4 ms·

U-turn? I don't think so. A company like Microsoft doesn't change its logo and completely redevelop its entire web presence so that for the first time ever its

U-turn? I don't think so. A company like Microsoft doesn't change its logo and completely redevelop its entire web presence so that for the first time ever its entire product line-up is consistent unless it has really, really carefully thought through its plans, and is pretty damn committed to them. And, even if Windows 8 wasn't a rave success, it would be incredibly weak (not to mention idiotic) to cave to pressure from short-sighted consumers and pundits and return to the old desktop. Besides, I doubt anyone at Microsoft is that upset about Windows 8's reception - it was a truly foundational release, with so much work done in so many areas, and so obviously a work in progress, that even modest success was probably a good result. Windows 8 was just the start of a massive transition process for Microsoft. Inevitably there were a lot of rough areas, room to improve, etc. Microsoft will have gained a huge amount of feedback, done a huge amount of work thinking about how to build on 8. I expect to continually up the polish, improve the features, smooth the split between both the new UI and the desktop, as well as improve the transition between different form factors, handle integration for users with multiple devices and so on better - but I don't see any significant reversal of direction. The old desktop is simply too antiquated and if Microsoft were to remain fused to it for any longer it would put them in an extremely dangerous position, given the quantum leaps in UI happening at the moment. The big question mark is how Microsoft is going to handle legacy app support while unifying the overall experience and setting sensible guidelines for what new apps (both Metro and Desktop) should look like. There is a lot of inertia in the Windows ecosystem and it will take a while to shift, but the results will definitely be worth it I think.

