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Alternately: NYC doesn't really want to encourage a bunch of trucks to idle their 2MPG diesel engines all day while serving $10 waffles to ignorant tourists. T
by jellicle 14y ago
Alternately: NYC doesn't really want to encourage a bunch of trucks to idle their 2MPG diesel engines all day while serving $10 waffles to ignorant tourists.
The idea of a "food truck" is based on trying to cheat the system. The system is: you have to buy or rent property in order to locate a business there. However, the system has a loophole: large swathes of the city are designated as roads, sidewalks, highways (which is a technical term for the road allowance). These areas of the city are completely free to use, for anyone, on the condition that it's a short-term, passing-through, sort of use.
So Mr. Brilliant says, "Hey! What if I just take over part of this free-to-use area without paying? I'll be able to charge as much as a property-leasing restaurant, but I'll get my land for free! I'll make a killing!"
Except the city has self-defense measures against people who try to do that. They're called tow trucks and bylaw inspectors. Because your business model is not actually innovative or new but has been around since the dawn of cities.
And so the white blood cells of the city harass the invading parasites that are trying to damage the city's ability to function, and life goes on, evermore and without end.
- jdminhbg 14y ago> The system is: you have to buy or rent property in order to locate a business there. This is where you begged the question.
- nijk 14y agoThis where you win the billion dollar Internet sweepstakes for the first correct use of Beg the Question in a forum post. Well done.
- IsaacL 14y agoI could care less about the correct use of "beg the question".
- mayneack 14y agoBy not commenting.
- Cushman 14y agoLiterally.
- Cushman 14y agoWorth it. Edit: This one too.
- jwoah12 14y agoHe used it correctly irregardless of your caring less.
- hdxuyx 14y ago>>irregardless regardless
- sliverstorm 14y agoI think that may have been a joke
- jwoah12 14y agoCorrect.
- MrMan 14y agohe said he "could care less," not that he did care less. this kind of sloppyness is emblematic of HN's decline. not to mention the fact that what does food trucks has to do with HN?
- pjungwir 14y agoCouldn't care less (as long as we're being pedantic).
- scarmig 14y agoI'll toss a dollar in the reward jar. Pass it around!
- yummyfajitas 14y agoI've never seen a food truck with the engine on while serving. The waffles (with 1 dinges) are $6 and popular among tourists and locals alike, simply because they are really good (i.e., mop the floor with Bobby Flay good http://midtownlunch.com/2010/01/21/wafels-waffles-dinges-on-throwdown-with-bobby-flay-video-food-network/ http://midtownlunch.com/2010/01/21/wafels-waffles-dinges-on-...). As for using parking spots to serve food, what do you believe creates a greater consumer surplus? A single commuter parking their car for the day or a food truck servicing hundreds of consumers? Also, why do you believe the city will cease to function if consumers have more options for lunch?
- arethuza 14y agoAgreed, I pass food trucks most days and from what I've seen they either use a small external generator or have built-in generators that they run while serving. I'm pretty sure I've never seen one that runs their "main" engine.
- jeffasinger 14y agoSome parking spots that rent to food trucks provide electric too, so no generator running at all. This may be rare in NYC though.
- hatcravat 14y agoSmall generators rarely have emissions control systems anywhere near as good as the main engine (and it most cases, far worse). They usually have a completely open-loop fuel mixture control: a carburetor set to provide an adequate air/fuel ratio when the fuel tank is half full. So, saying that only the generator is running isn't a very effective way to argue that these trucks are low-polluting.
- brk 14y agoWhile sometimes true, have you looked at some of the more modern portable and inverter generators lately? A Honda EU2000i can run the electrical needs of a typical food truck for an entire shift (~5 hours) on 1 gallon of gas.
- drcode 14y agoYou are right of course. However, stationary restaurants tend to have an inherent monopoly for a location and have little incentive to innovate and deliver a decent product. In DC, the food trucks in the downtown area are the most delicious and affordable food option available for this reason. I think if cities mark certain areas as "food trucks allowed" it really improves the quality of life for downtown office workers.
- ssharp 14y ago>You are right of course. However, stationary restaurants tend to have an inherent monopoly for a location and have little incentive to innovate and deliver a decent product. I disagree with this. The failure rate for restaurants is extraordinarily high. Competition for market share is high. That's incentive to innovate and deliver a good product, especially in dense cities like New York. I think why food trucks are able to innovate as much as they can is not because of their lack of monopoly but rather their lack of overhead. It's easy to try out concepts, see if they stick, and iterate as necessary. You can't do that in a traditional restaurant where you have lots of staff, rent, utilities, a larger menu, and furnishings/decorations. I definitely agree that allowing for food trucks improves quality of life for those with access to them, but I'm not willing to attribute their success to breaking up restaurant monopolies.
