ago
        Indeed. Downloading the app. A one-time cost. No, I'm not imagining anything - are you?
        TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        A one time cost in a universe where your app never changes, CDNs cost nothing, and browsers have perfect caches, and everyone ubiquitously uses the localstorage and app-cache html5 apis.
    - waxjar 13y ago
      Not everyone has a blazingly fast internet connection. I don't, even Hackernews loads slow for me at times. If you want to scale, you'll have to reach me at some point and you won't reach me with a huge app that takes me 30 seconds to load.

dvt 13y ago

Not at all. There's a very clear trend of micro-optimization obsession. It's funny to see how many questions on SO deal with absolutely silly micro-optimization issues when the rest of the code-base has much bigger problems. Worrying about micro-optimizations (like making sure the size of your code is <= 1.44mb) takes time away from worrying about more important issues.

potch 13y ago
Ensuring your app loads quickly over the network is definitely an optimization, but to call it a micro-optimization is wrong. Size on the wire for html5 apps (frequently loaded over mobile connections) is completely relevant.
- dvt 13y ago
  3g is virtually ubiquitous. And building an app having weird contingencies in mind (atrocious wifi connections, 5 billion people downloading simultaneously, downloading from outer space, etc.) is not good engineering. Unless you like spending time in development hell. "Oh no, our application can't be simultaneously downloaded by 3 million martians because our client is too big." I'm being facetious, of course, but I think the point applies. Don't build stuff with weird contingencies in mind. The average user (of an HTML5 app) will not have to worry about processing power, bandwidth, or client size. As long as it's not like 20mb or something stupid.
  - discreteevent 13y ago
    I'm reading your comment on an intermittent 2.5 g connection.
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    It is well known that lower response times increase conversions and reduce abandonment on any website. There is absolutely no reason for a website to cross the 1-2mb threshold unless it's a huge web application, a game or image-based app, or is serving you hi-res photos. And, obviously, websites are accessed from all kinds of connections. Not everyone has a generous 3G plan, and even the US doesn't rank that well in average broadband speeds.