ebbv 13y ago
Pass me whatever you're smoking, bud. > I doubt anyone at Microsoft is that upset about Windows 8's reception You are wrong. I mean, I'm sure there are people at Microsoft who don't care. Windows 8 is a failure so far. They need to salvage it. This teenage attitude of it being "weak" to fix it and "cave" to consumer demands doesn't cut it when you're talking about a multi-billion dollar product completely failing in a publicly traded company. Microsoft has a legal obligation to its investors to fix this problem. > but I don't see any significant reversal of direction Again, you're wrong. They're releasing a patch to add in boot to desktop and reintroduce the start button. The only thing they aren't undoing yet is giving a traditional start menu instead of the start screen. Consumers have spoken clearly; they don't like or want Windows 8. It doesn't matter if it's better in your opinion. It's a product for the masses. It's a product for Mom & Dad, they need to be able to use it. And that means that abandoning all the established visual dialogue is a stupid mistake. The lack of sales has shown that, and it's why Microsoft is reversing direction and releasing this patch. There's a reason this news is being covered in the Financial Times; because investors see lack of Windows 8 sales and they get very unhappy.
- corporalagumbo 13y ago
  You might be right - like I said, I think they will try to smooth the desktop-metro split, which was handled clumsily in Windows 8. Again, I think it's a start of a long transition for Microsoft (and the industry in general) and so I don't think it is surprising that there were rough patches. As far as the "consumers have spoken", perhaps they have, but I don't advocate Microsoft staying the course out of some teenage idea of not admitting failure. I advocate it because the potential OS that could evolve from the foundation started with Windows 8 is the only feasible long-term option if Microsoft is to remain competitive over the next ten years. Consumers are short-sighted, and currently the problem for Microsoft is, in a nutshell, maintaining legacy support gracefully while continuing to progress towards the new paradigm.
  - greedo 13y ago
    "As far as the "consumers have spoken", perhaps they have," "Consumers are short-sighted" If only consumers could see the true beauty that Microsoft has created. If they only knew what was best for them.
    - corporalagumbo 13y ago
      You're arguing against a strawman, not me. Try reading my other comments in this thread.
      - greedo 13y ago
        Those are direct quotes from your comments. If you want to retcon them, fine. All I see is a huge set of assertions from you, and now a lot of backpedaling as your arguments are being dismantled.
        corporalagumbo 13y ago
        No, you're completely mistaken sorry.
  - 13y ago
andrewfelix 13y ago
"short-sighted consumers" You lost me here. If Msofts strategic trajectory needs to be explained to consumers to justify Windows 8's existence, they fucked up. Windows 8 should have been a pleasure to use straight out of the box.
- corporalagumbo 13y ago
  You misunderstand me. I don't think Microsoft does everything right. They seem to rush, and they seem to be loathe to admit that their products are anything less than amazing. Generally, their strategy seems to be "leap in with both feet then work out what to do." They're not Apple - Apple is probably crafting their next-gen interface right now and may well release it in a consummately polished single stroke at exactly the opportune moment. Maybe. But I know momentum when I see it and Microsoft is building it. Like I said, I expect the Windows 8+ ecosystem to continually improve and become more and more of a pleasure "straight out of the box." I'm not saying it's great right now or that ultimately Microsoft's gamble will work out, but I am optimistic.
  - greedo 13y ago
    Momentum? Seriously? MS may be pushing internally to develop and expand Win8, Blue or whatever maybe become of it. But it is DOA.
  - astrodust 13y ago
    I think you've got it backwards. Apple "rushes" things, they push hard on an aggressive schedule. They make mistakes, but they correct them more quickly because they iterate faster. Remember Apple releases new versions of iOS annually and OS X is on an 18-24 month release cycle as well. Microsoft tends to release a new version of Windows every three to five years, and omitting the duds that nobody wants (e.g. Vista, Windows ME) the cycle is even longer. What Microsoft rushes is not their development cycle, but their design process. Where Apple would try 100 things and throw out 99 of them, Microsoft in comparison would try 10 and throw out 8. They are getting better, but this Windows 8 serves as an example of how they're prisoner to compromises.
arethuza 13y ago
"doesn't change its logo and completely redevelop its entire web presence so that for the first time ever its entire product line-up is consistent unless it has really, really carefully thought through its plans" Maybe it should have thought through those plans before deciding to rebrand everything based on an unproven user-interface design?
- corporalagumbo 13y ago