- bgilroy26 14y agoI think you're right. It isn't the stationary restaurants who are uncompetitive, it is the landlords. I think increasing the supply of "prepared food selling space" should give low-end stationary restaurants more leverage in their rent negotiations. High end restaurants and food trucks do not compete, so it isn't a big deal for them.
- drcode 14y agoI think you're basically right, using the framing of "low overhead" is probably a better way to think of it. But I'm sure you'd still agree that food trucks disrupt existing interests (whether you use the word "monopoly" or not) and that on the whole this is probably a positive thing.
- frankc 14y agoThe engine is not on while serving. However, most trucks do have gasoline powered generators. The city does have a legitimate interest in regulating the usage of shared space but the way it is done now is like it was designed by the Soviet Union. Also, the trucks mostly target the office lunch crowd, not tourists.
- twistedpair 14y agoI don't live in NYC, but I'd figure a spot for a food truck would carry a heavy $10K+ license from the city. Given that I've seen spots sell for $100K+ just to park your car in.
- Thrymr 14y agoI think they mostly use free parking spaces (though I expect they also need a city permit to serve food). That's the thing about parking in Manhattan: it's either really expensive, or it's free. So a substantial portion of traffic at any given time is cruising around trying to find a free parking spot.
- jsherry 14y agoWhile much of what you're saying is true in general, what you fail to point out - and that the author also covered - is that Manhattan is already littered with street food vendors. The problem is that they all suck, and there's a racket (i.e. the commissaries) that's keeping it that way.
- fennecfoxen 14y agoYes. It's a textbook case of regulatory capture and corruption. In New York City, of all places, I know - unthinkable! See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_seeking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_seeking And the entrenched interests always use the excuse that they're "protecting" someone or another from something legitimately unwanted (contaminated food, unwanted idling truck engines) in order to defend the status quo wholesale, rather than, say, trying to improve the status quo in a manner which also avoids those potential issues...
- Shivetya 14y agoNot all regulation is in the public interest, far too much is in the interest of established businesses who do not want competition. Far too many endeavors require a license for no other reason than to make it onerous to compete
- mecha 14y agoI don't think you've ever eaten at these vendors. You're making baseless accusations. A lot of the vendors are iconic locations where you can find a wide variety of palettes which would be impossible to find in NYC at such a cheap price.
- tmorton 14y agoThis is a good point, but the obvious solution is to rent parking spaces at something like a market-clearing price. If a food truck can outbid people who want to park, then the city's economy needs food trucks more than parking spots.
- cmbaus 14y agoExactly. Just like concessions at fairs or festivals are handled. Either there needs to be private space to park the trucks or a way to bid for the space. Using public space for commerce free of charge basically means the owner getting an insane discount on some of the most valuable real estate in the world.
- tmorton 14y agoWhen parking is free, drivers are also getting an "insane discount." If drivers can park for free, food trucks should also park for free - but the best solution is that nobody parks for free.
- cmbaus 14y ago> but the best solution is that nobody parks for free. I don't disagree with that in a location like NY where parking is in very limited supply.
- Aloisius 14y agoIn San Francisco at least, food trucks and carts pay the city a fairly hefty fee to operate and park. It would be difficult to justify a demand system since day passes for parking meters are sold for things like moving trucks well ahead of time (how do you price something on a random Tuesday two weeks ahead of time?). However, the day parking passes are quite expensive (~$200 for 4 spots all day), so I'm not sure that even at peak demand, the city would make more than that in meter fees.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- zeteo 14y ago>the system has a loophole: large swathes of the city are designated as roads, sidewalks, highways (which is a technical term for the road allowance). These areas of the city are completely free to use, for anyone, on the condition that it's a short-term, passing-through, sort of use. You're making it sound as though food trucks stop in the middle of the road to sell their stuff. In fact they use designated parking where it would be completely legal to keep the vehicle for the same duration otherwise. Also, the business model of selling from a truck isn't going against some core concept of land ownership or something (witness ice cream trucks, which have operated with little friction for 80 years or so). The problem is with the "system" defending entrenched interests against innovation and using BS regulations (see the article) to do so.
- nijk 14y agoI actually don't know how ice cream trucks, with their hideous noise pollution, stay on the right side of the law.
- arobbins 14y agoThink of the children...
- BCM43 14y agoThe music has actually has been mostly banned in NYC.
- squozzer 14y agoJust as a humorous aside, in Ye Olden Days, when no one but a prostitute knew the going rate for a condom, the ice cream trucks only rang a bell. But the tunes bring "attention-getting" to another plane. "Jingle Bells" in July? That's when you know the person who picked the songs needs a bit more instruction in American culture or they work for a large retailer.
- warfangle 14y agoTell that to the ice cream truck that idles with the song playing half a block away for twelve hours every saturday...