  Maybe neither of us are privy to Microsoft's innermost strategic decision-making processes, so neither are qualified to comment on whether they've thought this through? That said, I would argue it is more efficient to expect that one of the world's largest companies would think very carefully about its options before making such a huge leap. One more thing: remember that Microsoft is not gambling on the current Windows 8 UI paradigm itself. Not exactly. Microsoft is gambling on the general style: clean, clear typography matched with bold blocked colour and clear, simple iconography. Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx. Granted it's not perfect, there are still hiccups - the search magnifying glass for instance. I expect those hiccups to be ironed out soon enough though. Regardless, what Microsoft is effectively doing is staking its claim on a visual style, which it clearly thinks will be prime real estate over the next decade. I think it'll pay off handsomely. At the very least they've wiped the slate clean and laid a foundation that will be much easier to tweak in future.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    My first impression that Microsoft perhaps hadn't thought the whole Windows 8 UI through was actually gained at a Microsoft conference. A chap sitting in front of me was attempting to use the Windows 8 tiled interface on a laptop balanced on his lap - he reached out to do something, touching the screen and managing to knock the laptop off his lap onto the floor. I like a lot of Microsoft products (Excel, Windows 7, Visual Studio, SQL Server, Dynamics AX) - so I'm not a Microsoft hater by any means but I do wonder about their judgement in this particular area.
    - 13y ago
Toshio 13y ago
Ya, the only thing I'm asking is that staid old tired microsoft use their enterprise customers as Guinea pigs for their SecureBoot and UI/UX experimentation, and leave us consumers with access to a clean marketplace for devices (read: no infecting motherboards with monopoly-extending signing keys and other DRM schemes). That is all We The People ask.
susi22 13y ago
I'm a long time Windows user. I gave Win8 a try and had to google "How to shut down Windows 8" and "How to close apps in Windows 8". It's ridiculous. Just go to google and type in "how to shut " and it'll suggest you the rest. Same goes for "how to close apps ".
- corporalagumbo 13y ago
  Great. So what? Just because the current product isn't good right now doesn't mean that the direction it is heading in is bad. You might not like Windows 8 that much, and you probably shouldn't. I'd never argue that people should like it. Why should they? It's a janky feature-sparse mashup OS. I use it on desktop myself and while I appreciate the performance bump and some of the new features, I don't have any use for Metro and it took quite a few tweaks for me to be happy with the desktop experience. You're absolutely right, currently it just doesn't offer the 10X product improvement necessary to induce eager consumer behaviour change. Look, Microsoft is making an omelette. But right now all they have to sell is broken eggs. The only source of confusion here is that Microsoft's marketing department trying to convince everyone that they've got an omelette to sell. Look at it like that and there really isn't much to argue about anymore.
  - pgrote 13y ago
    I'm responsible for supporting and developing for groups of people who currently have uncooked omelettes dripping down their chests. Microsoft may have underestimated the learning curve on the new OS for one simple reason: The benefits of learning a new method of interacting with a PC on a daily basis aren't compelling enough.
    - corporalagumbo 13y ago
      Hahaha sorry to hear that man. I feel for you.
  - dm2 13y ago
    You don't do that when you are the market leader with another company worth $140 billion breathing down your neck. That's how you lose the game and go bankrupt and are sitting out on the street wondering WTF just happened. They have a proven product, Windows, which was great because of its ease of use. People literally grew up with Windows and many people rely on its consistent user interface. Then they made it unnecessarily difficult to access the file manager, applications, and the control panel just so that they could push their new and unproven "Metro" design. That's just DUMB.
Spooky23 13y ago
We tie OS ugrades to new hardware. After issuing a couple of hundred really nice ultrabooks with Windows 8, people were literally demanding old Dell 630's that had been upgraded to Windows 7 back. I personally am starting to like Windows 8 -- but the experience is weird and took me about a month to get used to. They should have held the release back until they had Office integrated with the Metro UI. That's a challenge to, because the multi-tasking, window-based desktop metaphor is kind of a key advantage of Windows that you lose with Metro.
- corporalagumbo 13y ago
  You might be right, I'm not arguing that Microsoft's performance and decisions have been 100% correct.
zyb09 13y ago
It was incredible short-sighted to force Metro upon Windows 8 in the first place and hope it will just work out somehow. Metro may be fine on a tablet, but is a inherently bad and tedious user-experience on the PC, and for people using PCs for productivity purposes it's downright useless. Current UI-Idioms have worked and have been improved upon for nearly 3 decades. They are throwing them out in favor of something, that has, as of yet, only found some limited use in smartphones. Yes, Microsoft needs to gain a foothold in the mobile market, and the best way to do that is probably using Windows as leverage. But if they are not careful they are alienating their existing user-base. Things like removing the Start-Button to promote more use of Metro is an incredibile stupid move, and all the feedback prior to release was pointing out these problems. Yet they went ahead, hoping it'll magically work out. It's doesn't, and the only ones who loves it, are sellers of third-party Start-Button Apps ;) Look at how OS X is set up. It shares a tremendous amount of APIs with iOS. Apps on the OS X AppStore feel similar to the ones on the iOS AppStore, yet they manage to incorporate PC UI-Idioms like Windows and Point & Click input. No you can not write one App for all systems, but it allows you to share a lot of common code, and create Apps, that have a unified UE, and still are adapted perfectly for each platform. This direction makes much more sense.