- defen 14y ago> the white blood cells of the city harass the invading parasites that are trying to damage the city's ability to function My experience with food trucks (in San Francisco and Austin) is that the trucks actually improve the city's ability to function, by providing competition to restaurants and better food options to office workers. Hell, in San Francisco the trucks are so good that they even have an event ("Off the Grid") where all the trucks come together with some live music and it's always packed http://offthegridsf.com/wp-content/themes/otg-2012/images/Off-The-Grid_Fort-Mason-Center.jpg http://offthegridsf.com/wp-content/themes/otg-2012/images/Of...
- wutbrodo 14y agoIf you're interested, OTG has a schedule and shows up all over the city, at various sizes, just in case you didn't know.
- avenger123 14y agoAre you by any chance a restaurant owner? If you are not, please go and canvass the restaurant's in your area and tell them your viewpoint. They would love you, you might even be able to do some lobbying for them.
- pkfrank 14y agoYour argument about not paying rent and using public resources is more valid, I believe, when discussing a company like FreshDirect. They essentially roll-in a mobile grocery store that idles on public streets while making it's deliveries. As others have said: food carts have been posted up all around the city for decades. It's really the new players, such as Fresh Direct, who are gaming the system in a meaningful way.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- peteforde 14y agoYour data is wrong, sir. Most trucks cook with gas, and it would be crazy to idle their main engine. If they need power they use a portable generator. Having just returned from a week in Portland, I can personally vouch for the amazing diversity and quality of the food truck scene and what it's done for the city and people. Price? All over the map, from $2 tacos to $6 noodle plates. The best part is that you can literally try a different one each day. Finally, I know that you are not a racist, but that thing you said about parasites invading was pretty fucking racist. Immigrant entrepreneurs should be encouraged, food trucks are an excellent way to do that, and we get to enjoy amazing food. Portland's restaurant scene is thriving as ever, unless it's Subway you feel sorry for. Heck, many of the best restaurants (Pok Pok) started as a food truck.
- Zimahl 14y agoWe love our food trucks here in Portland and anyone who loves good business should too. Carts have many great advantages: 1) Cheap(er) proof of concepts. Why open a big restaurant that can cost an insane amount of money and (likely) fail? Try out that niche food option and see where it goes, if you need to pivot it's not going to bankrupt you. 2) The American Dream. You can start something with passion and little capital and become fairly successful. 3) We all win because we get great food options. 4) Low overhead if you run it yourself and/or with your family. No need to deal with employees and the accounting that comes with them. 5) Flexibility. A great Thai food cart up near Portland State (Thai Pasta) was closed for a month due to a family trip to Thailand. Try doing that with a brick-and-mortar restaurant.
- shiftpgdn 14y agoFor what its worth a local vietnamese shop closed up for two months while they took their entire staff back to Vietnam. http://huynhrestauranthouston.com/ http://huynhrestauranthouston.com/
- chrisdinn 14y agoQuite a leap from food trucks as parasites to racism. Racism is serious business and I don't think that criticism was in good faith.
- orangethirty 14y agoIn SV speak, aren't food trucks disrupting the restaurant industry? I mean, people praise AirB&B, and the taxi compny (I forget ther name), but the food trucks are doing the same thing: Gaming the system. Oh, I see, we just need YC to launch a food truck startup for it to be OK. Have you ever thought about it from the other side? Maybe these people want to open up a real restaurant but can't due to draconian laws? This is their way of disrupting it.
- GFischer 14y agoWell, in the article it states that laws are LESS draconian for restaurants, but the fixed costs and chance of bankruptcy is much higher. "every mobile-food employee has Health Department certification. The trouble is that he needs to employ four people, each with his own license; if one quits, it can take two months for a new worker to get the proper paperwork." "And stationary restaurants, by the way, require that only a single employee on duty have a Health Department certification."
- chrisdroukas 14y ago>>(I forget ther name) Uber.
- scott_karana 14y agoWouldn't that be 0 MPG? ;)
- mahyarm 14y agoOne thing I really missed about traveling around south east asia were the ubiquitous food carts that were literally everywhere, even in suburban places. It was healthy, cheap food that was extremely fast to get. I've never experienced anything like it in north america. I really hate it when cities try to kill innovations such as food trucks or carts.
- joshu 14y agoOpinion sans clue presented as fact. I guess this is standard for Hacker News these days. Your conclusions are specious and imply that the behavior is totally illegal; it is merely overly difficult. Frankly, you should be ashamed to post such entrepreneur-hostile crap on HN. Food is a high-risk, low-margin business with enormous capacity for differentiation. Because the choices are highly nonlinear, a great deal of experimentation is necessary and useful. So allowing entrepreneurs to de-risk some of that is extremely positive for the greater good.
- MrMan 14y agoyour throwing in "nonlinear" when referring to food choices, and your coinage (no? just copying then?) of the term "de-risk" are what I identify as the most entrepreneur-hostile patterns in this thread. HN used to be better than this!
- joshu 14y agoMy main takeaway from this that you are angry and you don't like some words. As far as I can tell, your argument amounts to "no, YOU are."