ebbv 13y ago

Pass me whatever you're smoking, bud. > I doubt anyone at Microsoft is that upset about Windows 8's reception You are wrong. I mean, I'm sure there are people at Microsoft who don't care. Windows 8 is a failure so far. They need to salvage it. This teenage attitude of it being "weak" to fix it and "cave" to consumer demands doesn't cut it when you're talking about a multi-billion dollar product completely failing in a publicly traded company. Microsoft has a legal obligation to its investors to fix this problem. > but I don't see any significant reversal of direction Again, you're wrong. They're releasing a patch to add in boot to desktop and reintroduce the start button. The only thing they aren't undoing yet is giving a traditional start menu instead of the start screen. Consumers have spoken clearly; they don't like or want Windows 8. It doesn't matter if it's better in your opinion. It's a product for the masses. It's a product for Mom & Dad, they need to be able to use it. And that means that abandoning all the established visual dialogue is a stupid mistake. The lack of sales has shown that, and it's why Microsoft is reversing direction and releasing this patch. There's a reason this news is being covered in the Financial Times; because investors see lack of Windows 8 sales and they get very unhappy.

corporalagumbo 13y ago
You might be right - like I said, I think they will try to smooth the desktop-metro split, which was handled clumsily in Windows 8. Again, I think it's a start of a long transition for Microsoft (and the industry in general) and so I don't think it is surprising that there were rough patches. As far as the "consumers have spoken", perhaps they have, but I don't advocate Microsoft staying the course out of some teenage idea of not admitting failure. I advocate it because the potential OS that could evolve from the foundation started with Windows 8 is the only feasible long-term option if Microsoft is to remain competitive over the next ten years. Consumers are short-sighted, and currently the problem for Microsoft is, in a nutshell, maintaining legacy support gracefully while continuing to progress towards the new paradigm.
- greedo 13y ago
  "As far as the "consumers have spoken", perhaps they have," "Consumers are short-sighted" If only consumers could see the true beauty that Microsoft has created. If they only knew what was best for them.
  - corporalagumbo 13y ago
    You're arguing against a strawman, not me. Try reading my other comments in this thread.
    - greedo 13y ago
      Those are direct quotes from your comments. If you want to retcon them, fine. All I see is a huge set of assertions from you, and now a lot of backpedaling as your arguments are being dismantled.
      - corporalagumbo 13y ago
        No, you're completely mistaken sorry.
- 13y ago

andrewfelix 13y ago

"short-sighted consumers" You lost me here. If Msofts strategic trajectory needs to be explained to consumers to justify Windows 8's existence, they fucked up. Windows 8 should have been a pleasure to use straight out of the box.

corporalagumbo 13y ago
You misunderstand me. I don't think Microsoft does everything right. They seem to rush, and they seem to be loathe to admit that their products are anything less than amazing. Generally, their strategy seems to be "leap in with both feet then work out what to do." They're not Apple - Apple is probably crafting their next-gen interface right now and may well release it in a consummately polished single stroke at exactly the opportune moment. Maybe. But I know momentum when I see it and Microsoft is building it. Like I said, I expect the Windows 8+ ecosystem to continually improve and become more and more of a pleasure "straight out of the box." I'm not saying it's great right now or that ultimately Microsoft's gamble will work out, but I am optimistic.
- greedo 13y ago
  Momentum? Seriously? MS may be pushing internally to develop and expand Win8, Blue or whatever maybe become of it. But it is DOA.
- astrodust 13y ago
  I think you've got it backwards. Apple "rushes" things, they push hard on an aggressive schedule. They make mistakes, but they correct them more quickly because they iterate faster. Remember Apple releases new versions of iOS annually and OS X is on an 18-24 month release cycle as well. Microsoft tends to release a new version of Windows every three to five years, and omitting the duds that nobody wants (e.g. Vista, Windows ME) the cycle is even longer. What Microsoft rushes is not their development cycle, but their design process. Where Apple would try 100 things and throw out 99 of them, Microsoft in comparison would try 10 and throw out 8. They are getting better, but this Windows 8 serves as an example of how they're prisoner to compromises.

arethuza 13y ago

"doesn't change its logo and completely redevelop its entire web presence so that for the first time ever its entire product line-up is consistent unless it has really, really carefully thought through its plans" Maybe it should have thought through those plans before deciding to rebrand everything based on an unproven user-interface design?

corporalagumbo 13y ago
Maybe neither of us are privy to Microsoft's innermost strategic decision-making processes, so neither are qualified to comment on whether they've thought this through? That said, I would argue it is more efficient to expect that one of the world's largest companies would think very carefully about its options before making such a huge leap. One more thing: remember that Microsoft is not gambling on the current Windows 8 UI paradigm itself. Not exactly. Microsoft is gambling on the general style: clean, clear typography matched with bold blocked colour and clear, simple iconography. Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx. Granted it's not perfect, there are still hiccups - the search magnifying glass for instance. I expect those hiccups to be ironed out soon enough though. Regardless, what Microsoft is effectively doing is staking its claim on a visual style, which it clearly thinks will be prime real estate over the next decade. I think it'll pay off handsomely. At the very least they've wiped the slate clean and laid a foundation that will be much easier to tweak in future.
- arethuza 13y ago
  My first impression that Microsoft perhaps hadn't thought the whole Windows 8 UI through was actually gained at a Microsoft conference. A chap sitting in front of me was attempting to use the Windows 8 tiled interface on a laptop balanced on his lap - he reached out to do something, touching the screen and managing to knock the laptop off his lap onto the floor. I like a lot of Microsoft products (Excel, Windows 7, Visual Studio, SQL Server, Dynamics AX) - so I'm not a Microsoft hater by any means but I do wonder about their judgement in this particular area.
  - 13y ago

Toshio 13y ago

Ya, the only thing I'm asking is that staid old tired microsoft use their enterprise customers as Guinea pigs for their SecureBoot and UI/UX experimentation, and leave us consumers with access to a clean marketplace for devices (read: no infecting motherboards with monopoly-extending signing keys and other DRM schemes). That is all We The People ask.

susi22 13y ago

I'm a long time Windows user. I gave Win8 a try and had to google "How to shut down Windows 8" and "How to close apps in Windows 8". It's ridiculous. Just go to google and type in "how to shut " and it'll suggest you the rest. Same goes for "how to close apps ".

corporalagumbo 13y ago
Great. So what? Just because the current product isn't good right now doesn't mean that the direction it is heading in is bad. You might not like Windows 8 that much, and you probably shouldn't. I'd never argue that people should like it. Why should they? It's a janky feature-sparse mashup OS. I use it on desktop myself and while I appreciate the performance bump and some of the new features, I don't have any use for Metro and it took quite a few tweaks for me to be happy with the desktop experience. You're absolutely right, currently it just doesn't offer the 10X product improvement necessary to induce eager consumer behaviour change. Look, Microsoft is making an omelette. But right now all they have to sell is broken eggs. The only source of confusion here is that Microsoft's marketing department trying to convince everyone that they've got an omelette to sell. Look at it like that and there really isn't much to argue about anymore.
- pgrote 13y ago
  I'm responsible for supporting and developing for groups of people who currently have uncooked omelettes dripping down their chests. Microsoft may have underestimated the learning curve on the new OS for one simple reason: The benefits of learning a new method of interacting with a PC on a daily basis aren't compelling enough.
  - corporalagumbo 13y ago
    Hahaha sorry to hear that man. I feel for you.
- dm2 13y ago
  You don't do that when you are the market leader with another company worth $140 billion breathing down your neck. That's how you lose the game and go bankrupt and are sitting out on the street wondering WTF just happened. They have a proven product, Windows, which was great because of its ease of use. People literally grew up with Windows and many people rely on its consistent user interface. Then they made it unnecessarily difficult to access the file manager, applications, and the control panel just so that they could push their new and unproven "Metro" design. That's just DUMB.

Spooky23 13y ago

We tie OS ugrades to new hardware. After issuing a couple of hundred really nice ultrabooks with Windows 8, people were literally demanding old Dell 630's that had been upgraded to Windows 7 back. I personally am starting to like Windows 8 -- but the experience is weird and took me about a month to get used to. They should have held the release back until they had Office integrated with the Metro UI. That's a challenge to, because the multi-tasking, window-based desktop metaphor is kind of a key advantage of Windows that you lose with Metro.

corporalagumbo 13y ago
You might be right, I'm not arguing that Microsoft's performance and decisions have been 100% correct.

zyb09 13y ago

It was incredible short-sighted to force Metro upon Windows 8 in the first place and hope it will just work out somehow. Metro may be fine on a tablet, but is a inherently bad and tedious user-experience on the PC, and for people using PCs for productivity purposes it's downright useless. Current UI-Idioms have worked and have been improved upon for nearly 3 decades. They are throwing them out in favor of something, that has, as of yet, only found some limited use in smartphones. Yes, Microsoft needs to gain a foothold in the mobile market, and the best way to do that is probably using Windows as leverage. But if they are not careful they are alienating their existing user-base. Things like removing the Start-Button to promote more use of Metro is an incredibile stupid move, and all the feedback prior to release was pointing out these problems. Yet they went ahead, hoping it'll magically work out. It's doesn't, and the only ones who loves it, are sellers of third-party Start-Button Apps ;) Look at how OS X is set up. It shares a tremendous amount of APIs with iOS. Apps on the OS X AppStore feel similar to the ones on the iOS AppStore, yet they manage to incorporate PC UI-Idioms like Windows and Point & Click input. No you can not write one App for all systems, but it allows you to share a lot of common code, and create Apps, that have a unified UE, and still are adapted perfectly for each platform. This direction makes much more sense.